Game News Project Eternity Kickstarter Update #26: $4 Million Stretch Goal - Chris Avellone Will Play Arcanum

[Tigranes]

Forecast July 2013:

Lulz ensues as Cleve becomes the one developer found to be not bulshitting and Grimoire gets released before P:E and W2 to critical acclaim. Codex dissolves in a litany of madness as Avellone and Fargo cock slurpers an hero themselves out of despair, effectively ridding the codex of 99.9% of its userbase. Meanwhile, Blakemore is heralded as a savior of the genre, heralding the renaissance and new golden age of CRPGs.

January 2014:
Blakemore releases the short-awaited Grimoire 2 to universal condemnation. Grimoire fanbase is split into the Old Guard that decry decline features like 1200x800 resolutions, while new Grimoire fans are sorely disappointed after campaigning for romances. It is soon discovered that Blakemore had invested the entirety of Grimoire's profits into a second bunker in an unknown location, outsourcing Grimoire 2 to a disgruntled, self-aggrandising immigrant coder living in rural Australia. Said coder vows revenge on Blakemore by developing a game, all on his own, what the real Grimoire 2 should have been...

 

[kaizoku]

For $1M I'd rather for them to invest in their own new IP than giving it to Activision goons. Wasn't that what they originally asked to make PE?
250k would be a fee I would accept.

Like you said, Activision isn't going to make any new game based on Arcanum.
And GOG has probably sold all the Arcanum copies it could.

soon.... soon....

 

[Brayko]

Mind you, assuming P:E is successful, I'd just go to Activision and say "We'll give you $1 million for the Arcanum license. Take it or leave it. I mean, you, right here, right now, can have $1 million. Or we'll just make another game with another brand new setting and you get nothing - because let's face it, what are you really going to do with the Arcanum license? It's your choice."

Obsidian doesn't have the Balls!














(reverse psychology)

 

[Jaesun]

You know the sheer mention of MCA playing Arcanum was either a hint..... or a nod at the codex (or even a lulzy conversation between MCA and Tim at work). Because lets face it, we are practically the ONLY people on the internet that actually KNOW MCA has never played Arcanum. heh

 

[Brayko]

When is Chris Avellone going to stream playing Arcanum?
We’ll be in touch soon with details on that. It might be a Holiday Special stream. Rest assured he’s going to do it - you guys hit the $4M marker!

 

[Jasede]

You know the sheer mention of MCA playing Arcanum was either a hint..... or a nod at the codex (or even a lulzy conversation between MCA and Tim at work). Because lets face it, we are practically the ONLY people on the internet that actually KNOW MCA has never played Arcanum. heh

Even when we hate them (which, at times, we may) they'd rather be stuck with fans that can be hateful at times, but tell you straight up what's what rather than some delusion, cock-sucking Biodrones.

We actually like RPGs. That's probably the biggest difference. It boggles the mind- players who actually like RPGs rather than some glorfied harem realtime AWESOME button drivel?

Edit:
We're like those "evil" witches Avellone and Miyazaki love. We seem frightening, wicked, mean, but the truth is that deep down we (mostly) care about them and want to help them, even if it means teaching unpleasant and hard lessons. We've got a good heart, somewhere in all that bog of darkness.

You know, I really would wager that they are big Miyazaki fans at Obsidian.

 

[Shannow]

Mind you, assuming P:E is successful, I'd just go to Activision and say "We'll give you $10000 for the Arcanum license. Take it or leave it. I mean, you, right here, right now, can have $10000. Or we'll just make another game with another brand new setting and you get nothing - because let's face it, what are you really going to do with the Arcanum license? It's your choice."

fix0red

Mind you, I'd also go to Wizards of the Coast and license D&D for another ToEE-style adventure. Actually, fuck that. Make a new game with ToEE's combat and similar engine style (only tile-based, so it doesn't feel like you're walking on a painting) and use the open source D&D shit floating about. Fuck licenses man. Fuck 'em.

Yeah, they could call it Chronicles of Chaos or something

 

[Mrowak]

I share your concerns, the KS at launch was far too info-light and the nature of scope expansion during the Kickstarter period seems very tough to control. But if you're pointing to the Torment Vision Statement or saying the stamina/health mechanic is "way too little info" at this stage, that just makes no sense.

I was referring to an ideal example in which all the key mechanics would be presented. Vision Statement is a concrete document in which developers put their thoughts in organised manner - from which it is evident that they thought the thing through, and it's not just brainstorming ideas at this point, but vision they are going to make happen (with some changes along the way). At the very least they have context ready and they can build around that.

I think you impute far too much to Obsidian that which only exists in your imagination, or at least is unverified. E.g. it sounds as if you are imagining a process where it's day 25 of Kickstarter, Josh Sawyer is sitting in his room reading KS backers talk about HP, then he thinks, hey, what about stamina? You really think that's how that concept was born?

Yes and No. I think they brainstormed the concept just before the updates and put it right in there, without any real details - how it will really work - because they don't have a clue. Incidentally, now Fergus is trying to backpedal on exactly the stamina/health idea. Why is that I think? Because it was a brainstorming idea - stuff devoid of context. Also the poor start of the campaign and poor finish.

It's not that criticize them for brainstorming - it's an excellent technique. But they should have used it long before the campaign began and build their vision around the ideas they gathered, so at least conceptually they have a coherent whole. Do they have a coherent whole? They did not convince me they do.

What I think I would like to see is a rough breakdown or reasoning about why they chose these stretch goals, why they think they are doable, how the expanded budget corresponds non-linearly to stretch goals, etc.

Yes, yes!! That's it. That's the thing I originally I started my reasoning from before it diluted into a strawman mess. A breakdown on how and why this and that would work, how do they know exactly that goal X can be achieved in the given time-frame, how the stretch goal will change their general plan. Ideally they could provide general examples of each feature as they expect at this point it would work - a description of a single level of a dungeon - with the stuff you do; an example of a typical encounter with an enemy - how exactly they think tactics would work, etc. The general stuff. They can change that later on, but at least we know they are heading in some direction.

 

[J_C]

Also the poor start of the campaign and poor finish.

Yes, that shitty start and finish. When they barely got any funding. Oh wait:

Also, again, you are just making assumptions based on nothing. I'm sure they didn't came up with these ideas right before the updates. While they were not overy detailed updates, they couldn't have come up with them in 1 days.

 

[Mrowak]

Also the poor start of the campaign and poor finish.

Yes, that shitty start and finish. When they barely got any funding. Oh wait:

J_C. Goddamn you - I explained this to you countless times and you keep bringing this up each fucking time. It's not about the fucking money - money only idicated that their marketing campaign was successful. And we both know that marketing and actual development have all too often *nothing* to do with one another.

Also, again, you are just making assumptions based on nothing.

I am basing my assumptions on *facts* - and the fact is *nothing* substantial was given to us - and this is the true reason why I think the campaign failed (not money!). So no J_C, it's you making assumptions on nothing. *Nothing* was shown to you, you know *nothing* of matter about the project, *nothing* is guaranteed and we have *nothing* left but *hope* that Obsidian will succeed. If that's enough for you, then godspeed. I am not satisfied with the way the campaign told me *nothing* of value.

I'm sure they didn't came up with these ideas right before the updates. While they were not overy detailed updates, they couldn't have come up with them in 1 days.

o_O

"I'm sure they didn't came up with these ideas right before the updates"

And I am making assumptions, you say. What are you are basing that on? Because you just undermined that by saying "while they were not overy detailed updates".

"they couldn't have come up with them in 1 days."

Actually my own experience indicates you can. Also they didn't have 1 day but 30 days of the campaign in which they gradually brainstormed new ideas, which unfortunatelly to this point are decontextualised. That should have happened long before the campaign began.

If they had a plan from the start, a general idea wouldn't it make sense to show it? Even as a part of marketing process (e.g. gradually releasing parts of vision statement + all the stuff they said as a clarification + breakdown of reasoning why they chose such stretch goals and how they would factor in development)?

 

[J_C]

Baaah, why am I arguing about this again??? Fuck me that I can't resist. We already talked about his.

 

[l3loodAngel]

"We'll give you $1 million for the Arcanum license. Take it or leave it. I mean, you, right here, right now, can have $1 million. Or we'll just make another game with another brand new setting and you get nothing - because let's face it, what are you really going to do with the Arcanum license? It's your choice."

LOL @ 1 million. It's worth at least 5 times less. No developer or Publisher is going to touch it in a hundred years except for Obsidian.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Yes did your own IP twenty years in future so we will have less gay elves and magic and more steam (space) ships and tanks. We can call it Arcania in space 1899.

 

[serch]

Jasede would make a good Ravel incarnation, even if Avellone is done with that concept, a furry one.

If Avellone streams this, it's going to get awkward very soon with the whole Codex commenting on his play looks via chat. Perhaps he should wear a green shirt for Codexia?

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Mr. Avellone already has an appropriate Codexian shirt he can wear. Hopefully it fits. Should get him to wear that.

 

[edhead]

Are you aware that Fallout and Baldur's Gate had cost roughly $3M each, at a time when just about everything was far more expensive and that's including the astronomical expenses on CGI and marketing? With the current tools and goals (no CGI, no marketing campaign of similar scope, minimal VA, lack of publisher overseeing and the cost of assorted personnel), the $4M now must be like at least $6M then, possibly more.

Don't forget inflation. Adjusted for inflation, Fallout and BG would cost roughly 4.3 mil in nu dollah to make:

PE got $4,163,208 including PayPal, which in 1997 would translate into $2,887,530.99. And that's including pledge rewards, KS and Amazon cuts, and failed transactions, which could cost Obsidian a good chunk of what they raised. If you want to make a comparison, I'd say they should be left with roughly 2.0 - 2.5 mil 1997 jew gold. Not sure if that's enough to make a game of Fallout or BG scope.

 

[DwarvenFood]

You know the sheer mention of MCA playing Arcanum was either a hint..... or a nod at the codex (or even a lulzy conversation between MCA and Tim at work). Because lets face it, we are practically the ONLY people on the internet that actually KNOW MCA has never played Arcanum. heh

Yeah, never mind the fact that it was the Codex that bought him a copy in the first place.

Jaesun, off-topic, but why did you not volunteer to go to the Wasteland2 Party on behalf of the Codex ? Those internal flights in Kwanzania are not all that expensive, and no one else seemed particularly interested in going. There was this one dude (already forgot who!) that lives not far from the studio or something and he reluctantly (it seemed to me) accepted. Just wondering, bro. I'd take that chance if I were you, you seemed to enjoy the idea of drinking with MCA based on that live stream of theirs.

 

[Infinitron]

You know the sheer mention of MCA playing Arcanum was either a hint..... or a nod at the codex (or even a lulzy conversation between MCA and Tim at work). Because lets face it, we are practically the ONLY people on the internet that actually KNOW MCA has never played Arcanum. heh

Yeah, never mind the fact that it was the Codex that bought him a copy in the first place.

Jaesun, off-topic, but why did you not volunteer to go to the Wasteland2 Party on behalf of the Codex ? Those internal flights in Kwanzania are not all that expensive, and no one else seemed particularly interested in going. There was this one dude (already forgot who!) that lives not far from the studio or something and he reluctantly (it seemed to me) accepted. Just wondering, bro. I'd take that chance if I were you, you seemed to enjoy the idea of drinking with MCA based on that live stream of theirs.

That "one dude" is one of our admins.

 

[Jaesun]

PE got $4,163,208 including PayPal, which in 1997 would translate into $2,887,530.99. And that's including pledge rewards, KS and Amazon cuts, and failed transactions, which could cost Obsidian a good chunk of what they raised. If you want to make a comparison, I'd say they should be left with roughly 2.0 - 2.5 mil 1997 jew gold. Not sure if that's enough to make a game of Fallout or BG scope.

You DO know Obsidian is NOT getting $4,163,208 right?

Also WTF? You are not mucmu FFS!

Jaesun, off-topic, but why did you not volunteer to go to the Wasteland2 Party on behalf of the Codex ? Those internal flights in Kwanzania are not all that expensive, and no one else seemed particularly interested in going. There was this one dude (already forgot who!) that lives not far from the studio or something and he reluctantly (it seemed to me) accepted. Just wondering, bro. I'd take that chance if I were you, you seemed to enjoy the idea of drinking with MCA based on that live stream of theirs.

I missed out on the Codex fundraiser (I DID however back WL2 on KS).

 

[ghostdog]

Don't forget inflation. Adjusted for inflation, Fallout and BG would cost roughly 4.3 mil in nu dollah to make:

PE got $4,163,208 including PayPal, which in 1997 would translate into $2,887,530.99. And that's including pledge rewards, KS and Amazon cuts, and failed transactions, which could cost Obsidian a good chunk of what they raised. If you want to make a comparison, I'd say they should be left with roughly 2.0 - 2.5 mil 1997 jew gold. Not sure if that's enough to make a game of Fallout or BG scope.

Yeah, but it should also be noted that the tech for creating a game like Fallout or BG was way more expensive and time consuming in 1997.

 

[Tigranes]

I was referring to an ideal example in which all the key mechanics would be presented. Vision Statement is a concrete document in which developers put their thoughts in organised manner - from which it is evident that they thought the thing through, and it's not just brainstorming ideas at this point, but vision they are going to make happen (with some changes along the way). At the very least they have context ready and they can build around that.

Yes and No. I think they brainstormed the concept just before the updates and put it right in there, without any real details - how it will really work - because they don't have a clue. Incidentally, now Fergus is trying to backpedal on exactly the stamina/health idea. Why is that I think? Because it was a brainstorming idea - stuff devoid of context. Also the poor start of the campaign and poor finish.

It's not that criticize them for brainstorming - it's an excellent technique. But they should have used it long before the campaign began and build their vision around the ideas they gathered, so at least conceptually they have a coherent whole. Do they have a coherent whole? They did not convince me they do.

What I think I would like to see is a rough breakdown or reasoning about why they chose these stretch goals, why they think they are doable, how the expanded budget corresponds non-linearly to stretch goals, etc.

Yes, yes!! That's it. That's the thing I originally I started my reasoning from before it diluted into a strawman mess. A breakdown on how and why this and that would work, how do they know exactly that goal X can be achieved in the given time-frame, how the stretch goal will change their general plan. Ideally they could provide general examples of each feature as they expect at this point it would work - a description of a single level of a dungeon - with the stuff you do; an example of a typical encounter with an enemy - how exactly they think tactics would work, etc. The general stuff. They can change that later on, but at least we know they are heading in some direction.

Obviously there's no 'evidence' as to whether they were very organised (e.g. have an internal equivalent of vision documents, etc., then just dole out the information piecemeal), in which case the only problem was a minor one of presentation, or, at the other extreme, they were making it up as they went. But I think it really is unreasonable to assume anything at the latter end of the scale, it just would defy common sense. We know what Obsidian is good at and isn't good at, and they've always had the typical RPG dev problem of scope management, but what you implied in your previous post would be some massive negligence.

Anyway, we agree on the substantial point, which is a kind of rough budget/scope justification. My only thought is that Kickstarter really brings out the danger of revealing information; the more info you revela, the more other info you have to give to contextualise and it prevent stupid panicky responses, and the more info you reveal, the harder it is to change later on and not have all the Codexers cry flip-flop, etc. I actually think that by the end, PE revealed too much info - it was appropriate in the logic of the fundraiser, but in the logic of game development and managing expectations, I think they didn't have to talk about things like kill XP so early, especially since they are going to constantly fiddle with that as they go.

The mega-dungeon will be an interesting indicator of the ups and downs of the Kickstarter process. I mean, publishers aren't going to say "you must have a 15-level dungeon", though they would have forced other stuff.

 

[edhead]

PE got $4,163,208 including PayPal, which in 1997 would translate into $2,887,530.99. And that's including pledge rewards, KS and Amazon cuts, and failed transactions, which could cost Obsidian a good chunk of what they raised. If you want to make a comparison, I'd say they should be left with roughly 2.0 - 2.5 mil 1997 jew gold. Not sure if that's enough to make a game of Fallout or BG scope.

You DO know Obsidian is NOT getting $4,163,208 right?

Hence this part:

And that's including pledge rewards, KS and Amazon cuts, and failed transactions, which could cost Obsidian a good chunk of what they raised.

I'm not saying it's impossible for them to make this as large as BG or whatever. I'm just concerned this might end up like KOTOR2. And I hope it doesn't.

 

[Marquess Cornwallis]

You know the sheer mention of MCA playing Arcanum was either a hint..... or a nod at the codex (or even a lulzy conversation between MCA and Tim at work). Because lets face it, we are practically the ONLY people on the internet that actually KNOW MCA has never played Arcanum. heh

Yeah, never mind the fact that it was the Codex that bought him a copy in the first place.

By the way, he did at least pick it up back then (I donated the gift code on behalf of the Codex and GOG shows you on your gift page if/when it is redeemed).

 

[Jaesun]

The mega-dungeon will be an interesting indicator of the ups and downs of the Kickstarter process. I mean, publishers aren't going to say "you must have a 15-level dungeon", though they would have forced other stuff.

Project Eternity KS - With EA as a Publisher

Romance your entire party! Regardless of gender!
Deep cinematic romance scenes!
Fast paced RTwP Acton!

All the things that make a GREAT RPG experience! Donate today!

 

[Brayko]

Yeah also Fallout 1 had voice actors like Ron Pearlman and Richard Dean Anderson whilst Wasteland 2 has none. So that knocks a bit off the price comparison.