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Game News Return of teh Jedi: JE Sawyer joins Obsidian

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
merry andrew said:
Vault Dweller said:
That (your example with kill, let die, join) is not the kind of choice he's talking about. Every game has those... Only when you get to the temple, you really get to choose something a few times, and BG didn't have anything like that.
Can you PM me what these great choices were? I never finished TOEE.
Here is a very detailed walkthough at GameBanshee:
http://www.gamebanshee.com/templeofelem ... hrough.php

See the Temple levels, that's where things get more intersting. To answer your questions, you can enter the temple in several ways, and can proceed, once inside, in a variety of ways. You have 6 different ways of dealing with Zuggtmoy, and you may decide to join the Temple.
 

Killzig

Cipher
Patron
Joined
Oct 28, 2002
Messages
997
Location
The Wastes
Feargus Urquhart said:
The pearls of wisdom dropped in these threads always amazes me.
Hi Fearg. Announce a project we're interested in so we can go harangue you on your forums already.
 

merry andrew

Erudite
Joined
Jan 17, 2004
Messages
1,332
Location
Ellensburg
Vault Dweller said:
See the Temple levels, that's where things get more intersting. To answer your questions, you can enter the temple in several ways, and can proceed, once inside, in a variety of ways. You have 6 different ways of dealing with Zuggtmoy, and you may decide to join the Temple.
Ah, I thought you were talking specifically about the elemental nodes or something. Definitely a matter of taste for me, as I wasn't very interested by the Temple in general. Without a good story those sorts of choices usually mean very little to me.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
28,024
Without choices generic quests like the ones in BG usually mean very little to me
 

Atrokkus

Erudite
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Feb 6, 2005
Messages
3,089
Location
Borat's Fantasy Land
BG had choices in side-quests and SO MANY options with partymembers (even more than in Torment).
Plus, the story was good and the quests weren't boring at all.
 

DemonKing

Arcane
Joined
Dec 5, 2003
Messages
5,958
BG1 > TOEE

1. There was a coherent plot.

2. What dialog there was, was better written.

3. Even if one accepts the NPCs fulfilled the same function at least the BG NPCs had a bit more character - superior voice acting, some fun dialog if you had certain members in your party simultaneously, little character quirks like not letting you loot certain items from them, and detailed back stories if you cared to dig a bit deeper in their character screens. In contrast TOEE NPCs were characterised by their desire to collect so many useless sets of leather armour they became too encumbered to move.

4. While you could definitely argue that TOEE allows you to make meaningful, game-affecting decisions, these were in many case rendered meaningless given that the plot was not coherent or explained. Many people stumbled into Zuggtmoy's lair early in the piece, made some dialog choices, and suddenly they're staring at a "Game Over" screen and wondering WTF?

Sure BG1 seems pretty lame and contrived by today's standards but TOEE demonstrated that a great turn-based combat engine is nothing without decent writing and a plot that make sense.
 

Atrokkus

Erudite
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Messages
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Location
Borat's Fantasy Land
I actually never played BG1.

BG2, tho, was one of the best RPGs i've ever played.

Have you actually played BG2?
I'm not saying that it was better or worse than Torment: it's just lame to compare great games like that.
I'm just saying that BG2's NPC interactions (between them and PC) were the best of the genre.
Just tell me where else would an evil NPC *fight* a good one, while inside the party? Romances were also pretty good.
NPCs were good. Maybe not so as in TOrment, but still far from boring.
Plus, BG2 had such outstanding guild-system - fortresses.
 

Diogo Ribeiro

Erudite
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Messages
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Lisboa, Portugal
mEtaLL1x said:
Have you actually played BG2?

No, I like making general posts about things I have no experience in.


If your sarcasm detector didn't blew up in the face, then yes, I have played Baldur's Gate 2, and replayed it more times than I care to publicly admit.

I'm not saying that it was better or worse than Torment: it's just lame to compare great games like that. I'm just saying that BG2's NPC interactions (between them and PC) were the best of the genre.

You've stated that Baldur's Gate 2 had more options when it came to party members when compared to Torment. This simply isn't true.

To begin with, you cannot initiate dialogue with party NPCs in Baldur's Gate 2 - all dialogue is initiated by them instead. This is opposed to the ability you have to engage in conversation at pretty much any time with any party NPC in Torment. This alone is one option Torment has over BG2, and one of the more important ones (if not the most important one).

When you engaged in conversation with them, you had a range of topics which you could discuss when you saw fit, especially including topics that pertained to the group's advancement trough the game itself or according to the nature and development of the PC's personal story. Again, this isn't possible to do in BG2 in the same level and depth that is possible in Torment.

Also, another option Torment has over Baldur's Gate 2 is the ability to influence, or be influeced by comrades by means of interaction. This is actually a two-fold situation.

On one hand, depending on how you interact with some members, their morale can be lowered or lifted, which has consequences. Dak'kon's blade, for one, will grow in power if you are kind to him, and the reverse - treating him badly and seeing his skills falter - also applies. Another example is your ability to improve Annah's thieving skills when your skills surpass hers, by suggesting new sneaky movements to her.

On the other hand, you have the ability to improve the main PC when interacting with party members. An example would be the ability to also learn with Annah when you are a low level Thief. Also, being a Mage and interacting with Ignus will allow you to sacrifice pieces of yourself in order to learn new magical abilities.

The above abilities are not present in Baldur's Gate 2.


Just tell me where else would an evil NPC *fight* a good one, while inside the party?

Your question is a trick question, because there aren't any evil-aligned NPCs in Torment. However, Ignus has an evil streak in him (clearly shown in several situations in the game) and will attack the party if his wrath is invoked. Also, there is a chance that Vhailor will attack people in the party who he deems to have commited evil - like the Nameless One, Morte or Annah. This is pretty much a precursor to what Keldorn does with Viconia in the party in BG2.


Romances were also pretty good.

Opinions aside, both games have the option so it's a tie.
 

Atrokkus

Erudite
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Messages
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Borat's Fantasy Land
Don't get me wrong: I love Torment so very much.
But it's just improper to compare the two games.

Probably, the reason of our arguement is that you we had different experience with the game and party members in particular. This is normal.
I just got more hooked up by BG2 party members, than the Torment. Although it's kinda hard to compare, again, they both are dear to me...

Let's settle on that Torment and BG2 Party members are equal, okay?
 

Diogo Ribeiro

Erudite
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Lisboa, Portugal
No, the reason of my argument is not due to my experiences with the game; it's due to Baldur's Gate 2 simply not having many more options pertaining to party members than Torment.

Also, if you feel it's improper to compare the two games, then why did you make a comparison yourself, on a quantitative level? Claiming one game has a higher number of options involving party members between than the other is a comparison.
 

jiujitsu

Cipher
Joined
Mar 11, 2004
Messages
1,444
Project: Eternity
POOPERSCOOPER said:
STFU vault dweller. Even if we all hate Bioware you still have to admit that BG had better NPCs and quests compared to TOEE. If you can't give in to that then you are a mindless fanboi who masturbates to RPGcreator2000.


edit: faggot

Greatest ever.
 

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2002
Messages
28,343
Feargus Urquhart said:
The pearls of wisdom dropped in these threads always amazes me.
Shutup bitch. If fags like you made better RPGs in the first place, we wouldn't be having these conversations. It's all your fault. Entirely.

ToEE would've been the greatest game ever if it had modding capabilities - The stream of D&D mods available right now would be endless. Unfortunately, they went with tiles, made it hard to mod and fucked up the story.

ToEE sucked.

DemonKing said:
Many people stumbled into Zuggtmoy's lair early in the piece, made some dialog choices, and suddenly they're staring at a "Game Over" screen and wondering WTF?
It's true. I am one of those people. Worse yet, the game over slideshow mentioned a whole lot of shit I hadn't even seen yet so it was a double-whammy WTF.
 

bryce777

Erudite
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Feb 4, 2005
Messages
4,225
Location
In my country the system operates YOU
mEtaLL1x said:
Don't get me wrong: I love Torment so very much.
But it's just improper to compare the two games.

Probably, the reason of our arguement is that you we had different experience with the game and party members in particular. This is normal.
I just got more hooked up by BG2 party members, than the Torment. Although it's kinda hard to compare, again, they both are dear to me...

Let's settle on that Torment and BG2 Party members are equal, okay?

Put down the crack pipe.

There is abou ten times as much interaction with your party in torment. Period. You must have simply either never spoken to any party members or else played a dumb fighter with no dialogue options.
 

Atrokkus

Erudite
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Feb 6, 2005
Messages
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Location
Borat's Fantasy Land
Chill out, it's all a matter of taste. I really love both games, but BG2's chars were just a bit more charismatic to me. I mean the party members. Of course, neutral/hostile NPCs were much more copious and better in Torment, that's a fact.

Alright, let's stop comparing the Greatest of games, it's as dumb as comparing FO2 and FO1.
 

PrzeSzkoda

Augur
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
632
Location
Zork - Poland
Project: Eternity
The most hilarious thing in both BGs (and any IE game I've played) is that even when your character was an utter and complete idiot (intelligence stat of 3 and below) you still had all the dialouge options available - even those extensively elaborate. Forrest Gump would be proud.

And joinable NPCs, especially in BG1, annoyed me so much that I finished both games without any of them in my party (joining them for a while or two in order to get all those zany quests did the trick), whilst in PS:T I had them hang around all the time and loved every minute of it.

DarkUnderlord said:
Feargus Urquhart said:
The pearls of wisdom dropped in these threads always amazes me.
Shutup bitch. If fags like you made better RPGs in the first place, we wouldn't be having these conversations. It's all your fault. Entirely.

Yeah, and to add to the fun those fags are guilty of commiting grammar errors that Polish schoolchildren laugh at.
 

Ap_Jolly

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
552
Location
Negropolis
Don't worry about him, he's "ded".
Seriously though, Obsidian needs hits, not old games made 5 years ago.
 

Sarkile

Magister
Patron
Joined
Aug 13, 2003
Messages
1,380
mEtaLL1x said:
Alright, let's stop comparing the Greatest of games, it's as dumb as comparing FO2 and FO1.

Why's that dumb? FO2 is like FO1's retarded brother, that's a fact.
 

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