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Review of first NWN 2 modules

aboyd

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Can I just say that I continue to not be impressed with Purgatorio's dialogue? They seem to have replaced the Cant with Cockney. Their latest video has one NPC saying something like "give me yer bleedin' money." There is a list online that supposedly contains every word in the Cant that was ever put into the official books, and it doesn't have "bleedin." For that matter, even if it did have it, I think I still would not like it, as it's too modern. One slip like that would be OK, but I've seen a few like that, and that's just from a couple of demo videos.

The whole scenario with the "this is a stick-up" line doesn't sit well with me either. Am I being too sensitive about this? I think I just have my standards up at PS:T levels, and I'm not able to get them down to the "stop over-analyzing and just play it" level.

I guess a lot of what I love about Planescape is the Cant, so I hate to see them getting it wrong. I bet most other players won't care. Perhaps I'm starting to sound like a Fallout fanatic who won't let go of isometric view.
 

MLMarkland

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Planar Cant -is- derived from cockney slang or thieve's cant, most particularly 19th century vulgar cant. Check out sources like Francis Grose' 1812 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue and you will find entries such as "berk", "sod", "barmy".

Obviously not all cant phrases are derived from real-world cant. A phrase such as "Go to the Mazes" is constructed in a cant-esque way but is referencing a sourcebook specific idea, the Lady's Mazes.

Planescape has always been and will always be a pastiche of many things. It is a campaign setting where Zeus seduces women on top of Mount Olympus in Elysium, Thor bashes around Ysgard, you might run into a Kender from Krynn and everyone who's anyone in Sigil speaks as if they are from 19th century London.

In all things, the sourcebooks are our guide, rather than Torment. I love Torment as much as the next guy, but nothing in Purgatorio is based on Torment, it is based on the original source books, and you'd be hard pressed to find many people who have read those source books as often and as critically as the people writing for our modules.

Additionally, most of the online cant dictionaries include user-contributed phrases (mimir.net is a prime example). Mimir.net is a great site, I consult it all the time, but it's not a site that is limited to source-cant definitions. From the website:"Cant most recently added: 26th May: ... one hundred and twenty new cant terms ... plus, all the terms from the Official PS Sources! ..." [emphasis added] I haven't actually counted, but I think it's a safe bet that the player-created cant entries on mimir.net outnumber the official sourcebook cant entries.

Finally, no one ever says "This is a stick-up", the line is "Nobody pikin' move, this is a bleedin' robbery."
 

aboyd

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No, you're right, I understand that the Cant is based on Cockney slang -- but according to the guys who came up with Planescape, it was supposed to imitate language from the 1600s and 1700s, not 2007. I'm sorta convinced that I won't find bleedin' in the 1812 dictionary you mention. But again, even I did, I feel that it's too modern. It's "slang" that is still contemporary. And I'd pin the 1812 dictionary on the tail end of the life of the language -- after that, I'd suspect it was co-opted by the establishment. It had been featured in many plays and books by that time, and it wasn't really a secret language anymore.

I guess since in Planescape the language is not a secret language but rather the common tongue, that it might make sense that it copies what happened in real life once the language was popularized. But in my D&D books, they had a pretty clear cut-off that omitted anything modern or overly familiar.

Anyway, it's silly for us to try to convince each other about this. I mean, even if you're right and modern slang is allowed, it won't change my mind that I don't like it. It will just convince me that the Cant isn't as perfect as I'd hoped, and I'll pine harder for something that hews closer to PS:T.

And whatever the case, I'm going to play all 3 modules/campaigns you release, and I will probably enjoy them very much.
 

MLMarkland

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You are absolutely entitled to your preferences regarding Planar Cant, but the word bleeding or bleedin' absolutely -is- a source book cant term.

The most regular appearance of bleedin' or bleeding is in the phrase "bleeding cully" but it's been used in other formats as well.

A bleeding cully is a sucker, a good mark for a con, someone a crosstrader is likely to bob or tunneljack.

Usage: "That berk is a bleeding cully, got bobbed out on Ragpicker's last peak."

The Grose reference:

http://www.fromoldbooks.org/Grose-VulgarTongue/b/bleeding-cully.html

The Mimir reference is under "b" for bleeding:

http://www.mimir.net/cant/cant2.html

I guess the point I am making here, is that we aren't using modern slang. We are using 18th and 19th century slang (1700-1899), and that some of that slang has persisted all the way up to today. That doesn't make the slang modern, it just makes it persistent. The most commonly known Planar Cant slang word is probably "to pike", as in "pike off". Telling someone to pike off, or calling someone a piker are both pretty prevalent usages even today, two-hundred or more years after the phrases were originally coined. Pike off, barmy, berk and addled are all used in Torment, and are all words and phrases still in common usage around the world (or at least not uncommon usage).

You can certainly prefer Torment's style. I'm not asking you to prefer our style. But I will make a very strong case that our style is actually more in line with the source material in some cases than Torment's style (and the same can be said in reverse in other cases).

We are very meticulous about adhering to the Planescape source material. Any minor deviations from that material almost always come about due to technical limitations. For example, substantial portions of Sigil are made of wood in our version of Sigil, and there is a references in one source book that there is no wood in Sigil. But, even in this case, there are images of arguably wooden buildings in some books -and- the absence of wood isn't particularly logical or necessary given that there is no concomitant absence of water or air. All three can be easily imported via portals, and the import of water and air through portals is mentioned in some source books.
 

aboyd

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You're right, bleeding cully is a term there. But it means something different from bleedin' (which is primarily just for emphasis). This:

"Give me yer bleedin' money!"

...Means "give me your damn money!" or something close to that. This:

"Give me yer money, you bleeding cully!"

...Means "Give me your money, you spending-money-like-water fool!"

It's a little different usage. But again, I suspect neither of us will convince the other. It's your game, make it as you intend.

And thank you for the linguistic debate. An old English geek such as myself rarely gets the chance.
 

MLMarkland

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The usage is arguably different, but I think it emphasizes one aspect of canting which is the use of words with double meaning. To say "bleeding cully" you are both emphasizing with the word bleeding and using it in its alternate meaning, "to bleed." The double entendre is a big part of cant.

Regardless, it's an interesting discussion to be had. I just don't want our work to be characterized as "using modern slang" because nothing could be further from the truth. We are using -exactly- the type of language that the original creators of Planescape intended be spoken by the denizens of the Hive Ward.

That we are expanding on the definitional set of cant terms by returning to historical documents is not only an interesting exercise, it is also a -necessary- exercise.

In order to create a fully realized world, linguistically-speaking, in which several hundred NPCs interact with the PC over the course of over a hundred thousand words of dialog, we -need- additional terminology beyond the few dozen words and phrases specifically defined in source books.
 
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This may be of some interest.

Today's word bloody comes to us from Old English, where it was blodig. The Old English version comes ultimately from the Germanic *blotham, whose derivative *blothjan gaves us English bleed. German blut, Dutch bloed, and Swedish blod all come from *blotham, as well. Blood in the Romance languages comes from Latin sanguis (from which English gets sanguine), and the Greek word for blood was haima (English hemorrhage, hematoma, etc. come from the Greek source). As far as bloody being used as a chiefly British expletive, that dates from the 17th century. There is not a widely accepted explanation for its origin. One suggests that the word is a contraction of by our Lady, our Lady being Mary, the mother of God; another explanation is that the word became an `intensive,' as linguists call such words, by way of the nickname for Mary I of England, Bloody Mary.

A do agree with aboyd however that -bleedin'- has a modern ring to it. The reference to "bleeding cully" is unconvincing; it's quite clear to me, at least, that "bleeding" in the context isn't used for emphasis, but to give "bleeding cully" its meaning. What's wrong with good old bloody, soddin', and pikin'?
 

MLMarkland

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I fail to see how "bleeding" used for emphasis is any more modern than "bloody" by way of emphasis. If you can point to something that says "bleeding was used for emphasis beginning in the year 19XX" that might help make the case. But I don't think the case is worth making anyways, and it won't change our use of the word. Because someone "feels" the word is too modern, doesn't make it too modern.

We can take the linguistic machine gun to every word in the module.

We can critically analyze every concept in Planescape.

We can demand some sort of absolute logic and reality from this game, but that is going to be a hard case to make when the setting has elements of Greek mythology and Steampunk, figures and place names from the Hebrew and Christian Bibles, references to Sumerian deities, Tolkien-inspired races, weaponry ranging from stone age to 18th century, gnomes working impossible mechanical contraptions driven by steam, a Great Modron March and tens of thousands of other bizarre and completely unrealistic elements.

I don't expect everyone to agree with all of the decisions we make. I am going to point out that we make all of our decisions based on sound principles and with careful consideration. People can enjoy this or not, it is entirely up to them.

I am completely comfortable with the way we are reconstructing the Planescape campaign setting in the highly challenging context of a modern PC game engine.

I want people to enjoy the game modules. I think a lot of people will enjoy them.

Some people won't. That's fine. You can't make everyone happy all the time. You'll be lucky to make half the people happy half the time.
 
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The Oxford English Dictionary gives the following citation:

1858 Furnivall in Athenæum 24 July 118 Costermongers have lately substituted the participle ‘bleeding’ for the adjective [‘bloody’]. ‘My bleeding barrow’ is the latest phrase in vogue.
This would suggest that the term was relatively new in 1858; not 17th or 18th century, certainly.

There is also some indication that "bloody" doesn't stem from "bleed" at all, but is a bastardisation of "by the Lady"; this would also mean that "bleeding" was probably derived from "bloody", as a less offensive form. Interestingly enough, "by the Lady" would take on a whole new meaning in Sigil...

Either way, it's not a huge deal by any stretch of the imagination. It's just that (like aboyd) I can't shake the feeling that the text is off, somewhat. Not world-shattering or anything. Keep up the good work.
 

MLMarkland

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Right, 1858 fits in the 18-19th century range of 1700-1899 that I referenced up above. The cant that forms the basis for Planar Cant is 18-19th century stuff not 17th century (1600-1699). I have no idea if idioms like "bleeding" and "bloody" were used in the 17th century or not. I was a film major, not a linguistics major, and it's also not relevant to what we are doing.

Like you said it's a minor point, but clearly "bleeding" is not modern slang, but rather a carry-over from at least a century-and-a-half ago (though it is certainly within anyone's rights to interpret any word however they want, especially in the context of a game).

Additionally, nationality probably figures into this whole interpretation of slang thing too. I would expect people in cultures where "bleeding" or "bloody" or "piker" are commonly used words will find Planar Cant to have, in general, a more modern feel than people living in the United States.
 

Texas Red

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Lumpy said:
What the fuck?

I dont want to insult anyone but yeah, this thread was interesting before this word origin or whatever dicussion kicked in.
 

MLMarkland

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The Walkin' Dude said:
Lumpy said:
What the fuck?

I dont want to insult anyone but yeah, this thread was interesting before this word origin or whatever dicussion kicked in.

I don't feel insulted. I'm not particularly interested in spending my time discussing stuff like that, but I do feel obligated to respond when someone characterizes Purgatorio in a way that I feel is not accurate. That's all. I want folks to enjoy Purgatorio, but I want to make it clear to folks that it is not a remake of Torment, a sequel to Torment or based on Torment, and that we are very interested in achieving a high degree of source-accuracy in the modules, etc.
 
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Strap Yourselves In Codex+ Now Streaming!
Meh, the discussion was interesting, although my knowledge of the english language is far too limited to conclude who of you two is right. Dont bother with TWD, his double dumbfuck should tell you anything you need to know.
 

MLMarkland

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TalesfromtheCrypt said:
Meh, the discussion was interesting, although my knowledge of the english language is far too limited to conclude who of you two is right. Dont bother with TWD, his double dumbfuck should tell you anything you need to know.

Fair enough. Like I said, I don't expect everyone to agree with all the choices we make over the course of making Purgatorio, I just want folks to know that we are cognizant of all of the myriad concerns and are just doing our best to make a cool Planescape game module for NWN2.

I look at it like this (analogy incoming)...

Godfather 1+2 arguably ranks as one of the most impressive feats in film making, but it would be a shame if it foreclosed all future cinematic examinations of American mafia culture in the mid-20th century.

If no one could touch the mid-1900s gangster genre post-Godfather, we wouldn't have gotten Goodfellas - which is probably not as good a movie as either Godfather 1 or 2, but is still a very awesome movie. Goodfellas has a whole different aesthetic, tone, and style compared with Godfather, but it's still coming from the same source material.

I'm not comparing Purgatorio in a qualitative sense to either movie, but if PS:T is the Godfather of the crpg genre, then look at what were are doing as the Goodfellas. It's a little smarmier, a little less dark, a little more baroque and excessive, there's a lot of people using cocaine, and it's Ray Liotta's best work.

In this analogy, Roz, our head story writer is Ray Liotta. I'm Joe Pesci.

-----brrzt

back to topic of the thread

I think I'm going to play Subtlety of Thay as soon as we get the next round of testing going for Purg, so if anyone has tried it, lemme know how it was.
 

Starwars

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I think I'm going to play Subtlety of Thay as soon as we get the next round of testing going for Purg, so if anyone has tried it, lemme know how it was.

I enjoyed it all in all, but it lacks (or lacked, haven't played it after the updates the author did) a lot of polish. The first half of the module was pretty pleasant, exploring the town and talking to the citizens etc. If I remember correctly, there was some nice roleplaying opportunities there.
The second half of the mod is almost all hack'n'slash with story bits served in between. I didn't like this very much, it felt a bit strange since the beginning is much slower paced.
Nevertheless, the story is kinda good, and I look forward to seeing where it goes.

Subtlety of Thay (together with Nighthowls) are the first ones IMO that kinda venture into the more ambitious types of mod for NWN2, though I don't think they quite reach the finish line. They show a lot of promise though.
I think it was definetely worth playing them through (I'm more partial to Nighthowls), but don't expect anything truly amazing.
 

OSK

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Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
How difficult is it to create a module for NWN2? Is it mostly a drag and drop affair for the environments and a bit of simple scripting for quests? I've never bothered to open the toolset... then again I never bothered to finish the main quest yet.
 

aboyd

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It's way harder than NWN 1, if you've used that. In NWN 1, you had a simple tile-based map-building system. You had a few wizards to assist in the assembly of objects/npcs/dialogue. I built a basic NWN 1 module -- 2 areas, a couple of merchants and a tiny bit of dialogue -- in about an hour.

In NWN 2, there are far fewer wizards, many things are more manual, and the layout of your maps is far more intensive. There are good points, such as that the dialogue editor is laid out more intuitively. And of course, maps are more powerful and unique, even if the price is that the editor is more difficult. But I would say that creating my 2 area module with a couple of merchants and some NPCs with tiny bits of dialogue would probably take me a day in NWN 2.

After I learn a lot of its quirks, I'm sure I could go much faster. But my point is that in NWN 1, I didn't have that hurdle to overcome. I was productive right away.
 

Starwars

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This is slightly off-topic I suppose, but have anyone played the Bioware Premium Mods for NWN1? I just played Pirates of the Sword Coast and thought it was fun in a lighthearted way. It was also nice since a "piratey" setting is always fun. There were some nice RPing and skill checks here and there also.

Any of the other ones worth playing?
 

aboyd

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Yes, many of the premium modules are good. I'd pass on Infinite Dungeons, Shadowguard, and Witch's Wake. As for Pirates, I personally liked it because of the crafting. I'd never bothered with crafting in any other module.

Let's see, you also have Kingmaker. That is just excellent -- one of the few modules with real humor, and NPCs that are real characters. In addition, some of the story feels like "choosing the lesser of two evils" in that some choices are not easy or obvious. Another Codexer called this "choice & consequence galore." I'm not sure it's galore but it is at least implemented as a good try. I liked it.

What else? I'm going by memory here. Darkness Over Daggerford is the premium-module-to-be that was eventually given away for free. That one has a very Baldur's Gate feel. There are many, many side quests. Most are good. NPCs (and I don't mean joinable ones -- just the characters you might talk to in the game) are interesting. This is also the module that has a stronghold, sort of like a prototype of the stronghold you get in NWN 2. It's enjoyable to modify the living daylights out of it, and get benefits from it.

Wyvern Crown of Cormyr is the module with horses. I really liked it, once. The jousting was fun one time, then it was just something to plow through to get the story going. But the horses themselves are pretty useful -- they carry a lot, they fight, they move faster than normal walking, etc. It's a bit of a pain to keep track of them after you tether them somewhere. The storyline is pretty good. This is more linear than Daggerford. You cannot go back to areas once you pass them, so if you see an opportunity to do a side quest in the area you're in, take it. You won't get back to it later.

There is one non-premium module I'd suggest, too. That's the Tales of Arterra series. If you do decide to do it, use the walkthrough to get the 3 companions. Without the walkthrough it's nearly impossible. Once you have the 3 companions, throw away the walkthrough and just enjoy the game. Part 1 is good, part 2 is terrific (IMHO).

There are a LOT of topics on NWN 1 modules here in the Codex. Search for 'em.
 

Starwars

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Thanks for the tips aboyd. I tried Wyvern Crown a bit, but I lost interest after a while. The same thing happened with Darkness over Daggerford. They're both well made, but they just don't grip me for some reason.

Played through Kingmaker and definetely enjoyed it. Wish it was a bit longer, but was well worth playing through.

I've played through Tales of Arterra, and they are indeed very good. Very high up on my favourte mod list for sure.

A new NWN2 mod called Dark Avenger was released. This is just the first chapter (about 3 hours playtime I think) of a longer series. I spent some time with but didn't finish it yet, it's pretty good so far. Writing is pretty decent, and there is a nifty system for creating your background (though unfortunately I have no idea if these choices actually matter). Gonna finish it tomorrow.
 

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