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Editorial RPG Codex Editorial: Darth Roxor on the State of RPG Writing

felipepepe

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While I brofisted this I think we should be a bit careful with "what have you shipped?" line of reasoning since eventually someone is going to say that we all should listen to Bethesda because their games sell a fuck ton.
Depends on what you're talking about. If you're making a speech / article on how to sell a fuck ton, then you'll want to have Bethesda, not random indie #38749827 speaking.

If the guy is gonna give tips on indie development & how to be inclusive shouldn't he AT LEAST have a finished game that succeeds at that?

I know a bunch of devs in Brazil THAT ACTUALLY SHIPPED A GAME and have much more interesting things to say than "all these games are sexist / racists" but they won't be on GDC or these other websites because they are not part of the kool kids.
rating_citation.png
I had dinner with a BR dev some time ago (his game sold over 50k on Steam) and he told me he'll never again ship his game as "a Brazilian indie game" because foreign press treats BR devs with kid gloves and BR journos are irrelevant, since most BRs pirate the game. Then you have people like the Momodora dev, who most people assume he's Japanese, and that's likely much better than being HUEHUE.

Certainly sounds more interesting than "here's a guy stuck in dev hell for 5 years, he'll now tell you how racists and sexist all your games are & give dev tips."
 

sser

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Speaking of bad writing, a hack screenwriter at my college who can't even be found using Google and who seems to have won exactly one prize for his screenplays is offering a creative writing class (150 EUR) and a writing workshop (200 EUR). No wonder people can't write; they focus too much on learning to write well. I did that for a long, long time. Read all the advice, followed all the guides. You know what? That's gonna make you a piece of shit writer. Just write your own thing. Emulate whoever you like and find your groove. Don't give a shit about what some external authority considers 'good' - just be true to yourself. Chances are you can't change the amount of your innate talent, but you can refine your storytelling and writing on a mechanical level over time with practice.

If you do that you'll end up with writing head and shoulders above Pillars of Eternity, which seems to have been churned out by a horde of people with bachelor degrees in English who also read all the guides, followed all the workshops and in the process managed to lose all their creativity, individuality and zest.

Yes, I'm saying I can do better. Anyone with a goddamn passionate soul can. Those people have no passion; they're zombies churning out a product. If there's no love in what you do there's no artistic merit whatsoever.

:hmmm:

I should run a writing workshop scam.


I think it is as you say - writing takes practice and you 'study' it by both writing and reading. And reading is just as important as writing. I've never been to a workshop, but I imagine they could be alright for the more organizational aspects of writing -- like how to format a screenplay or structure a plot.

BTW, English was my worst class and I still could not explain to you any of the grammar rules which I use every day. If it's late in the day and I run into a choice of 'lay' or 'lie', I'll just fucking restructure the sentence :lol:
 

Fenix

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I had dinner with a BR dev some time ago (his game sold over 50k on Steam) and he told me he'll never again ship his game as "a Brazilian indie game"
I think he is right, and there is no shame in pretending you are some european\american dude, it is literlly the same as pseudonym in literature.
 

Black

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That's why I like FO1 writing. It's pretty straightforward, to the point, direct. No philosophical debacles about biawacs or any other prosperian nonsense.

Well, he's listed as producer and co-founder... he must do something related to development.
I sometimes watched development of Nuclear Throne on twitch. A single white guy was all that was developing there.
 
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vivec

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Marginally related, but I have to mention a new addition to Darth Roxor's List of RPGs That Use Deep Lore Properly (tm). And the addition is almost hilarious in how unlikely it is.

Legends of Eisenwald.

That's right, this low-key kinda sorta Disciples clone made in some Belorussian shack running on potato can put Obsidian's latest efforts to shame.

The "lore" it gives you, in the form of myths, legends, stories and rumours, is actual folklore, passed among drunken men and gossiping housewives in taverns. The legends have plenty of holes and exaggerations. They are all local, and the few "faraway" places they reference are easy to visualise or put into context because they are real countries or big cities (Eisenwald is quasi-historical and takes place in Germany, basically like Darklands). They can span multiple chapters and give you new info along the way. And, most important of all, all of them are gameplay related - they either tie into the quests you do in some way, or serve as "secret places/quests" that you gotta find and solve yourself to get unique rewards.

Highly commendable!

Aterdux Entertainment
 

Hobo Elf

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Platypus Planet
I was actually asking about actual game titles, you know. Wanted to check them out and all that.
There's a Steam curator just with BR HEUHEUEHEUE titles: http://store.steampowered.com/curator/7182586-Jogos-Brasileiros/?appid=428550

Personally I recommend Momodora, Chrome Squad, Knights of Pen & Paper and Odallus: The Dark Call.

Do you know the guy who made Momodora? Reverie Under the Moonlight was amazing. One of my top picks for 2016.
 

gaussgunner

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While I brofisted this I think we should be a bit careful with "what have you shipped?" line of reasoning since eventually someone is going to say that we all should listen to Bethesda because their games sell a fuck ton.

Not to mention Zoe Quinn, Brianna Wu, .....

Thanks to Steam and Apple and shit, the marketplace is cluttered with "games" that have "shipped". Meanwhile, supply and demand, average sale price approaching zero, no reason to give up good paying work just to start "shipping games".

Don't listen to developers' opinions on games. We don't play that many games because we're all egomaniacs who think we're better than the best. Listen to gamers.
 

Ravel myluv

Learned
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Dec 17, 2013
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This rant is way too long to make its rather simple points, which are mostly broad assumptions anyway, and takes hilarious turns to convey its author's agenda.

I give it 6 applicated transmedia studies credits out of 10.
 

Ravel myluv

Learned
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which are mostly broad assumptions anyway
Like there are exist narrow assumptions?
Like there are laboratory confirmed assumptions about why writing in RPG so shitty today?

I was mostly thiking about his rant about the degree of game scneraists.

The rest of his argumantation could have been more bullet-proof with further examples, and less broad interpretation of the writters' agenda, yes. Some of his points are clear nitpicking, where he doesn't consider the writting as a whole, but picks the few quotes that allow him to spray his hatred.

Like "“The air is humid and dank” is a perfect example of bad writthig according to him. Give me a break...
 
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Lurker King

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Speaking of bad writing, a hack screenwriter at my college who can't even be found using Google and who seems to have won exactly one prize for his screenplays is offering a creative writing class (150 EUR) and a writing workshop (200 EUR). No wonder people can't write; they focus too much on learning to write well. I did that for a long, long time. Read all the advice, followed all the guides. You know what? That's gonna make you a piece of shit writer.

Excerpt from "Clear and Simple as the Truth":

The teaching of writing in America is almost entirely controlled by the view that teaching writing is teaching verbal skills—from the placing of commas to the ordering of paragraphs. This has generated a tremendous industry, but the effect of this teaching is dubious. Why is American prose as bad as it is, even though we have more writing programs than ever?

Our answer is that writing is an intellectual activity, not a bundle of skills. Writing proceeds from thinking. To achieve good prose styles, writers must work through intellectual issues, not merely acquire mechanical techniques. Although it is true that an ordinary intellectual activity like writing must lead to skills, and that skills visibly mark the performance, the activity does not come from the skills, nor does it consist of using them. In this way, writing is like conversation—both are linguistic activities, and so require verbal skills, but neither can be mastered just by learning verbal skills. A bad conversationalist may have a very high level of verbal skills but perform poorly because he does not conceive of conversation as distinct from monologue. No further cultivation of verbal skills will remedy his problem. Conversely, a very good conversationalist may have inferior verbal skills, but a firm grasp on concepts such as reciprocity and turn-taking that lie at the heart of the activity. Neither conversation nor writing can be learned merely by acquiring verbal skills, and any attempt to teach writing by teaching writing skills detached from underlying conceptual issues is doomed.

But it is possible to learn to write by learning a style of writing. We think conceptual stands are the basis of writing since they define styles. To be sure, it is only through the verbal level that the conceptual level can be observed, and verbal artifacts—like plumage—help identify a style. Nevertheless, in general, a style cannot be defined, analyzed, or learned as a matter of verbal choices.

Writing is defined conceptually and leads to skills. This is true of all intellectual activities. There are skills of mathematical discovery, skills of painting, skills of learning a language, and so on. But in no case is the activity constituted by the skills. Great painters are often less skillful than mediocre painters; it is their concept of painting—not their skills—that defines their activity. Similarly, a foreigner may be less skillful than a native speaker at manipulating tenses or using subjunctives, but nonetheless be an incomparably better writer. Intellectual activities generate skills, but skills do not generate intellectual activities.

A style is defined by its conceptual stand on truth, presentation, writer, reader, thought, language, and their relationships.
 

Manzepio

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The idea of lore which doesn't directly impact the hero or his journey in an RPG as "useless" is ridiculous.

The world in a roleplaying game should exist independently from the player, not everything that happens is or should be centered around you
or your personal development, it's what makes the entire setting believable, it will continue to function and have it's own history and dilemmas even
without you there to experience it. It makes me wonder what people actually want from fantasy in the first place and it reminds me of people who never read the Silmarillion because it was all "boring backstory", disregarding what I consider to be Tolkien's most poetic and beautiful work.

"Why should I be doing this mundane thing when I could be doing COOL shit?"

makes me think of

"Why am I taking the ring to Mordor when I could be fighting the ORCS in Minas Tirith?"

Roleplaying games are about creating character stories, not jerking off on power-fantasies.

There are a few tidbits in the article I can agree with , but this aversion to lore and worldbuilding is completely
ass-backwards.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Messages
7,407
The idea of lore which doesn't directly impact the hero or his journey in an RPG as "useless" is ridiculous.

The world in a roleplaying game should exist independently from the player, not everything that happens is or should be centered around you
or your personal development, it's what makes the entire setting believable, it will continue to function and have it's own history and dilemmas even
without you there to experience it. It makes me wonder what people actually want from fantasy in the first place and it reminds me of people who never read the Silmarillion because it was all "boring backstory", disregarding what I consider to be Tolkien's most poetic and beautiful work.

"Why should I be doing this mundane thing when I could be doing COOL shit?"

makes me think of

"Why am I taking the ring to Mordor when I could be fighting the ORCS in Minas Tirith?"

Roleplaying games are about creating character stories, not jerking off on power-fantasies.

There are a few tidbits in the article I can agree with , but this aversion to lore and worldbuilding is completely
ass-backwards.

While I understand your position on the matter, I can't but feel that whenever I read this 'angle' to the debate from someone I almost always immediately think: "Uh-oh, another brainwashed idiot who seems to have forgotten the word 'Game' when they conceptualise an RPG."

Games are not 'worlds', they are things that should indeed be entirely player focused... that's the 'game'.

When you say "It makes me wonder what people actually want from fantasy in the first place" and then go on to use a book as your example instead of a game it exposes even further that the concept of 'playing a game' has completely passed you by.
 
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Lurker King

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Messages
1,865,419
The idea of lore which doesn't directly impact the hero or his journey in an RPG as "useless" is ridiculous.

The world in a roleplaying game should exist independently from the player, not everything that happens is or should be centered around you
or your personal development, it's what makes the entire setting believable, it will continue to function and have it's own history and dilemmas even
without you there to experience it. It makes me wonder what people actually want from fantasy in the first place and it reminds me of people who never read the Silmarillion because it was all "boring backstory", disregarding what I consider to be Tolkien's most poetic and beautiful work.

"Why should I be doing this mundane thing when I could be doing COOL shit?"

makes me think of

"Why am I taking the ring to Mordor when I could be fighting the ORCS in Minas Tirith?"

Roleplaying games are about creating character stories, not jerking off on power-fantasies.

There are a few tidbits in the article I can agree with , but this aversion to lore and worldbuilding is completely
ass-backwards.

Interesting settings doesn’t imply power fantasies and ego stroking, and vice-versa. AoD has a cool setting, but treat you like a nobody. PoE and Shadowrun on the other hand present generic setting, quests and writing, but treat you like the savior of the whole fucking world.
 

Fenix

Arcane
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Russia atchoum!
not everything that happens
The problem is that NOTHING is happened, all these places exist only in words/in rhetoric, and doesn't affect anything.
So it is useless bullshit, about something that you can't interact with in any way.
Cheap fake, falsification.

In Underrail for example is a Dude, who can tell you various bullshit stories, only to find out later that half of them (at least) is true in one or another way, so it is actually useful and intriguing pieces of lore.
That's how it should be done.
 

gaussgunner

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The world in a roleplaying game should exist independently from the player, not everything that happens is or should be centered around you or your personal development, it's what makes the entire setting believable, it will continue to function and have it's own history and dilemmas even without you there to experience it.

It should exist in the writer's mind and notes, not in excruciating detail, just enough to maintain consistency. There's no need to bore the reader/player with details they can infer. Doing so takes away the fun of using their imagination and connecting the dots. This is conventional wisdom and I can't argue with it.

It makes me wonder what people actually want from fantasy in the first place and it reminds me of people who never read the Silmarillion because it was all "boring backstory", disregarding what I consider to be Tolkien's most poetic and beautiful work.

Guilty. It's been a long time since I tried, but I wasn't impressed with Lord of the Rings either. Not a big fan of sequels and sagas.
 

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