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Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Prime Junta, Apr 17, 2016.

  1. Invictus Arcane The Real Fanboy

    Invictus
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    Divinity: Original Sin 2
    Are there some higher res texture packs for this game? I recall some but those were done years ago so I don’t know if something more up to date came along afterwards?
     
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  2. Multidirectional Arcane

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    Textures are fine. Force Supersampling/MSAA + Anisotropic Filtering from your GPU. Needs nothing else.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2018
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  3. Old One Arcane

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    Last time I used ReShade or something to tweak the graphics and make the shadows darker. Looked nice (with no apparent performance hit), but not strictly necessary. It made see-in-the-dark abilities slightly more valuable though, I suppose.
     
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  4. Black Angel Arcane

    Black Angel
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    So in my previous post in this thread, I said I wanted to post an impression after finishing this game for the first time, well here it is.

    I played through the game while having the Basic version of Wesp5's Unofficial Patch, and I'm glad the widescreen mod were included already, so I don't have to install multiple tweaks and patches like I had to with Arcanum. All in all, it was rather smooth experience, silky 60 FPS smooth despite playing on rather ancient laptop, with only one or two CTD on ~40 hours of gameplay, coupled with slowing down frame rate here and there but nothing too off-putting. There's some bugs and glitches that I can't exactly remember what they were, but following Wesp's advice all I need is to reload a previous save and the problems solved, since playing most RPGs I automatically save nearly every minute or two, especially when playing games that were notoriously buggy.

    As for the game itself, all the good and the bad that has been said, I wouldn't repeat it again. But I do have some things I want to say about this game:
    Show Spoiler

    1. The character creation sheet was nice, lots of variables like primary attributes that's separated into Physical, Social, Mental, and then secondary ones like Talents, Skills, and Knowledge, etc etc. However, I feel like this whole system is... redundant? Dull? Boring? I'm not sure how to say it, but the point is, when it comes to the gameplay itself, the only numbers that matters is the Feats on the right side of the screen. None of the attributes itself really comes into play, because all that matters is the statistic they affected. The experience points accumulation that were then used to 'buy' attribute points is interesting by itself, and I can kinda see from where AoD's 'leveling' up system got their inspiration from, and I don't see anything's wrong with that, especially since with only this pool, you can also level up your Vampiric abilities and also Humanity, but like I said, the attribute-feats system felt dull to me because the attributes doesn't really come into play and all that you gotta pay attention to is the feats. I'd assume this implementation is actually inherent to the tabletop system itself, and if that's the case, I'm not sure I'll like it if the day come when I finally arrange a P&P RPG session :negative:. This is just me, though, since coming from robust cRPG systems like Fallout & Arcanum, where nearly every number you can see on character screen has at least one direct effect on gameplay, having to choose which of the Attributes I want to spend my experience points on, only to realize they don't really influence the gameplay directly and/or being checked and, only influence the Feats, I personally felt it somewhat bland in comparison.
    2. I made the 'mistake' of playing Malkavians on my first playthrough. I realized it too late that the Malkavians were meant to be post-first playthrough only so we can see how the game was designed to make different playthrough plays differently, and yet.... I LOVE IT! I love it I love it I love it. The first time I glanced at Malkavians description, my curiosity exploded, since not many games allowed us to play actually insane characters. The only games I've played where the character have their sanity questioned is American McGee's Alice and its sequel, Alice: Madness Returns, hence why I was rather confident trying to play an insane character and already had a general idea that it might be equal to like playing a dumbass in Fallout/Arcanum. Except, the Kindreds are all rather understanding of my clan's shenanigans, so I still had access to most of the content, yet the best thing about this? The NPCs actually responded based on the literal wordings of my character's insane ramblings! It isn't like how, in other mediocre RPGs, the NPCs would just give some scripted responses based on seemingly different dialogue lines that's actually an exact same dialogue node of other characters, oh no. The Kindred immediately catches on that my character is a Malkavian, while the Kine's just shake their heads in confusion. It's rather questionable that the social checks dialogue from Persuasion and Seduction doesn't seems like insane ramblings, though. Anyway, I hope playing Malkavian for my first time doesn't cheat me of the experience when I replay it with different character. Oh well, I have experience the game once with Basic Patch, next I'll go for UP+.
    3. Let's talk about the content.
      • Santa Monica is choke full of :incline:, but a questionable sequence appeared relatively early in the game right here: The Ocean House. Some people praises it, I see, and I agree it was rather atmospheric when you experience it for the first time. However, rationale kicks in and I wondered, "Wait a minute, I'm a fucking vampire. An insane vampire, on top of it. What's to be afraid of?". And so I marched on with vampiric courage, some jump-scare and heart-stopping moments here and there, and then I realize.... there's really nothing more to it. Like people said before, it's just go from point A to point B to point C. There's really no exploration in here, only keep going and force your way towards your objective. In the middle of suffering through it, I also realize.... this isn't a content I want to experience on my next playthrough. It felt like Temple of Trials all over again, except at least Temple of Trials doesn't last more than 5-10 minutes especially with the right build. Oh well, moving on...
      • Having Obfuscate means an easy zero kill-count at the Warehouse, but then I wondered how one can sneak past all these guys because I also actually tried using regular sneaking and, while difficult, I noticed some parts where it seemed impossible to by pass with regular sneaking without having to kill anyone.
      • Moving on, Downtown were filled with :incline: too, but the symptom of bad dungeon design is repeated with the Hospital. However, at least with the Hospital the build up to meeting another clan of vampire was nice, although having to return to her is tedious, and it's so dumb not having a shortcut of some sort so we don't have to actually backtrack. What's the point of that vent on the floor near the entrance, anyway? I was under an impression that that was meant to be the shortcut, but it's locked and I never got a key for it. Is it a content restored by UP+?
      • Up next is Grout's Mansion. Damn, I immediately got American McGee's Alice vibes from this place, right down to the checkered floors. The insane inhabitants, the interior designs, the puzzles, and Grout's character that we can deduce based on his audio logs.... this dungeon is probably the only one I got to love in this game despite having rather annoying enemies.
      • Hollywood is where I begin to notice that the place is relatively much smaller compared to Santa Monica/Downtown. I'd assume this is where they begin to start rushing things. Having said that, at least this place is still cool, full of neatly designed quests, and the whole snuff film sequence that also takes you through the whole area was also pretty cool.
      • The 609 King's Way was not bad, you enter the building from the topmost floor and make your way down to it. The enemies are annoying and the jump-scare attempts were cheap, but at least it's over before I know it, since the boss fight weren't that difficult. Having said that, the sewer that comes next can fuck itself, and the previously annoying enemies are now REALLY annoying enemies that can also fuck themselves. I know they were designed to hunt down Nosferatus, but damn at least allows a character with at least level 3 Obfuscate or even level 4 have some chance of bypassing them. Instead, they were scripted to wander the areas hyperactively, and the moments when I can bypass them with their backs turned to me, they notice me anyway. Not to mention it drags on, I heard that the UP+ allowed us to bypass the sewer entirely, I'm gonna get them for second playthrough.
      • It's clear Chinatown is where they finally drop the ball. The quest sequence is: rescue a kidnapped daughter -> gain information from a death-sentenced guy -> meet the guy who supposedly passed the sentence, and then kill him -> rescue yet another kidnapped. It just happens so fast, and before I know it, it's over already. At least the last sequence of the main quest here, which is getting experimented upon, is rather cool because of the puzzle/problem solving. And the sidequests here were also cool. Fixing broken bridges, doing creepy things for a creepy guy, helping out a :desu: Hunter... but it's not enough in the end. Props to Ming-Xiao seemingly unfazed by the development since our character's arrival, though. It's clear she's pulling the strings behind The Mandarin, but the fact that she doesn't seem to even flinch when we mentioned his description is rather unsettling. Bugged or intended? Hmm..
      • The Giovanni's weren't bad, either. It's rather cool you can have a miss-able sidequest in a one-time visit area like this. I don't remember anything particularly interesting about the catacombs beneath the mansion, but at least it doesn't drags on. The boss fight were also fine, not bad but nothing challenging either.
      • The Inquisition's mansion were also not that bad, it's actually neatly designed more as a hideout instead of a dungeon, so yet another sequence that doesn't drag on... if not for that boss fight. So fucking annoying, only one-two hits before he just teleported away since I was playing an Unarmed character. Kinda funny that the boss takes his time to push the button while our character just chat merrily with the Professor but, eh, at least it's over when I want it to. And here... we... go...
      • The endgame sequence is a fucking hell that I'm not sure I'm ready to experience sooner now. The Sabbat dungeon can fuck itself, although the bossfight was fine. The Temple dungeon can also fuck itself, and the most annoying bossfight of them all. Not only Ming-Xiao is an HP-sponge, severing her tentacles (which, I'd assume a way to deal highest damage to her) actually spawned a copy of her which, if you let them grow to full size, can deal full damage and takes 3-4 hits before they disappear). What's funny is that you can actually exploit her behavior since most of her melee attacks are actually medium-ranged so if you stick close right next to her, she doesn't deal any damage. But fucking hell her HP.... you really gotta cheese her here, I actually spend most of my hoarded XPs for Ranged Combat feat and waste bullets and fuels on her. But realizing about her stupid AI behavior kinda late, I didn't think of switching to Unarmed but whatever.... another funny thing about her is that her overall designs actually reminded me Ebrietas, Daughter of the Cosmos from Bloodborne. Her eldritch appearance, using ranged puke (?) attacks when we're too far, right down to that charging move :lol: but unlike Ming-Xiao, Ebrietas wasn't a pushover. And in a way, her severed tentacles turning into a copy of her is kinda similar to Pinwheel, but at least Pinwheel wasn't an HP-sponge. Heh. And then the Venture Tower sequence, can also fuck itself. However, at the very least the Sheriff bossfight was quite cool in my book. The one-on-one melee between my two unarmed hands vs. his big ass sword can be over relatively quickly once you get a hang of it and also use your Discipline once in a while, and although the roof battle can drag on too long, at least it was spiced up by human NPCs not even caring about you and, instead, shooting at the giant bat flying around the tower like any normal humans should. They actually acted as a source of replenishment for blood, so I can spam Vision of Death (level 3 Dementation) on those Protean(?) transformed fuckers and also on the giant Bat itself. Using the spotlight to knock him down is also cool, and iirc the human NPCs can also shoot the Bat down, not sure if it's because they shot it in the head or having dealt certain amount of damage, but it happens.
      • Finally, the confrontation with LaCroix himself. Ah, so satisfying. At least the finishing touch were nice. I've gone to No Gods No Master Independent Wahmen that need no man vampire that let LaCroix 'have fun' with the sarcophagus and flip the fingers to Rodriguez, but I was also disappointed we got no ending slides to recount what happened across Los Angeles after our shenanigans.
    4. For other sequence I didn't mention, like Elizabeth Dane and the Museum, they were actually cool. And most of all, what I love about them is how they scratch that Half-Life 2's problem solving itch. I didn't realize I had that itch until I played this game and realize, damn, that's nice. Not even New Vegas have this kind of problem solving, where grabbing objects CAN have actual gameplay purposes. The best of all is probably setting up network for the Nosferatu. I really, REALLY love how it get progressively harder with each sequence. That quest is probably the only saving grace as the game transitioned from midgame to endgame, a calm before the storm, the last spark of brilliance and creativity before we ended up in dark, uninspired dungeons.
    5. Final thoughts, the game used Half-Life 2's engine, right? I'm wondering why Valve didn't want to do this again, i.e outsource the engine to aspiring RPG developers. Ignoring all the bugs and glitches, VTMB proven that the engine is a fine template for future Action-RPGs. Why is there no one modding RPGs with this engine? I meant, Garry's Mod's a thing, right?

    Also, some irrelevant thoughts:

    Show Spoiler
    Having played Gothic right after finishing VTMB for the first time, I noticed a recurring theme between the two games: betrayal. In VTMB, we were betrayed by LaCroix, and he had a Blood Hunt called for our ass. In Gothic, since I joined the Old Camp first, I was betrayed by the whole Camp who prevented me from entering the base and attacked me on sight, only talking when the script allowed it and continued it by attacking me. In both games, we then have a chance to settle the score and have their asses for dinners instead. I'm just saying this, since I can't remember any other RPGs where being betrayed is kinda a huge part of the content, hence why it's irrelevant.


    All in all, I've finally fulfilled the 2/3 part of experiencing Troika's legacy, so now I only have Temple of Elemental Evil left in the backlog. I love the atmosphere of this game, I love the lore and the writing, I love the level and environmental designs of the Final Nights of Los Angeles's World of Darkness, and despite of my discomfort with the character system I highly prefer VTMB's action-RPG gameplay to that of New Vegas. Maybe because the engine is an actually working system for an action-shooter? Even then, character's combat skills still the major influence on the gameplay mechanic, so it's still a huge plus compared to New Vegas's shitty shooting mechanics. Not to mention lockpicking and hacking are 100% handled by the characters instead of shitty minigames :incline:

    Some screenshot:
    Show Spoiler

    [​IMG]
    For some reason the guys at The Confession turned into midgets when I danced around them :lol:
    [​IMG]
    I'm the Queen on the Floor for tonight, baby!
     
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  5. Old One Arcane

    Old One
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    VTMB really lends itself to replays, despite how linear it is. Try a Nosferatu or a Tremere or a Gangrel next time, and you'll be amazed by how much new content there is to see. Malkavian, Nosferatu, and to some extent Tremere are the the most different from the "baseline" experience.

    You won't regret having played Malkavian first, though. I've never seen anyone who did. I played Nosferatu first, and I've never had any regrets about it.
     
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  6. Wesp5 Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Yes, I think Troika took pretty much the whole character screen from the PnP game, only there are many more stats in that, but no feats that play out as a combination of those...

    Once you know how the Ocean House works you can replay it in a few minutes!

    That's indeed the shortcut, but you need to open it from below, as you can already use it to quickly get out of Pisha's room.

    The UP+ plus has a shortcut kind of compressing all these overlong maps into a small one containing the main enemies as well.

    With the UP+ you get shortcuts through all of the three final dungeons directly to the bosses :)!

    Valve licensed the Source engine for several games, but after many of the difficulties during the development of Bloodlines were due to the fact that Valve basically sold Troika an unfinished engine and kept developing it so they had to start over and over again until they decided to stick with a somewhat working alpha, I guess no other RPG developer dared to fall for this too!

    I guess because while the Source engine tools might be fine for linear shooters, everything more complex had to be added by Troika themselves using Python scripts.

    Indeed a great detail that I only noticed while doing the patch: wherever you dance, all the other dancers will group around you! Vampiric influence right there ;)...
     
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  7. D_X Arcane Patron

    D_X
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    Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Black Angel - :salute:

    My first playthrough was also with a Malk. And the second, and the third and my most recent one was also with a malk, yeah you screwed yourself up. :P
    The hotel should be experienced at night, with the lights closed and some headphones, atmosphere is its selling point not the level design. As Wesp said, you can run in and out in a few minutes once you learn the layout.
    Perfectly doable, there are alternative paths.
    What?! I've literally played the game 7 times and never found about this. I was always jumping over the beds and junk in the hall to get out faster.
    Well, if I recall correctly, Gehenna is already on the way when Bloodlines happens and reaches culmination soon after, so, I guess the ending slide is everybody died a horrible death a few months later. :)
     
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  8. Multidirectional Arcane

    Multidirectional
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    Black Angel seems like a lot of your frustrations with combat could be fixed by never going non ranged char again. ;) That's what I always do now. Starting firearms are shit but Blood Buff + unarmed/melee is enough to get you through Santa Monica without even a single point investment. And starting with Glock at Downtown firearms become solid. You only need Unarmed at around 5 max to have a decent chance to feed during combat. I suggest trying Toreador next playthrough and going Max Payne on their asses. Dodging bullets at higher Celerity levels actually looks pretty cool. It's really easy to become really powerful at combat for lategame to become a cakewalk and still have solid diplomatic skills throughout game, with some meta knowledge. I'm pretty sure I enjoyed my second and third playthroughs even more than first one.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2018
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  9. D_X Arcane Patron

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    Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Agreed, Toreador with an arsenal to take over a small country is awesome. Also, you can just spam Presence during combat so you don't really need Unarmed to feed, plus it debuffs everyone around you.
     
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  10. Anomander Rake Self-Ejected

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    Wesp5, is there a way to force the game to always load the textures at maximum definition no matter how far you are?
     
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  11. almondblight Arcane

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    Without meta knowledge it's pretty easy too. I played with a melee Brujah using persuasion, and particularly towards the end nothing put up much of a challenge. It's helps that so many stats seemed useless, so you end up having a ton for the more useful ones..
     
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  12. Wesp5 Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    I don't know, I'm no programer. Drog Black Tooth hacked the binary to remove low poly LODs of model, but I wouldn't know how to do that for all other textures or how the game handles these...
     
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  13. Rahdulan Arcane Patron

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    Black Angel

    You guessed the reason as to why sheet looks the way it does. Feats were just an aggregate for gameplay's sake.

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Okagron Erudite

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    This is what i did in my first playthrough and i honestly had fun. Guess that's why i didn't find the sewers and the endgame dungeons to be terrible.
     
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  15. Multidirectional Arcane

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    It sounds to me like he's talking about Anisotropic Filtering. Though it needs clarification if he's talking about ground textures here.
     
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  16. Black Angel Arcane

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    Damn, that looks sexy! Too bad, I'd assume a sequel would probably implement an improved and expanded version of initially implemented cRPG system. A sequel taking place during the days of Gehenna.... dammit :negative:

    Also, I forgot to add more to what I thought about the ending scene
    Show Spoiler
    I think missed an opportunity to have how much Humanity and how much Masquerade points left to affect the endings. Like, losing Humanity completely or only have 1 left the ending slide will show our character doing real nasty shit to fulfill their bloodthirst, and having 2 or 1 Masquerade point left you'll be hunted down by fellow Kindred, etc etc.
     
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  17. Wesp5 Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    I don't know, I care little about the graphics, although I use SweetFX to get AA. Maybe it can improve texture clearness too?
     
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  18. Wesp5 Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    I believe in the upcoming version of the WoD Gehenna will not have happened as this only was a way to push the nWoD at the time.

    This is already kind of implemented in the normal game. If you break the Masquerade too often the Sheriff will come for you and it's game over. And if your Humanity is low you can join the Sabbat in the UP+ :)!
     
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  19. Multidirectional Arcane

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    Then you've been doing it wrong. Not forcing AF is just uninformed at this point, you should always do that in games that don't provide it themselves. It makes a large difference on far ground textures and costs pretty much nothing performance wise. And only AA you can get from SweetFX is cheap post processing shit that leaves a bunch of shimmering unfixed. Any DX8 games and DX9 games pre-deferred lighting should be able to have MSAA at least, I always go for supersampling too which is a not a big deal even for mid end GPUs 2 generations or more back for these games.
    I've used MSAA+AF for this game since my very first playthrough on Geforce 4200 Ti 128 MB, I'm scared to think of someone playing with anything less even today.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
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  20. Wesp5 Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    I think we had the discussion here before. The main problem is that forcing AA from the GPU affects the console text too and I really need that a lot for the patch ;)!
     
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  21. unfairlight ヽ(✿゚▽゚)ノ Patron

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    What he said. You'll lose next to nothing by having anisotropic in 2018, especially a game as old as that.
     
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  22. Multidirectional Arcane

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    OK, that's a reason not to use AA. But AF is not AA. Have you tried it?
    And I would suggest at least trying to use supersampling without MSAA, see if it causes same problem. If not, combined with that cheap shit from sweetfx it would look really nice as well.
     
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  23. Black Angel Arcane

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    I only actually used exactly Multidirectional's step of forcing graphical fidelity through my GPU setting. Since I have NVIDIA, I used the Inspector application to do the job. The game looks pretty enough, nearly as good as modded New Vegas or maybe even better since it's not in the shitty Gamebryo engine, and it still runs silky 60 fps smooth most of the time.
     
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  24. Multidirectional Arcane

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    Only most of the time? Wow, do you have a really old GPU? I was forcing 2x2 SSAA+4MSAA with perfect 60 since 8800 GTX times I think.. Definitely since GTX 460. Goddamn this fucking game, why am I replaying it so much? It's a crappy unfinished game, right?
     
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  25. Wesp5 Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    I don't know, I'll need to check my NVIDIA settings. Normally I turn AA and AF on in any of the games I play :)!
     
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