Red Dead Redemption 2 - now available on PC

[Sentinel]

Every time I step away from the game for a bit then jump into a gunfight I forget about the cocking mechanic and without fail I’ll line up a perfect shot only to hear *click*

You mean in the middle of an already ongoing firefight or does this happen to you when you're about to fire the first shot? 'Cause Arthur always automatically pulls the hammer/lever when you first aim a gun after drawing it.

And yeah if you're shifting between games I can understand the frustration. I avoid playing more than 1 game in the same genre at once precisely because of that, I start using the wrong controls in the wrong game. Started avoiding it ever since the days of Microsoft Flight Sim and flying planes in Battlefield 1942/2.

 

[Swigen]

Every time I step away from the game for a bit then jump into a gunfight I forget about the cocking mechanic and without fail I’ll line up a perfect shot only to hear *click*

You mean in the middle of an already ongoing firefight or does this happen to you when you're about to fire the first shot? 'Cause Arthur always automatically pulls the hammer/lever when you first aim a gun after drawing it.

And yeah if you're shifting between games I can understand the frustration. I avoid playing more than 1 game in the same genre at once precisely because of that, I start using the wrong controls in the wrong game. Started avoiding it ever since the days of Microsoft Flight Sim and flying planes in Battlefield 1942/2.

Middle of a fight, especially with a scoped rifle. First shot *headshot* another dude pops his head outta cover “haha gotcha motherfucker!!” *click* “SONOFA!!!”

 

[Sentinel]

Every time I step away from the game for a bit then jump into a gunfight I forget about the cocking mechanic and without fail I’ll line up a perfect shot only to hear *click*

You mean in the middle of an already ongoing firefight or does this happen to you when you're about to fire the first shot? 'Cause Arthur always automatically pulls the hammer/lever when you first aim a gun after drawing it.

And yeah if you're shifting between games I can understand the frustration. I avoid playing more than 1 game in the same genre at once precisely because of that, I start using the wrong controls in the wrong game. Started avoiding it ever since the days of Microsoft Flight Sim and flying planes in Battlefield 1942/2.

Middle of a fight, especially with a scoped rifle. First shot *headshot* another dude pops his head outta cover “haha gotcha motherfucker!!” *click* “SONOFA!!!”

Arthur uses the lever automatically on a rifle if you're scoped in tho.

 

[Swigen]

Every time I step away from the game for a bit then jump into a gunfight I forget about the cocking mechanic and without fail I’ll line up a perfect shot only to hear *click*

You mean in the middle of an already ongoing firefight or does this happen to you when you're about to fire the first shot? 'Cause Arthur always automatically pulls the hammer/lever when you first aim a gun after drawing it.

And yeah if you're shifting between games I can understand the frustration. I avoid playing more than 1 game in the same genre at once precisely because of that, I start using the wrong controls in the wrong game. Started avoiding it ever since the days of Microsoft Flight Sim and flying planes in Battlefield 1942/2.

Middle of a fight, especially with a scoped rifle. First shot *headshot* another dude pops his head outta cover “haha gotcha motherfucker!!” *click* “SONOFA!!!”

Arthur uses the lever automatically on a rifle if you're scoped in tho.

Hmm I bet only if you stay scoped in. If I were to shoot, come out of scope to spot a dude, then zoom in again would that eff it up? Otherwise I’m remembering wrong.

 

[Sentinel]

Every time I step away from the game for a bit then jump into a gunfight I forget about the cocking mechanic and without fail I’ll line up a perfect shot only to hear *click*

You mean in the middle of an already ongoing firefight or does this happen to you when you're about to fire the first shot? 'Cause Arthur always automatically pulls the hammer/lever when you first aim a gun after drawing it.

And yeah if you're shifting between games I can understand the frustration. I avoid playing more than 1 game in the same genre at once precisely because of that, I start using the wrong controls in the wrong game. Started avoiding it ever since the days of Microsoft Flight Sim and flying planes in Battlefield 1942/2.

Middle of a fight, especially with a scoped rifle. First shot *headshot* another dude pops his head outta cover “haha gotcha motherfucker!!” *click* “SONOFA!!!”

Arthur uses the lever automatically on a rifle if you're scoped in tho.

Hmm I bet only if you stay scoped in. If I were to shoot, come out of scope to spot a dude, then zoom in again would that eff it up? Otherwise I’m remembering wrong.

I just tested with a rifle on my 2nd playthrough save file (still in chapter 2) and Arthur did it automatically both unscoped and scoped. You're probably misremembering lol.

 

[Swigen]

Every time I step away from the game for a bit then jump into a gunfight I forget about the cocking mechanic and without fail I’ll line up a perfect shot only to hear *click*

You mean in the middle of an already ongoing firefight or does this happen to you when you're about to fire the first shot? 'Cause Arthur always automatically pulls the hammer/lever when you first aim a gun after drawing it.

And yeah if you're shifting between games I can understand the frustration. I avoid playing more than 1 game in the same genre at once precisely because of that, I start using the wrong controls in the wrong game. Started avoiding it ever since the days of Microsoft Flight Sim and flying planes in Battlefield 1942/2.

Middle of a fight, especially with a scoped rifle. First shot *headshot* another dude pops his head outta cover “haha gotcha motherfucker!!” *click* “SONOFA!!!”

Arthur uses the lever automatically on a rifle if you're scoped in tho.

Hmm I bet only if you stay scoped in. If I were to shoot, come out of scope to spot a dude, then zoom in again would that eff it up? Otherwise I’m remembering wrong.

I just tested with a rifle on my 2nd playthrough save file (still in chapter 2) and Arthur did it automatically both unscoped and scoped. You're probably misremembering lol.

Haha I just checked it now as well. He doesn’t with the shitty Carcano Rifle but he does with the Rolling Rock.

 

[Sentinel]

Every time I step away from the game for a bit then jump into a gunfight I forget about the cocking mechanic and without fail I’ll line up a perfect shot only to hear *click*

You mean in the middle of an already ongoing firefight or does this happen to you when you're about to fire the first shot? 'Cause Arthur always automatically pulls the hammer/lever when you first aim a gun after drawing it.

And yeah if you're shifting between games I can understand the frustration. I avoid playing more than 1 game in the same genre at once precisely because of that, I start using the wrong controls in the wrong game. Started avoiding it ever since the days of Microsoft Flight Sim and flying planes in Battlefield 1942/2.

Middle of a fight, especially with a scoped rifle. First shot *headshot* another dude pops his head outta cover “haha gotcha motherfucker!!” *click* “SONOFA!!!”

Arthur uses the lever automatically on a rifle if you're scoped in tho.

Hmm I bet only if you stay scoped in. If I were to shoot, come out of scope to spot a dude, then zoom in again would that eff it up? Otherwise I’m remembering wrong.

I just tested with a rifle on my 2nd playthrough save file (still in chapter 2) and Arthur did it automatically both unscoped and scoped. You're probably misremembering lol.

Haha I just checked it now as well. He doesn’t with the shitty Carcano Rifle but he does with the Rolling Rock.

Yeah I was thinking maybe it's different depending on rifle. I tested it on the first one you get, don't remember its name. That's kinda inconsistently dumb.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I'm replaying the game and holy shit, this game has incredible moments. That part where Dutch drowns Bronte and feeds him to an alligator while the gang watches incredulous realizing he's completely lost it is really sad. The music is fucking perfect. This game has some of the greatest and tragic characters in any game. I'm extremely surprised by what Rockstar's writers managed to achieve.

It was kind of weird, they reacted like regular people who aren't used to violence. Shooting people during a botched robbery is fine but drowning a gangster who tried to get them killed* and dumping the body overboard is fucked up? Yeah ok.

*Dutch is more motivated by the insults than the attempt on his life though

Speaking of his ego, I found a good post on him today

https://www.reddit.com/r/reddeadred.../dutch_has_a_plan_rant_major_spoilers/eamadmd

Spoiler

The fact that people like Dutch and they thought he was actually a good guy is only proof of how good his character was written and how charismatic he was to the player and those in his gang. He's a narcissistic sociopath cult leader with delusions of grandeur - Arthur and John's observations both point to this in that, "Dutch is just becoming who he really is". His back is against a wall and people don't change that quickly - his change had started long ago as was evidenced by his actions on the boat in Blackwater and how he killed a girl, "in a bad way". Dutch does things to manipulate people into following him and not questioning or doubting him for any reason. I started replaying the game and all of Dutch's motivations and behavior have made much more sense to me. His flattery, his attitude regarding unquestioning loyalty. He even favors Micah, simply because Micah appears to be completely loyal to Dutch. All of this also makes me question Dutch's supposed intelligence - both John and Arthur appear to have to much more grounded self awareness and common sense than Dutch. Dutch is just highly literate, but he doesn't have any real philosophy of his own - he just perverts his own ideology from what he reads in books and throws his intellect around the camp to instill belief in his abilities as a leader. Declining sanity and paranoia can't remotely explain the completely brash, dangerous and asinine leadership decisions Dutch makes throughout the course of the game. Yeah - he's a smart guy in his own way, but really he's the Steve Jobs of the gang. Not to mention, he clearly enjoys killing and also is completely hellbent on revenge despite it being against his supposed code. Dutch also clearly doesn't have a grand or brilliant plan outside of "making money and running away".

Dutch buys loyalty from the gang with conditional love an being a shitty surrogate father to those at his side. I am a bit disappointing with the lack of exploration regarding Hosea since he seemed to be much more grounded in reality and at least as smart and probably more so, than Dutch. I do truly believe that Dutch believes in his own good nature and his "cause", but at the end of the day he's just a moderately intelligent criminal that has become reckless and drunk on the adoration of his followers until the point that he truly believes he can't make bad decisions.

 

[Sentinel]

It was kind of weird, they reacted like regular people who aren't used to violence. Shooting people during a botched robbery is fine but drowning a gangster who tried to get them killed* and dumping the body overboard is fucked up? Yeah ok.

Normal people don't react to violence by staring at it without moving. They usually run away. They looked at what Dutch was doing with great disappointment/surprise, because other than him killing that young woman in Blackwater, which he said wouldn't happen again, Dutch always avoided revenge and hurting innocents/hostages. The former is illustrated when Arthur says "You always said revenge isn't a game we have time for", and the second when John, during the second train robbery, reminds you to spare the innocent passengers - "there's no need for innocent blood", a teaching he got from Dutch.
Dutch killing Angelo (by feeding him to an alligator no less) was an act of pure savagery.

 

[sullynathan]

They actually do. No other company has even stepped close to Max Payne 3 for example. From sound FX, ragdoll physics, body gore, gun animations, RDR2/MP3 have the most satisfying 3rd person shooting in the market.

That's Max Payne 3 not the rest of non-GTA R* games.

 

[Loostreaks]

what? elaborate

They fill the world with activities, but there is no systematic connection/depth to it. You can do it for the "experience of doing it", but not much else. Same thing is with everything you do for your camp.
Now, not every game needs rpg mechanics...but this would be far more rewarding if systems like faction, reputation ( honor), side activities, economy and encounters/emergent gameplay were more interconnected, sort of Mount&Blade-esque system, to have a sense of world impact.
Similar to Bethesda: "freedom" means literally run in whatever direction, with no consequences to it.

inear =/= bad

There is linear..and then there is Rockstar design. You get mission fail/killed even for the most banal freeform attempt to play the game, like trying to flank your enemies. Their mission design is a straight line with invisible walls outside of doing anything game director exactly wants you to do. It completely clashes with all the level of detail they put into making the world seem believable.

how so? Rockstar games (that aren't GTA) have the best third person shooting.

Max Payne III: definitely, despite ( somewhat) clumsy player control/movement. Outside of this, absolutely no Rockstar game is even average. Clumsy aiming, cover system, barebones enemy AI and poor encounter design, lackluster weapons, rudimentary mechanics, ...MGSV, Uncharted 3+, Mass Effect 2+, Gears, Binary Domain, Resident Evil 4+, Icarus, Lost Planet 2, Mafia 3, Last of Us, etc, etc: all are drastically better. Saints Row games are only worse in comparison.
Driving/riding is great from Rockstar, but combat is inferior to nearly every "AAA" title.

 

[Sentinel]

They actually do. No other company has even stepped close to Max Payne 3 for example. From sound FX, ragdoll physics, body gore, gun animations, RDR2/MP3 have the most satisfying 3rd person shooting in the market.

That's Max Payne 3 not the rest of non-GTA R* games.

RDR2 is the rest of non-GTA R* games

 

[Sentinel]

what? elaborate

They fill the world with activities, but there is no systematic connection/depth to it. You can do it for the "experience of doing it", but not much else. Same thing is with everything you do for your camp.
Now, not every game needs rpg mechanics...but this would be far more rewarding if systems like faction, reputation ( honor), side activities, economy and encounters/emergent gameplay were more interconnected, sort of Mount&Blade-esque system, to have a sense of world impact.
Similar to Bethesda: "freedom" means literally run in whatever direction, with no consequences to it.

inear =/= bad

There is linear..and then there is Rockstar design. You get mission fail/killed even for the most banal freeform attempt to play the game, like trying to flank your enemies. Their mission design is a straight line with invisible walls outside of doing anything game director exactly wants you to do. It completely clashes with all the level of detail they put into making the world seem believable.

how so? Rockstar games (that aren't GTA) have the best third person shooting.

Max Payne III: definitely, despite ( somewhat) clumsy player control/movement. Outside of this, absolutely no Rockstar game is even average. Clumsy aiming, cover system, barebones enemy AI and poor encounter design, lackluster weapons, rudimentary mechanics, ...MGSV, Uncharted 3+, Mass Effect 2+, Gears, Binary Domain, Resident Evil 4+, Icarus, Lost Planet 2, Mafia 3, Last of Us, etc, etc: all are drastically better. Saints Row games are only worse in comparison.
Driving/riding is great from Rockstar, but combat is inferior to nearly every "AAA" title.

Sounds like you're just looking for an RPG where there isn't one. There aren't any "factions". There is however emergent gameplay and the systems definitely interact with each other to provide a loop. The problem is that the goal of every gameplay loop is getting money, which in Rockstar style becomes worthless about 15 hours into the game. They tried to correct this by granting other rewards for challenge completion/hunting, but I'm not big on any of the outfits so I mostly hunt and rob for the satisfaction of the shooting and harassing randoms on the road.

Max Payne III: definitely, despite ( somewhat) clumsy player control/movement. Outside of this, absolutely no Rockstar game is even average. Clumsy aiming, cover system, barebones enemy AI and poor encounter design, lackluster weapons, rudimentary mechanics, ...MGSV, Uncharted 3+, Mass Effect 2+, Gears, Binary Domain, Resident Evil 4+, Icarus, Lost Planet 2, Mafia 3, Last of Us, etc, etc: all are drastically better. Saints Row games are only worse in comparison.

I assume with this you're meaning to tell me you're just trolling, because aside from TLOU (and that's being generous), every game on that list has horrible gun feedback with subpar animations, average sound, shit ragdoll physics, and the AI is also non existent. Particularly the Uncharted, Mass Effect, and MGS games. Particularly, the only MGS game that had good gunplay and shooting was 4. It's funny that you mention AI and then cite Uncharted and TLOU as good examples, 2 games with notoriously bad AI that get stuck on each other all the time (and ignore you as they try to pathfind their way around the obstacle for 10 minutes). It's also funny that you say RDR2 has rudimentary shooting mechanics, when there's more factors that go into its shooting than any other games - from gun familiarity, gun cleanliness, manual revolver/carbine cocking, aiming steadiness affected by Stamina levels, weapon properties further affected by ammo type, gore and blood amount affected by ammo type...

 

[sullynathan]

RDR2 is the rest of non-GTA R* games

This games shooting isn't very good.

 

[Sentinel]

RDR2 is the rest of non-GTA R* games

This games shooting isn't very good.

If you liked Max Payne 3, saying the shooting in RDR2 isn't very good is just contrarianism. Sorry.

 

[GrainWetski]

No game has good shooting with a gamepad, so RDR 2 is included in that for now.

 

[sullynathan]

RDR2 is the rest of non-GTA R* games

This games shooting isn't very good.

If you liked Max Payne 3, saying the shooting in RDR2 isn't very good is just contrarianism. Sorry.

The shooting here is not Max Payne 3 and doesn't control as so.

 

[Sentinel]

RDR2 is the rest of non-GTA R* games

This games shooting isn't very good.

If you liked Max Payne 3, saying the shooting in RDR2 isn't very good is just contrarianism. Sorry.

The shooting here is not Max Payne 3 and doesn't control as so.

It's literally Max Payne 3 on steroids without the bullet time diving. The gore is there and expanded, the ragdoll physics are improved, the gun sounds are a lot better (they were shit in MP3 outside of bullet time for some reason), you have dive-dodging, aiming system is copy pasted from Max Payne 3, death cam system from Max Payne games is ported over and expanded, enemies have limb-damage system... You can even make yourself invincible just like Max with the amount of tonics you have and just run around shooting people in the dick for a time.
Max Payne 3 also had the input delay on initial movement. If RDR2 ever gets ported to PC they will have to fix their animation blending system to improve the input lag on initial walk movement in RDR2, because it's entirely designed with a controller in mind and the instantaneous input of a WASD system will make it unbearable.

 

[Adon]

There's nothing contrarian about finding the shooting to not be on par with Max Payne 3. RDR2's shooting, while it has some good hit reactions, is slow, sluggish, and not nearly as satisfying. No amount of feedback can save RDR2's shooting, nor do most of those subsystems that rarely play into an actual gunfight in any meaningful way other than cleanliness (when the game reminds you that you have to do it) and maybe stamina. And I can guarantee that if all those systems were to be meaningful, they would be more of a pain in the ass to deal with than anything else.

I like RDR2, but the shooting isn't why I played it, and with how restrictive missions are, I have hard time ever wanting to go back to it anytime soon. If the gameplay loop of a TPS isn't just finding more enemies to fight (which it isn't for RDR2) then I don't know how anyone can claim for it to be on par with games where the only goal is to shoot enemies.

 

[Talby]

The gameplay is trash in RDR2. The controls are sluggish as fuck, aiming feels like you're controlling the barrel of a tank, shitty cover system straight from a Gears of War clone from the Xbox 360. I have no idea how people suffer through this garbage and convince themselves they're having fun.

 

[Sentinel]

There's nothing contrarian about finding the shooting to not be on par with Max Payne 3. RDR2's shooting, while it has some good hit reactions, is slow, sluggish, and not nearly as satisfying. No amount of feedback can save RDR2's shooting, nor do most of those subsystems that rarely play into an actual gunfight in any meaningful way other than cleanliness (when the game reminds you that you have to do it) and maybe stamina. And I can guarantee that if all those systems were to be meaningful, they would be more of a pain in the ass to deal with than anything else.

I like RDR2, but the shooting isn't why I played it, and with how restrictive missions are, I have hard time ever wanting to go back to it anytime soon. If the gameplay loop of a TPS isn't just finding more enemies to fight (which it isn't for RDR2) then I don't know how anyone can claim for it to be on par with games where the only goal is to shoot enemies.

It's only as sluggish as you want it to be. The default settings of the game unfortunately are retard-proof so people come off it with misconceptions similar to yours. Disable auto aim and configure the sensitivity/acceleration/deadzone settings. There's plenty of videos on youtube of people doing very smooth no auto aim rambo runs through gang hideouts or towns. The only "sluggish" part of it is the movement, which no one can deny.

RDR2's shooting is slow

On account of there being no automatic rifles in 1899, yeah I think this is an inevitability. Dual wield instead. (Also Arthur runs faster than Max in combat)

 

[sullynathan]

It's literally Max Payne 3 on steroids without the bullet time diving. The gore is there and expanded, the ragdoll physics are improved, the gun sounds are a lot better (they were shit in MP3 outside of bullet time for some reason), you have dive-dodging, aiming system is copy pasted from Max Payne 3, death cam system from Max Payne games is ported over and expanded, enemies have limb-damage system... You can even make yourself invincible just like Max with the amount of tonics you have and just run around shooting people in the dick for a time.
Max Payne 3 also had the input delay on initial movement. If RDR2 ever gets ported to PC they will have to fix their animation blending system to improve the input lag on initial walk movement in RDR2, because it's entirely designed with a controller in mind and the instantaneous input of a WASD system will make it unbearable.

You have sticky lock-on and the gun cocking shooting that isn't in max payne 3 with widening reticle aiming that isn't in max payne 3. Max can't be invincible, there is something to Max Payne 3 combat that R* haven't replicated again.

 

[Sentinel]

You have sticky lock-on

Which can be disabled

the gun cocking shooting that isn't in max payne 3

Obviously. MP3 isn't even set in 1899 and has no single action revolvers that require hammer-cocking after every shot. Both the revolvers in that game are DA variant revolvers. Every other gun in that game is automatic aside from the 1 shotgun, and it'd make no sense to apply manual shell ejecting mechanic for a single weapon in an otherwise arcade shooting game.

widening reticle aiming that isn't in max payne 3

this is in max payne 3 though. in act both rdr2 and mp3 work the exact same way in this aspect, the only difference is UI.

Max can't be invincible

Neither can Arthur, as even with Gold Bars on Health you'll get shot down if you dont take cover. It's particularly noticeable in bounty hunter encounters how quickly they fuck you up.

 

[sullynathan]

You have sticky lock-on

Which can be disabled

the gun cocking shooting that isn't in max payne 3

Obviously. MP3 isn't even set in 1899 and has no single action revolvers that require hammer-cocking after every shot. Both the revolvers in that game are DA variant revolvers. Every other gun in that game is automatic aside from the 1 shotgun, and it'd make no sense to apply manual shell ejecting mechanic for a single weapon in an otherwise arcade shooting game.

widening reticle aiming that isn't in max payne 3

this is in max payne 3 though. in act both rdr2 and mp3 work the exact same way in this aspect, the only difference is UI.

Max can't be invincible

Neither can Arthur, as even with Gold Bars on Health you'll get shot down if you dont take cover. It's particularly noticeable in bounty hunter encounters how quickly they fuck you up.

the game plays worse disabling the sticky aim. Why would you do that?

Why say you can make yourself invincible like max if max can't be? While it's easy to die in RDR2, the game doesn't do much with it because most enemies either have really poor aim and poor weapons that do less damage than usual. The bounty hunters are the exception due to carrying good weapons and having good aim so you will die very quickly against them if you engage them in a fight without using dead eye much or without getting a drop on them.

Here's the thing, you will only fight bounty hunters if you've commited large crimes and stay in areas that you committed those crimes in. I would wager, most players won't commit those high bounty crimes like massacring an entire town without having a back-up save or without having enough money to pay it off. It's a good enough system that I learned the hard way by having a large bounty that I didn't pay off because I wanted to hunt and the bounty hunters kept hunting me.

This is something Max Payne 3 did far better because your regular enemies do have decent aim that only gets better by increasing difficulty, something you can't do in RDR2. The enemy encounters are also handled different in that RDR2 has more space so more enemies just stand out of cover during shootouts while Max payne 3 is set in far smaller arenas.

I also have to call BS on Max Payne 3 having the same reticle system as RDR2. Every time I shot someone in the former, my bullets hit. It didn't have the whole "stand in one place until your reticle got smaller " reticle that RDR2 has.

The combat and shooting is fine enough when doing things like hunting, robbing/getting robbed, or very quick shootouts against unsuspecting bandits/people. In the context of the main missions and long shootouts, it isn't very good and is remedial.

Finally, dead eye is just an inferior implementation of bullet time. You have to reach a certain story point to have manual choice of when to shoot with dead eye while bullet time allows you to just shoot and keep shooting as long as it is on. You are given more control over Max Payne than Arthur in combat by having more dives, rolls, grenades mapped to buttons, quicker weapon switching, ability to go prone, etc.

 

[Adon]

It's only as sluggish as you want it to be. The default settings of the game unfortunately are retard-proof so people come off it with misconceptions similar to yours. Disable auto aim and configure the sensitivity/acceleration/deadzone settings. There's plenty of videos on youtube of people doing very smooth no auto aim rambo runs through gang hideouts or towns. The only "sluggish" part of it is the movement, which no one can deny.

That wouldn't necessarily fix the issues with how slow the actual pace of the gunfights can be. At least not from my experience. Especially when the game loves to throw a million enemies at you. I know MP3 likes to do this too, but I never thought it was as excessive, and even when it was, it was still fun whereas longer gunfights in RDR2 just drag.

Mind linking one of these videos for a comparison?

On account of there being no automatic rifles in 1899, yeah I think this is an inevitability. Dual wield instead. (Also Arthur runs faster than Max in combat)

I know. It's a deliberate design decision (and I say this because I don't recall RDR1 being that slow either, but it does get close), but it's one that hampers the action. MP3 has a similar issue with the animations having priority, and it's a hassle there too, but it's not as bad because they had to implement the shoot dodge mechanic and build the game around diving around.

And yeah, I would assume it's because he has to run faster. Not due to the pace of the combat, but because of the sandbox design vs MP3's linear set-pieces.