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KickStarter Queen's Wish: The Conqueror - the Jeff Vogel Kickstarter

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,703
Location
California
Something like I dunno, THIS, would be perfect:
The assumption that because time has passed, it should be easy for a tiny developer to have artwork as good as fantastic art from a couple decades ago is silly. You're comparing his game to ones that had 10+ professional artists working full time under the guidance of a experienced production team.

That said, we're not even at Eschalon level graphics, so...
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
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Messages
5,703
Location
California
Turning your nose up because a Vogel game has nothing more than passable graphics is certainly odd.
It's not that. It's him having to run a kickstarter for a new engine that produces uglier graphics than his old engine.
I assume the changed perspective is to make the sim aspect of the game easier from a player standpoint. Way easier to drag boxes than isometric rhomboids.
 

thesheeep

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Something like I dunno, THIS, would be perfect:
The assumption that because time has passed, it should be easy for a tiny developer to have artwork as good as fantastic art from a couple decades ago is silly. You're comparing his game to ones that had 10+ professional artists working full time under the guidance of a experienced production team.
Well... it IS easier and cheaper and faster to produce art like that and/or hire artists that are capable of producing it than it was a couple decades ago.
That said, it still isn't cheap and most likely not within budget, but who knows.
 

tindrli

Arcane
Joined
Jan 5, 2011
Messages
4,465
Location
Dragodol
Jeff Vogel is immensely clueless at graphics.

For starters, nobody uses that kind of isometric camera anymore.

Its not like we're demanding AAA 2018 PC Master Race graphics. I think Late 90s graphics would already be a great improvement over his "this would look good in 1980" classic graphics.
Something like I dunno, THIS, would be perfect:
385131.jpeg

231723.jpeg

136562.jpeg

80644.jpeg

1*8VopFMA6a0viU7-xYEyKVg.png


A Geneforge remake that looks about as good as, say, Fallout 2 or Diablo 2, would sell like hotcakes. The Geneforge games are superb, the only things they lack are good graphics and a proper soundtrack. That's ALL.

Hell, he could even cash on being "Indie" and "Nostalgia" with late 90s graphics. Instead, he does that dogshit.


i think he is leaving geneforge series untill end.. the last remake of remake of remake of remakes!
and he will probably use torchlight 2 engine or similar
 

Mustawd

Guest
Well... it IS easier and cheaper and faster to produce art like that

I’d say the process of producing the assets from a tech perspective is certainly easier and cheaper. After all, we have more than enough computing power in a $500 PC to render basic assets. You also have free programs like Blender or GIMP that can also reduce the cost to the artist.

But art takes experience and skill to produce good art direction. Many of the old games with 2D assets had artists with actual backgrounds in art outside making 3D assets or at least had art directors to guide them.

Vogel’s art is inconsistent and doesn’t really have a unifying theme or color pallete. Say what you will about his last games, but that artist was obviously more talented than what Vogel has now. And I mean as an overall artist, and not just some dude who makes stuff in a 3D program.
 

V_K

Arcane
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at a Nowhere near you
Turning your nose up because a Vogel game has nothing more than passable graphics is certainly odd.
It's not that. It's him having to run a kickstarter for a new engine that produces uglier graphics than his old engine.
I assume the changed perspective is to make the sim aspect of the game easier from a player standpoint. Way easier to drag boxes than isometric rhomboids.
Perspective is the least of the problems though. LoX had top-down perspective in dungeons (and technically in the overworld too, the isometric aspect of it is mostly faked with assets), yet it looked beautiful. This doesn't.
 

Agesilaus

Antiquity Studio
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Developer
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Aug 24, 2013
Messages
4,456
Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Good god that's worse than the western rpg maker graphics

ss_bd310ab78009588044af769f34a006edb128e3bc.jpg

Wait... what is this magic? Is it a good game making tool?

RPG Maker? I'm surprised you've never heard of it. It makes mostly JRPG style games without some heavy scripting.



I have heard of RPG Maker, but I ignored it and went to GMS2 because I don't want to make a jrpg. Its cool someone changed it so it has bg style graphics, though.
 

Kalarion

Serial Ratist
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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong BattleTech Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
I don't think that Vogel should change the type of graphic he uses. It could end up a disaster,good graphics need time and skills in it. People do play Vogel's game mainly because of the decent writing,the great exploration and the simple yet complex combat/skill systems. I am curious about the graphic guys. Do you even had/do play all of his game? I don't mean it as an attack,just want to know if you are fans of his games or you will buy it if it had better graphics.

This question is kind of silly, considering your recent history of jousting with members of the forum who have been following and religiously playing Vogel's games since his shareware days in the early 90's.

But to answer, I'm tentatively leaning towards buying it. I really want to know more about the game's mechanics, especially character development and itemization, though. The graphics style as it looks now is offputting (recall that I'm a big fan of Exile's graphics), but I think I could look past it if I see some kind of return to his roots in other areas. It's also worth noting that many art assets etc. still aren't in the game- I assume that the engine being complete doesn't mean that all of the tilesets are fully finished/placed. So right now I'm ok with cutting him some slack in the art direction/graphics department.

It helps that I didn't back this, of course :D
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,087
Location
Bulgaria
This question is kind of silly, considering your recent history of jousting with members of the forum who have been following and religiously playing Vogel's games since his shareware days in the early 90's.
I have no idea who are talking about and about which jousting duel :lol:.

It is pretty hard to know which guy is a fan of which game. I do remember peoples preferences when they are hammering them frequently. You can't expect people to remember that X likes Y because he posted a few times in a 100 page thread a few months/years ago. Especially Vogel's games,there are not many discussions about them.

I just finished cleaning the islands of Geneforge3 from rebel filth,it is very satisfactory! They do remind me of SJW,bunch of traitors that do terrible shit and ravel in degeneracy while whining about their muh feelz and rightz. I do like all of his games and i do own them,also i do frequently replay them.

I too didn't back it,i never back possible shit,i only buy the good one :obviously:. Don't waste money on things that could be,for all i know i could die tomorrow,better to buy alcohol and food.
 
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 10, 2018
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Mouse Utopia
Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In
Why did Vogel even feel the need to upgrade when the Avadon series looked very nice (by comparison to his usual fare...)? And, if upgrading, how'd he end up with something so awful? And why, much longer ago, did he get rid of the freeform points-purchase system in favour of skilltrees? Maddening.

At least I don't really need to care about this game as the writing will almost certainly be what you'd expect from an Avadon 4. I actually liked Avadon 1's story just fine but the series became so mediocre.
 

Agesilaus

Antiquity Studio
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Developer
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Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I backed this project at a higher tier and will definitely be playing it. I think the Geneforge series and Nethergate are some of the greatest RPGs/entertainment products ever created. The Exile/Avernum stuff is fine, Avadon was okay I guess, but whatever. That he was able to create excellent products, work independently, and make a decent living, is really impressive and I hope I can achieve something similar.
 

Grauken

Gourd vibes only
Patron
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
12,787
Thank you for that important message of support. We can now go back to regular Vogel bashing

Seriously, that art looks shit compared to any of his previous games, including the Exile ones. How anyone can look at those screenshots and not develop eye-cancer is beyond me. Also, if you expect any of his future games to have any complexity beyond Avadon, you're seriously deluded
 
Last edited:

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,087
Location
Bulgaria
http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/


the fucker hasn't even updated his front page :lol:


shit's a scam yo
well another thing is for sure.. that game is anything but SCAM..... its pointless for him.. why the hell he would do it anyway...


irony
/ˈʌɪrəni/
noun
noun: irony
  1. the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.
    "‘Don't go overboard with the gratitude,’ he rejoined with heavy irony"
    synonyms: sarcasm, sardonicism, dryness, causticity, sharpness, acerbity, acid, bitterness, trenchancy, mordancy, cynicism; More
    mockery, satire, ridicule, derision, scorn, sneering;
    wryness, backhandedness;
    informalsarkiness
    "that note of irony in her voice"
    antonyms: sincerity
    • a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a result.
      plural noun: ironies
      "the irony is that I thought he could help me"
      synonyms: paradox, paradoxical nature, incongruity, incongruousness, peculiarity
      "the irony of the situation hit her"
      antonyms: logic
    • a literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character's words or actions is clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character.
      noun: dramatic irony; plural noun: tragic irony
 

Brozef

Savant
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Messages
231
Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Seriously, that art looks shit compared any of his previous games, including the Exile ones.

I agree. The problem isn't that the art is primitive. The problem is that he finally decided to do a kickstarter with the express purpose of updating the engine and somehow managed to make it worse. It kinda looks like he took cues from A Valley Without Wind and just pasted the models into his old assets. Just horrendous. Honestly a simple tileset would look better (just look at the Mayday Set for Dwarf Fortress) or even ASCII. The problem is the lack of consistency more than anything else.
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
I agree. The problem isn't that the art is primitive. The problem is that he finally decided to do a kickstarter with the express purpose of updating the engine and somehow managed to make it worse.

What does that remind me of? Ah, right! (minus the Kickstarter part)

Anyway, I always thought that Vogel lacked a proper lighting system to his engine. Or some better use of shadows. That would make it look much less flat and boring. E.g. Avernum might actually look like it's set in a giant cavern, instead of on the surface in broad daylight. He can keep the rest of the art, that's good enough, imo.
 
Last edited:

J_C

One Bit Studio
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Developer
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Messages
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Pannonia
Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
49b71704286b47466cb7e9958a641a82_original.png

With Chief Miranda, your loyal butler Stonehouse, and the tempting (but closed) portal home.
Wait, what? Vogel is using RPG Maker for his game? Because this style is very similar to that. The stone monument on the left is actually from the basic RPG Maker tileset. I've used it myself here in the middle:
PQmBTOk.jpg

The bookshelf on the upper right corner, the two crossed swords on the wall and the desk are also RPG Maker assets if I recall it correctly.
And the other tiles are very similar to RPG Maker as well. Or maybe he is just using the RPG Maker tiles for the prototype, and he will change them later.
Good god that's worse than the western rpg maker graphics

ss_bd310ab78009588044af769f34a006edb128e3bc.jpg
Hey that actually looks gorgeous, don't bash it.
 

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,158
Why did Vogel even feel the need to upgrade when the Avadon series looked very nice (by comparison to his usual fare...)? And, if upgrading, how'd he end up with something so awful? And why, much longer ago, did he get rid of the freeform points-purchase system in favour of skilltrees? Maddening.

At least I don't really need to care about this game as the writing will almost certainly be what you'd expect from an Avadon 4. I actually liked Avadon 1's story just fine but the series became so mediocre.

Because the thing he really wants to do and cant is a dragon age origins game, he's aiming hopelessly towards that impossible goal. If given the budget he would do bioware games, the old school ultima games , exiles were a misunderstanding, a mistake. I'd be more interested if his games were more complex with more party members and feats,with much lower graphics but there's no way he's going to.
 

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
Patron
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
28,242
Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
49b71704286b47466cb7e9958a641a82_original.png

With Chief Miranda, your loyal butler Stonehouse, and the tempting (but closed) portal home.
Wait, what? Vogel is using RPG Maker for his game? Because this style is very similar to that. The stone monument on the left is actually from the basic RPG Maker tileset. I've used it myself here in the middle:
PQmBTOk.jpg

The bookshelf on the upper right corner, the two crossed swords on the wall and the desk are also RPG Maker assets if I recall it correctly.
And the other tiles are very similar to RPG Maker as well. Or maybe he is just using the RPG Maker tiles for the prototype, and he will change them later.
Good god that's worse than the western rpg maker graphics

ss_bd310ab78009588044af769f34a006edb128e3bc.jpg
Hey that actually looks gorgeous, don't bash it.
Conclusion:the dude has finally discovered RPG Maker. Another half a century later he might get around to doing 3d stuff in Unity.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
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Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,236
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Wait, what? Vogel is using RPG Maker for his game? Because this style is very similar to that. The stone monument on the left is actually from the basic RPG Maker tileset. I've used it myself here in the middle:
PQmBTOk.jpg

The bookshelf on the upper right corner, the two crossed swords on the wall and the desk are also RPG Maker assets if I recall it correctly.
And the other tiles are very similar to RPG Maker as well. Or maybe he is just using the RPG Maker tiles for the prototype, and he will change them later.

Somebody should ask him about this on Twitter or in the Kickstarter comments.
 

HoboForEternity

sunset tequila
Patron
Joined
Mar 27, 2016
Messages
9,176
Location
Disco Elysium
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Wait, what? Vogel is using RPG Maker for his game? Because this style is very similar to that. The stone monument on the left is actually from the basic RPG Maker tileset. I've used it myself here in the middle:
PQmBTOk.jpg

The bookshelf on the upper right corner, the two crossed swords on the wall and the desk are also RPG Maker assets if I recall it correctly.
And the other tiles are very similar to RPG Maker as well. Or maybe he is just using the RPG Maker tiles for the prototype, and he will change them later.

Somebody should ask him about this on Twitter or in the Kickstarter comments.
what is wrong with using stock sprite at rog maker? He said it time and time again, if a sprite looks good, and cheap he will use it. Ffs he use the same wolf sprite for 15 years, and i can see his poiny. "As long the wolf sprite still look like a wolf, and i need wolves in my game, i will use it.

Dont like it? Fuck off there are other games with good graphics like dragon age inquishition if you care that much about graphics.
 

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