Game News Pillars of Eternity Kickstarter Update #71: The Heavy Hitters: Rogues and Rangers

[Zed]

I think it would be nice with an MCA/Ziets update for a change. It's only been art and Sawyer's numbers for a long time now.

 

[Lancehead]

The 'adra' is a lore detail, one that sounds like a patchwork. Considering they have trouble accounting for it just in those screens, it's probable it won't be accounted for properly in the rest of the game.

Are you talking about Adra itself or the images? It's definitelly accounted for in those images (though of course they aren't so well done currently), and lore/quest wize Josh has been talking about Adra since the beginning of the kickstarter, so it seems like it would come up in quests/etc.

I just see people whining for...no reason i can discern?

Not for no reason. Such details are often the difference between appreciation and scorn. Generally, players appreciate a game world when they discover a small detail that makes sense in a larger context. If a detail requires the designers to come up with an explanation, then something's wrong.

 

[Infinitron]

I think it would be nice with an MCA/Ziets update for a change. It's only been art and Sawyer's numbers for a long time now.

George Ziets hasn't been employed on Pillars of Eternity for a long time now. An update by Eric Fenstermaker would interesting, though.

If a detail requires the designers to come up with an explanation, then something's wrong.

wat

 

[Zed]

I think it would be nice with an MCA/Ziets update for a change. It's only been art and Sawyer's numbers for a long time now.

George Ziets hasn't been employed on Pillars of Eternity for a long time now.

I know that. Doesn't mean he couldn't contribute to a lore-ish update.

 

[Rake]

George Ziets hasn't been employed on Pillars of Eternity for a long time now. An update by Eric Fenstermaker would interesting, though.

It would be nicer still if Ziets is hired full time as project lead for Obsidian's next kickstarter...
I'm curious about the next game, given that all their "heavy hitter" names are busy with PoE.

 

[Lancehead]

If a detail requires the designers to come up with an explanation, then something's wrong.

wat

Clearly, some people didn't expect adra means anything goes in architecture. So Sawyer assured us all after the last update that that is indeed the case.

 

[Scruffy]

the arch thing is retarded, and if you don't think it is, you're retarded too.

Spoiler

:asd:

that reminded me of the NGI Ultima Online forums and stuff

 

[Johannes]

The 'adra' is a lore detail, one that sounds like a patchwork. Considering they have trouble accounting for it just in those screens, it's probable it won't be accounted for properly in the rest of the game.

Are you talking about Adra itself or the images? It's definitelly accounted for in those images (though of course they aren't so well done currently), and lore/quest wize Josh has been talking about Adra since the beginning of the kickstarter, so it seems like it would come up in quests/etc.

I just see people whining for...no reason i can discern?

The point is that having 'adra' is not enough to handwave the stupidity of these ruins. What the fuck happened there? Somebody cast a 'vanish' spell to the roof, but missed these random bits and now they still hang on by motha fucking adra? It's a ridiculous explanation and paints rest of the world in a silly light as well.

Actually no explanation would've been better than coming up with the adra nonsense, then you could just say that it's a somewhat silly oversight even if the areas themselves would look shitty, now we know it's not just the stupidity of a single artist but that the whole team is partaking in it.

 

[FeelTheRads]

It's definitelly accounted for in those images

How? Where?

And you think magic mortar is good lore. OK? Do you think it's good lore that that magic mortar fails right in the center of arches? There's no explanation for that. I'm sure Sawyer could come up with one, though. What if at some point those people befriended a race of giants but upon inviting them in their homes they found out they couldn't fit so they took off the roofs? Pretty good, imo.

Just fucking live with the fact that Sawyer made up this shit to explain some artist mistake. It's in the same category of made up shit like that with the really strong books.
Funny how Roguey didn't say anything about this after calling the Obsidian artists retarded or whatever. Guess now it's awesome once it's Sawyer approved.

 

[Jasede]

I promise you Sawyer had this image made on purpose in response to that keystone business so he can prove he planned this magical cement cum glue all along.

 

[Infinitron]

The point is that having 'adra' is not enough to handwave the stupidity of these ruins. What the fuck happened there?

Do you think it's good lore that that magic mortar fails right in the center of arches? There's no explanation for that.

They are ruins, you know. Why do some parts of building collapse while others stay up? Nobody remembers.

Maybe the sun wears out the adra, leaving the top parts more exposed, and the process occurs unevenly due to the tree canopy shielding the structure from the sun.

Or maybe the top parts are just somehow more vulnerable to gravity (ie it's not really a proper arch).

Just fucking live wit the fact that Sawyer made up this shit to explain some artist mistake.

You know that you can't simultaneously believe that Sawyer is a detail-obsessed maniac bent on fixing everything according to his master plan and that he's making shit up on the fly. Pick one.

 

[Copper]

I guess a top down perspective means their artists cannot into ceilings? Some people are into art, and those people are bitching for the same reason they complained about the rivers on the original map, which Sawyer at least owned his mistake on - it looks like people at Obsidian didn't think things through, and now have used a lore element (adra) to paper-over their artistic deficiencies.

In this image, where the hell are the arches going? They'll never meet in the center, there's no hint of inner pillars, there is no form or function, other than to allow the player an unobstructed view inside the ruin, which could have been accomplished in a less dumb way with a bit more though. To be honest, this one isn't nearly as bad as the previous example, where the fact that there was very little consistency in the spacing of the pillars was even dumber than the missing keystones.

Obsidian's never really impressed me with art direction, but Eternity's looking much better than their typical stuff, if a bit generic/rule-of-cool overwhelming other concerns. I don't really get any sort of frontier vibe from the town/stronghold stuff we've been shown, or any though into the impact both guns and magic would have on fortifications, for example. Hopefully Sawyer's attention to encounter design will make for environments that do challenge different classes, since everyone knows minion-nuking wizards, etc. exist.

I don't have any problem with Adra as such - I'm disappointed if impossible arches are what Josh meant by cool fantasy architecture, though, I was hoping for something to at least rival Morrowind's designs.

 

[FeelTheRads]

You know that you can't simultaneously believe that Sawyer is a detail-obsessed maniac bent on fixing everything according to his master plan and that he's making shit up on the fly. Pick one.

Let go of internet psychology, bro, it doesn't work.
There no fucking relationship between the two. It's a fucking excuse. Everybody makes excuses. Some people just make shitty excuses.

 

[Infinitron]

Okay, let's take this to the next level, then.

Duraframe300 You should attempt to contact one of Eternity's artists and ask if Sawyer told them about adra before they started modelling these structures.

 

[Scruffy]

the reason "it's magic!" is always a stupid one, even in high magic settings.

 

[Johannes]

Maybe the sun wears out the adra, leaving the top parts more exposed, and the process occurs unevenly due to the tree canopy shielding the structure from the sun.

Or maybe the top parts are just somehow more vulnerable to gravity (ie it's not really a proper arch)

The problem with these explanations is that they are dumb as fuck. Sure, maybe in the PoE world rocks are all fundamentally different than ours, their sun is somehow totally different than what we have, gravity functions in a different way. But why would you introduce such things for apparently no reason, just to be able to have ruins that look silly?

Just fucking live wit the fact that Sawyer made up this shit to explain some artist mistake.

You know that you can't simultaneously believe that Sawyer is a detail-obsessed maniac bent on fixing everything according to his master plan and that he's making shit up on the fly. Pick one.

Damned if I know if Sawyer explicitly asked for crap architechture or if he was trying to cover for someone elses mistake. Neither scenario paints him in a good light - he's deliberately drawing attention to this shit with his hacky explanations, if you want to cover up something stupid you try and sweep it under the rug and not try and bullshit your audience that shit slurping is actually cool.

 

[Infinitron]

But wacky, impossible-looking architecture DOES look aesthetically cool to many people. That's why he's doing this.

 

[Lancehead]

But wacky, impossible-looking architecture DOES look aesthetically cool to many people. That's why he's doing this.

In such a case, he should simply say that the ruins are like that because they wanted something cool/wacky looking. If he gives a serious explanation, it will be criticised accordingly.

 

[Johannes]

I doubt the adra bullshit makes it cooler in anybody's eyes. If it was just stupid ruin formations I could just shrug and proceed, but with the man trying to convince me that it actually makes sense is just insulting the audiences intelligence.

 

[Rake]

But wacky, impossible-looking architecture DOES look aesthetically cool to many people. That's why he's doing this.

In such a case, he should simply say that the ruins are like that because they wanted something cool/wacky looking. If he gives a serious explanation, it will be criticised accordingly.

He said that impossible-looking architecture was the plan from the get go, but he doesn't like to hand wave problems, so he came with an explanation why it happens. He didn't plan for the aspies obviously

 

[Infinitron]

In such a case, he should simply say that the ruins are like that because they wanted something cool/wacky looking. If he gives a serious explanation, it will be criticised accordingly.

I doubt the adra bullshit makes it cooler in anybody's eyes. If it was just stupid ruin formations I could just shrug and proceed, but with the man trying to convince me that it actually makes sense is just insulting the audiences intelligence.

You probably haven't been around many nerds, then. Most of the fanbase of these types of games LOVES it when wacky stuff is justified in a pseudo-realistic plausible fashion.

We even have an entire genre of superhero movies these days based around the idea of pseudo-realistic explantions for wacky premises, pioneered by Christopher Nolan. People swallow this stuff up.

I kind of like it myself, but I can see why some people might prefer that wackiness never be explained. It's a matter of taste.

 

[Scruffy]

Most of the fanbase of these types of games LOVES it when wacky stuff is justified in a pseudo-realistic plausible fashion

infinitron went all bethesda, somebody call a doctor

 

[Infinitron]

Most of the fanbase of these types of games LOVES it when wacky stuff is justified in a pseudo-realistic plausible fashion

infinitron went all bethesda, somebody call a doctor

Excuse me? Do you really not agree that typical RPG nerds just love obsessive lore detail, especially lore that happens to dovetail with the genre conventions that they love?

A more sophisticated example of this is what they've done with the Monk class in this game. By introducing the Wounds/flagellation mechanic and justifying it within the game's lore, they've invented a rational premise for the classical unarmored monk archetype. The kind of people that play hardcore RPGs tend to find things like that to be exceedingly clever.

I do too, although at the same time I'm self-aware enough to see that it's all a bit silly.

 

[Scruffy]

Most of the fanbase of these types of games LOVES it when wacky stuff is justified in a pseudo-realistic plausible fashion

infinitron went all bethesda, somebody call a doctor

Excuse me? Do you really not agree that typical RPG nerds just love obsessive lore detail, especially lore that happens to dovetail with the genre conventions that they love?

A more sophisticated example of this is what they've done with the Monk class in this game. By introducing the Wounds/flagellation mechanic and justifying it within the game's lore, they've invented a rational premise for the classical unarmored monk archetype. The kind of people that like RPGs tend to find things like that to be exceedingly clever.

I do too, although at the same time I'm self-aware enough to see that it's all a bit silly.

sure. arches who stay up because "it's magic!", while the rest of the structure somehow collapsed anyway are not clever, though.
it's more along the lines of: "this super mutant is immune to radiations but will not go inside an irradiated room because THIS IS YOUR TIME TO DO STUFF".


edit
please note that I AM, in fact, discussing obsessive lore details. I just want them to make some kind of sense.

 

[Infinitron]

while the rest of the structure somehow collapsed anyway

OK, I'll try to ask Sawyer how the structure collapsed. Although the answer is of course "why does any other structure collapse?"

Adra doesn't make a structure impervious, it just means that when it does collapse (for whatever reason) certain things might remain "stuck on" in an unusual manner.