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Recycled themes in RPGs

Lady_Error

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Why cant they make a game where you are pure evil and just want to see the world burn and torture kill and rape? Why do you always have to be the good guy?

Tyranny does exactly that. Yet apparently not too many people bought it, despite it being an actually good game.

What's indeed missing in RPG's is at least the option to be evil, eg. BG2 had fun evil party members you could recruit. POE 1+2 kind of skipped all that.
 
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Tyranny does exactly that. Yet apparently not too many people bought it, despite it being an actually good game.
:nocountryforshitposters:

For one thing, all the agenda they shoved down your throat with the stronk womyn thing and what not was unbearable.
Next Paradox's predatory DLC policy for 10 (15?) kwakoins for some minor mid-game fluff was p. shit.
The magic system was sort of fun at the start yes; and the theme of a evil inquisitor / general was sort of nice. But the execution failed miserably.

Now real evil was handled very well in NWN2: MOTB.
 
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Lady_Error

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Well, there is some stuff like that - becoming a slave owner, a pirate, evil choices in some quests.

However, I think none of the companions would qualify as evil, even though those were some of the best in BG2.
 
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Well, there is some stuff like that - becoming a slave owner, a pirate, evil choices in some quests.

However, I think none of the companions would qualify as evil, even though those were some of the best in BG2.
Ah yes. I'd say only the Devil of Caroc in the first game comes even close to being evil. But for the player's side, there are tons of evil options.
 

The Red Knight

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I don't think many RPGs have recycling as a theme. Perhaps white wolf's Werewolf the Apocalypse has some eco-friendliness, and in Paranoia clones are sort of recycling your memories and psyche. But that's about it.

To come to think of it, returning paper and empty cans is kind of boring to really be a central theme.
Arcanum had you going through rubbish bins and segregating reusable textiles and metals that city dwellers mixed with non-recyclable trash. And in NEO Garbageman the main focus of the game is to go from city to city and clean streets from trash which you then meticulously sort (take note of how eager the protagonist is to remove all the plastic shopping bags and plastic/glass bottles from the enivornment).
 

vota DC

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A mysterious plague, you are the chosen one, bad guy muwahahah evil because evil, attacked suddenly at the beginning, have to go from low in life to being awesome at lvl 30, find 4 McGuffins in random order before end game, black and white morality, etc. So basically your typical Pathfinder Kingmaker boring generic trope.

Why do you think developers cant come up with something more original in a story plot than always the same story elements or even lore propositions (like elves= enslaved Indians dwarfs-drunk Irish or Scotsman etc.). You might as well tied up 90% of different settings into one big giant one because there is little to no difference in world lore-conflicts are similar only names of places and factions fluctuate.

Why cant they make a game where you are pure evil and just want to see the world burn and torture kill and rape? Why do you always have to be the good guy? Or something other than being typical boring hero. Or low level stakes where killing A monster at the end as ordinary peasant is a big deal.

Some rpg you can burn the world etc etc etc, It Is uncommon while most rts have at least a playable faction that destroy everything and kill civilians at sight.
 

Tigranes

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It's also telling how OP's repeated example of what a 'refreshing' alternative evil story would be.... is the most cliche imagination of 'haha now I'm evil' RPG ever.
 
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Why cant they make a game where you are pure evil and just want to see the world burn and torture kill and rape? Why do you always have to be the good guy?

Tyranny does exactly that. Yet apparently not too many people bought it, despite it being an actually good game.

What's indeed missing in RPG's is at least the option to be evil, eg. BG2 had fun evil party members you could recruit. POE 1+2 kind of skipped all that.
Did it actually have good writing? I didn't buy, despite liking PoE1, because I assumed the writing would be bad/mediocre.
 

Danikas

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Orig_320200_1_1257581825.png
 

Lady_Error

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Why cant they make a game where you are pure evil and just want to see the world burn and torture kill and rape? Why do you always have to be the good guy?

Tyranny does exactly that. Yet apparently not too many people bought it, despite it being an actually good game.

What's indeed missing in RPG's is at least the option to be evil, eg. BG2 had fun evil party members you could recruit. POE 1+2 kind of skipped all that.
Did it actually have good writing? I didn't buy, despite liking PoE1, because I assumed the writing would be bad/mediocre.

I liked Tyranny more than PoE1, though I think White March might have been a bit better.
 

thesecret1

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It's a simple result of gaming becoming an industry. When you have a miltimillion (or billion) company, the costs tend to be so large that you need a reliable source of income to keep the gears moving. Every time a game underperforms, it hurts like a bitch, so you seek to avoid that at all costs. The new game doesn't need to perform well, it just needs to pay for the bills to keep your own (nicely large) income going, and it needs to come often. You can't just take a break for 3 years where you focus everything on one game, which then has a chance to flop - you'd go bankrupt. Instead, you want to churn out games as often as possible, as cheaply as possible, while performing about average. So you start ddoing shit like yearly releases, you do away with all the details and things that are nice but cannot be marketed very well to cut down on costs and development time, you make sure to avoid any unnecessary risks, such as writing a story with some kind of originality. Clichés became clichés because they work - they can be relied on not to shit the bed and take little effort, while going into the unorthodox carries a heavy risk. What if people hate the new race you introduced and are turned off by it? Why not just put in good ol' orcs that are guaranteed to work? Why write a complex villain that needs a skilled writer to pull off and carries the risk of politics getting involved with all that shit, when you can just have some intern whip up a morning cartoon villain and call it a day? Why come up with a strange new setting that people might dislika and that your shitty artists might not pull off, when you can just use fantasy land #1092 that people definitely won't mind and for which you can recycle an assload of assets from elsewhere?

It's the price of gaming getting big, and it's the exact same thing that happened to Hollywood. The moment game dev stops being about developing games and starts being about staying in the black numbers is the moment innovation dies, as it is simply not economically viable.
 

thesecret1

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Did it actually have good writing?
No. The writing was trash and the gameplay was even worse. Even the promise of you being evil is a lie. You're an anti-hero at best. The game TELLS you that you're evil... but shows you being good. You do good deeds like always, and even though you serve an "evil overlord" or whatever, most NPCs in the game will tell you "oh, I actually like it better under the overlord than under previous regime, lol", and when you meet the rebels fighting against the overlord, you find out they're massive cunts that deserve everything they get.
 

smaug

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Isn’t the fact that, because you’re playing a CRPG instead of a tabletop RPG, you can’t do shit at whatever level?
 

Lady_Error

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No. The writing was trash and the gameplay was even worse.

All I can say is that I really enjoyed all aspects of Tyranny - it turned out much better than I expected.

- The factions are done quite well, you can align with one of them or fuck them all over, including the Overlord and even your secret powerful ally.
- The powerful supermen-type beings were also done very well in my opinion and it was fun to recruit one of the lesser ones into your party.
- The combat and character system are somewhat different than PoE, though also quite similar in the fundamental mechanics.
 

Neanderthal

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Implementation is the key for me, a creative, imaginative, and driven team can take centuries (millenia) old ideas and spin something fresh and exciting from them. Whereas a creatively bankrupt bunch of folk who don't really want to make this type of game will regurgitate the same old pap.
 

skaraher

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Tides of Numenera should be the exemple of a CRPG where writers were so focused on subverting whatever tropes, they couldn't be arsed to make the game worth something on its own merits.
 
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Bohrain

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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Well we all know that consumers don't really care about the quality of writing, but I think that novelty in writing also requires extra effort in other design aspects.
Combat oriented games with some character building mechanics work pretty well if the player controlled character(s) are persistent and have some excuse to encounter increasingly difficult opponents. It's very easy to make a game where a virtuous group of heroes strike down a villain, since you don't need to think about several things, such as
1) False protagonists. If the protagonist dies or gets switched it goes against the idea of persistency. People don't like their previous progression getting wiped out, so developers don't like toying with this. There of course exceptions, such as Romancing Saga 2 where your heir takes the spotlight.
2) Moral ambiquity. If you don't make your antagonists outright evil there is usually more room for solutions that don't involve combat, but since those kind of motives are harder to write in the first place and non-violent solutions would mean adding extra mechanics or branching story structure, developers generally won't bother.
3) Conveniently scaling enemies. Areas are designed in mind that a player who is about this strong should be here. This is very different from just having the freedom to write a protagonist who doesn't necessarily get stronger in combat over the course of the story. Hence why games tend to have a series of themeparky areas and a saturday morning villain with infinite resources, but not enough sense to destroy potential threats with overwhelming force.
 

Ladonna

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You must be a special snowflake. People won't buy your game otherwise.

I recently finished pool of radiance on the 64 again, and as I came back from storming vallejo castle and defeating tyranthraxus, entering into the civilised area, the guards, as usual, eyed me suspiciously. They know we are just a bunch of mercenary whores out for the loot and glory. Phlan can burn if it would give us more magic items. Never mind the coin, of which we have dumped several kingdoms worth on the tavern floor to stop encumberance. Once back at the clerks office, a congratulations and more loot. Then ushered back on to the streets. Thanks mercenaries, your services are no longer needed. No special snowflake discounts for you.
 

ShadowSpectre

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Age of Decadence fairs quite well for trope avoidance. It's not mainstream palatable of course. The game often puts you in situations of choosing the lesser evil when you do want to be a good guy. Inevitably, you will never please or get along with everybody with your decisions. While your character is somewhat more likely to be a civilized person than not, (just on the basis you don't want to get your ass kicked and die for your stupidity, have to play along in some instances), the game will inevitably make you do something you don't want to do. The characters fall into more realistic good along with the bad and so do you. If you want to be psychopathic, there are those options as well, including your ability to blow up a whole city just because you can. You can "save the world" but did you really? Haha. It's all a matter of perspective.
 

MRY

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I disagree, take something like GTA5, there is just so much story and dialogue. Many hours of it even. They have huge budgets too that even sometimes put TV shows to shame. So there is really no excuse for it not at least being as good as an episode of The Shield or something like that. All the things that make a show work, the subtle stuff and the build up etc, can all still be done in a game, especially one that is story focused and has so much time spent on it as a lot of games do today.
I haven't played GTA5, so maybe I'm wrong, but I think you're way, way, way off. I loved The Shield, and I see no way you could translate it into a game. Among other things:

(1) Episodes relied heavily on cutting between perspectives to build tension (leaving one arc on a mini-cliffhanger then cutting to another character). Impossible in a game.
(2) A huge amount of the drama consists of watching how Vic Mackey (or other focal characters) react to what is happening, rather than watching them act and seeing the effect of their actions on others. But in a game, seeing how your character reacts is dumb; your character's reaction might not be your reaction, so it widens the player-character gap. Furthermore, games should be about doing, not passively seeing reactions.
(3) The Shield's overall narrative arc is about how the combination of pressure and human frailty cause someone with ostensibly noble goals to pursue an increasingly corrupt path. But in a video game, the player doesn't suffer from pressure or human frailties. It's never hard for a player to react politely to his wife, no matter how dramatic the game's scenario is. Thus, the likelihood that a player would ever choose to play as Vic Mackey is very, very slight. (Consider Bioware's data on how few people play as bad guys.) Even in a game like AOD, which goes very far in the direction of forcing the player to make hard choices, players tend not to make decisions because they've lost control of their emotions.
(4) In fact, essentially every good drama relies heavily on the protagonists' inability to metagame -- the dramatic tension arises because the character fails to take account of the long-term consequences of some impulsive or narrow-focused action. It is very hard to get the player to behave that way in a game, so you can't tell the same kind of narrative in that sense.

I mean, we could go on and on...

Also it has come pretty close once or twice. The Bloody Baron in Witcher 3 had good enough writing and good enough voice acting (and animation) that for the first time in maybe ever, I felt like the gap between TV and game stories had shrunk down to almost nothing. The problem is that it was just one small part of the game and it was sat amongst hours of filler.
I haven't played it, but I'm (1) skeptical that in fact that gap was that narrow and (2) skeptical that we would want it to be narrow. People say that PS:T is novelistic, but if you compare it to even a mid-tier novel, it is trite, overwritten, poorly paced, its characters have uninteresting and predictable arcs, etc. PS:T is sublime. But it is sublime as a game. Because video game fans are insecure, we tend to want to analogize to respected media. Saying PS:T is like a great novel is basically just a cry for acceptance from artistic authorities. They will never accept video games (literary critics wouldn't even accept Gene Wolfe till he was dead, you think they're going to accept a Dungeon & Dragon's murder simulator??), and it's a bad analogy. Second, if The Wild Hunt actually did wind up being like a good TV show (i.e., where rather than feeling the thrill of doing you felt the thrill of watching), that would be sad.

Every indie game I play today has mountains of text that tries so hard to be funny or clever or interesting or fantasy-ish, and it not only always fails (from my point of view at least) but it also really annoys me because it forces itself upon me, and it is so unnecessary. Focus on gameplay! Only add story if you somehow manage to get something truly exceptional.
Nope. It turns out that adding stories to games massively enhances the experience even if the story is terrible. Now, letting the story become so obtrusive that it harms the gameplay (for instance, with endless walls of text or long, unskippable cutscenes) is almost certainly a bad idea (no matter how good the story is!). But, yeah, having the exact same space shooter game, only in one instance, between each level you have a screen of text like:

[Before Level 1]
The Space Emperor Gurthrax has set his eyes on Earth...
No race has ever stopped his armadas before,
and the galaxy is filled with ashen, lifeless planets
and enslaved billions of aliens
all a testament to Gurthrax's might.
Now, you are the only thing standing between the aliens
and the Blue Planet.
Take to your Starfighter and save the planet!

[Before Level 2]
Your destruction of the vanguard of Gurthrax's armada
has only inflamed the Space Emperor's wrath.
Images of the wrecked corvettes and shattered Battle-Cruiser
have inspired him to direct a new deadly threat your way...


Etc. etc.

Cliche, stupid, overwritten. It doesn't matter. If you put that shit between each level, the player will have significantly more fun with the exact same game. The market (and fandom) has proven that fact. What's even more amazing, is that at least 10% of the players who play Planet Defender Starfighter! will post on Reddit about how there should be a Planet Defender Starfighter! cartoon show, or at least a manga, and 1% will suggest that it should be made into a movie "which would be at least as good as Star Wars." ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The miracle of games.

It may be that you are in a tiny minority of players who actively dislikes dumb stories, but sadly, your rights will be trampled by the market power of the majority.
 

Darth Canoli

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All I can say is that I really enjoyed all aspects of Tyranny - it turned out much better than I expected.

- The factions are done quite well, you can align with one of them or fuck them all over, including the Overlord and even your secret powerful ally.
- The powerful supermen-type beings were also done very well in my opinion and it was fun to recruit one of the lesser ones into your party.
- The combat and character system are somewhat different than PoE, though also quite similar in the fundamental mechanics.

I almost agree, except the game had poor performances (loading, etc. ) and the combat was bearable until you reached the old wall and had to deal with the same enemies over and over again ...
Checked the mods just now, nothing but portraits and banners, someone uploaded a full save to enable new game + (not sure what you get, i hope it's not tougher fights, because the original version is barely comestible)

Fun fact, one guy is running for the retard of the year award, he made a Britney Spears Tyranny Avatar ...

 
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