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Project Direction and Writing in RPGs - Do RPGs actually benefit from having more than one writer?

Kyl Von Kull

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I don't. PoE was a mixed bag. Don't know about Deadfire, don't care.

But not being able to delegate is highly detrimental if you're a project director. You can't do everything yourself. You'll burn out. That's why there are other leads.

It’s not about being able to delegate. If you’re the project lead, you have one job above all else: make sure everybody’s on the same page. Doesn’t mean you need to do everything yourself or micromanage, you just need to communicate: this is what we’re doing, this is why we’re doing it that way, this is the tone/voice we’re shooting for.

Some of this can be in the form of delegation. He could say: Eric’s the narrative lead, he’s got the narrative vision, take your cues from him. But I don’t think Sawyer did that because both POE and Deadfire are so schizophrenic, and we can see tons of Sawyer’s preferences in the finished game. He hates melodrama, he likes low-key stories, and low fantasy. This stuff is all over the place in Pillars, and it is totally at odds with Fenstermaker’s main plot.

As I’ve said before:

Okay, but none of the infinity engine games were noted for their gritty realism. I think POE’s narrative failings have more to do with deliberate decisions. Lack of talent doesn’t explain why Eric felt compelled to explain everything. It doesn’t explain why the world lacks the fantastical elements that all the IE games shared. Sawyer wanted to make a low fantasy setting and it shows. He wanted to prioritize worldbuilding over story. When you go into your D&D knockoff CRPG saying we can’t have orcs popping out of portals because then nothing in the setting makes sense you’re really gimping your writers.

Unfortunately, that really cuts against the story they settled on: “yeah, it’s about a conflict between gods, but let’s keep it low key.”

It’s not like they were trying to make MotB with better combat. Everything about Mask of the Betrayer is fucking epic. POE tries as hard as it can to not be epic. That was a choice.

Plus, at the end of the day, the buck needs to stop somewhere. Sawyer was the project director. If he wasn’t actually, you know, directing, that’s on him.

Also, he did a terrible job of delegating given that he wrote his own fucking companion. I get the sense Sawyer focused on what he was interested in—the systems, the setting, Pallegina—and didn’t have the time or the inclination to be a true showrunner. His previous stints as project lead were on games with established settings where he could rely on excellent narrative leads to do a lot of the heavy lifting—Avellone and Gonzalez respectively. Clearly neither Fenstermaker nor Patel are in their league.

I have a very hard time imagining that Leonard Boyarsky will make the same mistakes.
 

Roguey

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Might I remind you this wasn't "Fuck you: Suck my Dick: Josh Sawyer's Dream RPG Experience", but rather the game that was deemed best for Obsidian? It wasn't Sawyer's call to make an IE clone, so why would he act like it was his own thing rather than a collaborative effort in which others had plenty of influence?

Funny thing, it was his call. He told Feargus that Obsidian needed to do an IE successor before someone else could make money off of something "rightfully" theirs, and told him he'd quit and start his own studio to do it if they didn't. He had no passion for the concept itself, but he did care a lot about giving Obsidian its own Baldur's Gate (and ultimately failed given BG2's level of success versus Deadfire's; that lack of passion).
 

JarlFrank

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Yet TV, film, theatre, and opera directors do manage to imprint their views on their productions even though the teams are even bigger. How come and what's the crucial difference?
Because you don't have different writers each one trying to express their own vision.

Usually in a game you have one lead writer and the other writers follow his vision.
 

Quillon

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Wasn't he a control freak, defining everything he can then spending certain amount of his time asking the team what they are doing by their office doors? :P
Not at all. He became such an unreachable wraith that Patel ended up becoming the de facto writing lead since everyone started coming to her for direction.

btw. Is this an educated guess or do you have hidden cams placed in Obs HQ?
 

Deleted Member 22431

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Could you elaborate on why it is a bad idea?

Because it's actually a pretty good idea that guarantees a certain consistency for the game.

1. Because different writers will vary in tone, depth, style and experience. See, for example, how FO2 is such a mixed bag.

2. It follows from 1 that you have a more cohesive world when it is conceived by one person. See, for example, how PS:T is more engrossing game because it has Avellone’s imprint all over it, and the worst parts of the game are not his doing.

Less is more.
 

JarlFrank

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Could you elaborate on why it is a bad idea?

Because it's actually a pretty good idea that guarantees a certain consistency for the game.

1. Because different writers will vary in tone, depth, style and experience. See, for example, how FO2 is such a mixed bag.

2. It follows from 1 that you have a more cohesive world when it is conceived by one person. See, for example, how PS:T is more engrossing game because it has Avellone’s imprint all over it, and the worst parts of the game are not his doing.

Less is more.

Yes. When the development structure is actually good, the lead writer is the guy who conceives the cohesive world. The other writers are assigned certain fields by the lead writer and are instructed what to do with them. A good lead writer will give them appropriate jobs and appropriate direction.

For example, he'll say "This town here has been wracked by the plague and assailed by orcish incursions for over a year now. The people are desperate and relief is hard to come by as the shipping route to that town is only safe in the spring. You, Mary, are going to write quests for this town. Try to keep the general atmosphere desperate, make quests that reflect the destitute situation of the people. You could have a quest featuring a woman who is willing to sell her children into slavery just to afford another loaf of bread to survive one more week. That's the kind of tone we want to go for with this town. I chose you to write the quests for this town because I know tragic stories and quests with harsh choices are your forte. Meanwhile Bill over here will write some quests for the lavish capital city, where food is plentiful as it's located in a fertile river valley, and there are several political factions trying to influence the decisions of the crown. I'm assigning him to that area because I know political intrigue is his greatest strength, and he's also good at writing comic relief which fits better into the decadent capital city than the other areas of the game world."

This way, the writers know what they're supposed to do, they're assigned to regions where their writing style is the most fitting, and they have enough wiggle room to let their creativity shine while still having enough direction to stay consistent within the central vision.

And of course the lead writer should do some things on his own, like writing most of the lore, the main quest line, and the basic worldbuilding.
 

Deleted Member 22431

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The other writers are assigned certain fields by the lead writer and are instructed what to do with them.
You don’t need other writers.

A good lead writer will give them appropriate jobs and appropriate direction.
Expressions such as “lead writer” and “narrative designer” are the signs of the times. The cRPG apocalypse is near. Pure decadence.

You, Mary, are going to write quests for this town. Try to keep the general atmosphere desperate, make quests that reflect the destitute situation of the people.
And since Mary is a completely different person, the resulting location will leave a lot to be desired.

This way, the writers know what they're supposed to do, they're assigned to regions where their writing style is the most fitting, and they have enough wiggle room to let their creativity shine while still having enough direction to stay consistent within the central vision.
Their styles and competence will still be different.

You are just repeating the bad practices that are prevalent today in the cRPG industry as if they were solid advices.
 

Deleted Member 22431

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Age of Decadence development time: 2005-2015.

Not everyone has that luxury.
The development was plagued by engine issues, lack of art, lack of familiarity with development processes, etc, etc. The writing didn't take 10 years.
 

StrongBelwas

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Its pretty much impossible for 1 writer to write write all the dialogues, characters, quests, lore, descriptions, banter in a big RPG with a lot of text.
So Age of Decadence and Planescape Torment don't exist then.
Not only was Avellone not the only writer on Torment, his workload nearly made him breakdown and quit the industry. Good luck repeating that.
 

Deleted Member 22431

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Not only you can have the same amount of text with one writer, but you can reasonably expect that bad writers that made irrelevant contributions in recent cRPGs would make much more impact if they had the opportunity to conceive a game from scratch. This is so obvious that shock me how you people keep repeating the same nonsense about writers team. Ask yourselves: how many of these so called narrative designers at Obsidian would enjoy much more their work if they were allowed to create their own world? It’s an ungrateful task otherwise.
 

Deleted Member 22431

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Not only was Avellone not the only writer on Torment, his workload nearly made him breakdown and quit the industry. Good luck repeating that.
If you had the chance to remove Colin's parts, the game would be better, not worse.
 

JarlFrank

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The other writers are assigned certain fields by the lead writer and are instructed what to do with them.
You don’t need other writers.

If you want to deliver an AA game within a reasonable timeframe, you do. And anything Obsidian does is AA. They're not a small indie studio that can afford longer development times or shorter content, because they have certain expectations to fulfill and their production costs are higher. It is what it is. They could fire half their staff and downgrade from AA to a higher-profile indie, but they won't do that because their current model works for them. If you have 6 major locations and each location should have a dozen quests, you need more than one writer.

A good lead writer will give them appropriate jobs and appropriate direction.
Expressions such as “lead writer” and “narrative designer” are the signs of the times. The cRPG apocalypse is near. Pure decadence.

The lead writer is the guy who is the boss of the other writers. He should also be expected to know some shit about quest and game design if he is worth his pay. It's not decadence and not some kind of fuzzy term like "narrative designer". It has a clear job description: guy who does most of the writing and instructs the other writers on what to do. It is a necessary position within a team with more than one writer.

You, Mary, are going to write quests for this town. Try to keep the general atmosphere desperate, make quests that reflect the destitute situation of the people.
And since Mary is a completely different person, the resulting location will leave a lot to be desired.

Nice selective quoting here. You missed this part:
I chose you to write the quests for this town because I know tragic stories and quests with harsh choices are your forte.
A good lead writer assigns the writers that work with him to jobs he knows they can do. A good lead writer knows the writing style of the writers who work for him, knows their strengths and weaknesses, and therefore knows what they can do best and what they can't do.

This way, the writers know what they're supposed to do, they're assigned to regions where their writing style is the most fitting, and they have enough wiggle room to let their creativity shine while still having enough direction to stay consistent within the central vision.
Their styles and competence will still be different.

You are just repeating the bad practices that are prevalent today in the cRPG industry as if they were solid advices.

Their competence should be on at least a semi-professional level else the problem isn't the game having more than one writer, the problem is that some writers just aren't good at their jobs. When hiring writers, you hire those that are good fit to your game.
Let's say you're making a new game and need to hire a couple of new people for it. You know the plan calls for having a lot of quests in the game. That requires writers (who are also quest designers by the way; RPG writers should be able to design non-linear quests, that's part of the job qualification). You publish a job offer for 3 new writers. You get 10 applications. You interview the applicants. You choose the 3 people whose skills and writing styles fit the best to your game. Simple as that.

You're acting as if the leads of a game don't know what the people who work for them are like. That's not how a well-organized team works. In a well-organized team the leads know what the guys working under them are like, and can give them tasks that play to their strengths.

The problems you mention only happen when the team is being mismanaged.
Which was exactly the case in, say, Torment: Numenera.
 

Prime Junta

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Hey Politician, you speak with such confidence that I wonder about your qualifications. Are you a writer or a game designer? If so, which games have you worked on?

Cuz from where I'm standing it sure sounds like you're blowing smoke out of your arse.
 

Strange Fellow

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Does his position as the counterproductive and unpaid marketing lead on Age of Decadence count?
 

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