PoE engagement disabled in IE Mod pros and cons

[Seari]

I didn't mind AoO in Nwn2 because I disabled AI, and because you could just ignore it due to Spring Attack for fighters, tumble for the agile squishies and invisibility/defensive casting for mages.

 

[Sensuki]

Woa talk about sand in the vagina. First of all, the targeting mechanic may be unfortunate for trolls but for everyone else - and in many cases for the trolls as well - them targeting weaker enemies is a problem for you. So the AI is clearly smarter than in the IE.

You kind of defeat your own argument when you try to "disprove" that IE enemies doesn't swap targets. I mean say you're correct, and they do swap to the nearest character sometimes... That character is almost always a tank. So just sending your two or three tanks and a summon in front of you will e-z tank everything and the dumb enemies will usually not bother to go for the back row. Engagement system wins, again.

No, the targeting is simpler than most of the IE games and once you understand what makes enemies target certain characters all you have to do is just make a small change to correct it, and/or abuse it to your advantage. Targeting could be a lot better than it currently is.

Melee characters swapping targets to backline characters is fucking suicide because they'll suffer disengagement attacks from your characters, pathfinding in combat is much worse than the Infinity Engine games and you can kite them into oblivion because the re-targeting in this game is really slow.

A lot of the targeting also forces you to play a certain way - if enemies are going to make binary decisions based on low armor or low deflection and forces you into the very thing that Josh Sawyer is afraid of - degenerate gameplay.

Removing tactical options from the equation only makes the combat more banal. It just isn't fun, unless you like doing the same thing every encounter over and over again, which is pretty much what I've done since about half way through Act 1.

I guess since I really enjoyed the combat of the Infinity Engine games and the developers and their target audience clearly don't - I guess I just aint part of the goonsquad.

 

[hiver]

Removing tactical options from the equation only makes the combat more banal. It just isn't fun, unless you like doing the same thing every encounter over and over again, which is pretty much what I've done since about half way through Act 1.

exactly, thats why it should be a fighter unique skill, as something the player actively uses with purpose, with tasty tactical options and additions, like this:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/engagement-system-solution.98075/

 

[Athelas]

I'd say the A.I. in PoE is actually more sophisticated than the IE games (or at least BG1), but thanks to the engagement system and the fact that enemies will typically use the weakest and most useless abilities and spells the A.I. ends up coming across as worse.

 

[Sensuki]

It's more sophisticated than BG1, I already said that. I don't think it's as good as Icewind Dale: Heart of Winter.

 

[jagged-jimmy]

Let me guess, you prefer turn-based games?

No, he is trolling you.


Anyway, the engagement is a problem for more things then you look at.

While it may serve some purpose to have it all disabled that doesnt really improve things as Engagement could if it was an actual skill the player had control over and options about how to change and improve, through talents and so on.
And if it was an ability only a specific class had, not every creature in the game.

... there is still people repeating how its all "ah you cant turn your back on a guy you know...?" or "you caen turn ye back on a Lion!"
But thats not what is actually happening in the game. In the game its just this automatic invisible hit you get from every single thing if you try to move in any way while "engaged" and you are engaged with everything, because just everyone have that ability. There is no such specifics or details about it to make it only happening when its a "guy" or if "you turn your back", or against "some animals"

It doesnt make any sense whatsover for every creature to have this ability, not if you look at it fro internal PoE setting and lore logic point of view, or if you look at it from an actual natural realism point of view.

Says who? Anyone who can attack in melee gets a free AoO in melee engagement. Makes sense for me. I am not saying it cannot be improved, but there has to be punishment from moving around melee opponents.

 

[Sensuki]

You know you can attack moving targets right? Moving targets aren't attacking you back, either.

 

[Shevek]

The game plays fine vanilla for me. Engagement makes sense and there are sufficient ways to regain mobility when you need to. Some way of doing 5foot steps to move a few pixels positioning wise should be worked in but that's the last thing the system needs at this point.

Overall, I think it deepens the combat, honestly. It certainly deepens character and party creation since movement is a serious consideration. I tend to take Grimoire slam and find that very useful in helping my back line get away from the stray melee combatant, for example.

 

[Gord]

So far most arguments I've heard against engagement system per se seem boil down to "doesn't belong into a realtime game" (why?) and "I preferred the way IE games played" (then keep playing them, I guess, or use a mod).

However, there's no doubt that the engagement system as it currently is could need some improvements. There seem to be a few bugs around it and movement is currently handled overly punishing. I'd also advocate for some additional possibilities to deal with engagement for non-combat classes, esp. early on.
Also didn't someone say that the Shadows' teleport is basically bugged as well atm.?

 

[Jarpie]

Disengagement attack should only happen if the enemy is between actions, ie. no disengagement attack if they're casting spell or already hitting someone else.

 

[Ziem]

disabling engagement system

pros : the system sucks ass
cons : the game wasnt designed for playing with disabled engagement system

 

[jagged-jimmy]

You know you can attack moving targets right? Moving targets aren't attacking you back, either.

With delay, according to rules. So that is not a direct punishment.
I don't get it, what is exactly the problem? You want to run away from melee freely? Because freedom? It does not seem cheesy to you?

Engagement is just a design decision to emulate AoO. You cannot say it sucks, just because.

 

[Shevek]

I dont find free movement tactical either. Doing donuts to bait bad ai or pop potions or whatever is shitty but it was a regular 'tactic' in the IE games.

 

[LizardWizard]

Disengagement attack should only happen if the enemy is between actions, ie. no disengagement attack if they're casting spell or already hitting someone else.

The game is already easy and that would make it jokingly easy considering it completely favors the player.

 

[Sensuki]

I don't get it, what is exactly the problem?

How about you fucking read what I say, instead.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...engagement&o=date&c[node]=96&c[user][0]=15843

 

[jagged-jimmy]

I don't get it, what is exactly the problem?

How about you fucking read what I say, instead.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...engagement&o=date&c[node]=96&c[user][0]=15843

Seriously, i didn't see a single one 100% valid argument against it. Just subjective opinions, which Sensuki seems to suggest is the only truth. With proper positioning it's almost never an issue. And for times where someone engages your casters, well tough luck - handle it.

 

[hiver]

Let me guess, you prefer turn-based games?

No, he is trolling you.


Anyway, the engagement is a problem for more things then you look at.

While it may serve some purpose to have it all disabled that doesnt really improve things as Engagement could if it was an actual skill the player had control over and options about how to change and improve, through talents and so on.
And if it was an ability only a specific class had, not every creature in the game.

... there is still people repeating how its all "ah you cant turn your back on a guy you know...?" or "you caen turn ye back on a Lion!"
But thats not what is actually happening in the game. In the game its just this automatic invisible hit you get from every single thing if you try to move in any way while "engaged" and you are engaged with everything, because just everyone have that ability. There is no such specifics or details about it to make it only happening when its a "guy" or if "you turn your back", or against "some animals"

It doesnt make any sense whatsover for every creature to have this ability, not if you look at it from internal PoE setting and lore logic point of view, or if you look at it from an actual natural realism point of view.

Says who? Anyone who can attack in melee gets a free AoO in melee engagement. Makes sense for me. I am not saying it cannot be improved, but there has to be punishment from moving around melee opponents.

Yes?

As i said, such "punishment" should be something under control of a player, as a skill, with options and all ?
Not as automatic invisible extra hit that every creature in the game does, automatically - from wolves to pigs to every zombie and skeleton and sludge and whatever have you.

You should be able to move in combat - actually, as there is no combat where you really have to stand firmly in place else you die - which is just hilarious to think about. Not to mention how good old "two dudes stand in place and swing away" was criticized since these kinds of games began.
Only now its really systemic.

Did you read what you quoted or thats just for show?
Being able to play with it as it is - is not an achievement. It requires no special effort, the point is that it sucks for specific reasons explained dozens of times so far.

If only appropriate classes and creatures had it, it would be in the game in appropriate quantities, and more directly useful, therefore better tactically and fun.

 

[Lord Andre]

Not a big fan of engagement but the game seems to be built around it. And it's not as restricting as people make it out to be. Prone/paralyze and walk away. Besides my 2 tanks everyone else in my party is running this way and that way to get flanks or positioning for cone aoes and so on. Blind/fear/protection aoe combos can give you enough seconds to reposition everybody, charm/dominate can get you out...

 

[Ellef]

As expected most people acting under the impression that disabling engagement means easy mode. Trolls are just one enemy that become more interesting with it disabled. If anything, my squishies in the backline become even more vulnerable with it off.

So far most arguments I've heard against engagement system per se seem boil down to "doesn't belong into a realtime game" (why?)

TB games can have slow units being strung along by faster ones without AoO, its like everyone having the spring attack feat. Simultaneous actions means that if I stop to attack him, he'll smack me back so I don't see the need it.

but there has to be punishment from moving around melee opponents.

Yeah, they can continue to attack me. There's already an opportunity cost to moving, you're not attacking. Now engagement is asking us to have as bad intelligence as their AI.

I like how you're accusing someone with literally hundreds of posts on the subject of saying 'it sucks, just cause'.

 

[Sensuki]

Yeah, head in the sand.

 

[Kingston]

Engagement just seems to lock down fights immediately, so you just end up re-doing the encounter until you get your positioning just right. Combat in general is really fast, so you don't really get to make many decisions during combat, instead you adjust and do it again, adjust and do it again (instead of adjusting during combat).

 

[kris]

Time to banish the fucking lies in this thread.
AoOs are a mechanic designed for a turn-based game and they do not work in real-time games. AoOs in NWN1 and NWN2 were fucking terrible. The NWN2 implementation was definitely the worst of the two, and IMO Engagement is just as bad, if not worse than that.

In another thread about how Rtwp sucks I said that AoO is a mechanic that is surerly missing from most of them. It is needed to take away silly tactics and so not the only way to block away your casters is to physically stand in the way.

If it is badly implemented then it is badly implemented, but in my eyes AoO is very important in a rtwp. Basically anyone already engaged should only be able to have an AoO on the one he is engaged with. If not engaged then on anyone passing by, but obviously not two at the same time.
Maybe to advanced to put in... but an experienced character might get an ability to have an AoO while engaged, simulating stepping back and hitting someone passing by.

For sure in real combat you would never just run past someone with a sword. Unless you are Mel Gibson or Tom Cruise. They can do it.

 

[Sensuki]

Haha okay buddy, the only games that have AoOs in them that are RT games are NWN1, NWN2, Pillars of Eternity and Blood Bowl RTwP mode (which nobody plays). Every other game doesn't have them, because designers of other games aren't turn-based designer wannabes that try and implement turn-based mechanics into real-time games.

Ever heard of the word "abstraction" ?

 

[Shevek]

Half the stuff in these games (RPGs in general I mean) was designed for turn based since its all based on PnP. So?

 

[Dreaad]

I hate the engagement system for all the reasons stated by others before me. I think there is room for such a system, but super powered physical attacks as punishment aren't the way to go about it. Maybe if it was something like an attack against your fortitude vs being sent prone THEN I could get behind it as a gamey system that adds something. That's a situation with a risk vs reward mechanic. In the current system once you are engaged, that's it, locked down until you or the enemy is dead. If we're talking about realism being knocked down by tangle of limbs while trying to backpeddle is far more realistic than everyone having an invisible 3rd arm that's waiting to pounce on anyone foolish enough to "turn around". At the very least they could have added 2 movement speed options, and if you are walking not running, engagement doesn't trigger. Give people some sort of option, not just this retarded crap.