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Community RPG Codex GOTY 2019: Results & Cool Graphs

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
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OK, let's follow this argument. In the Top 100 list, out of the isometric RTwP games PoEs rank #9 (if I counted correctly, I have not played everything on the list). #9 within its very specific genre. Again, not a classic.

(also no, PoEs are not "must-play". What would I have missed if I had not played PoE1? Nothing. I will only change my tune if they prove influential -in a positive manner. It is too early for that, but I do not see what they can prove influential about)
Only time can tell what's a true classic, PoE2 didn't even have all DLCs or the turn-based mode when we made the voting. And it still scored very well, much better than PoE1, which I agree is not a must-play.

Still, the point is that we had 3 very well-received infinity engine clones in the past decade, 2 of which can be considered "new classics" according to that big graph. Your main argument is "I arbitrarily decided that a sub-genre cannot have more than X classics". K', I disagree.

YOU decided arbitrarily that PoE2 is a new classic. If you think that my argument is arbitrary, what does that mean for *your* argument? I followed your line of thinking in my answers ffs.
I compared the GOTY votes of the past 7 years and highlighted that PoE 2 is among the most popular & well-rated games. That's not arbitrary, there's a fucking graph with all the data showing where I got that from.
 

The_Mask

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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
I compared the GOTY votes of the past 7 years and highlighted that PoE 2 is among the most popular & well-rated games. That's not arbitrary, there's a fucking graph with all the data showing where I got that from.
Decline is not arbitrary, indeed. It is a constant enemy we fight every second.
 

ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I compared the GOTY votes of the past 7 years and highlighted that PoE 2 is among the most popular & well-rated games. That's not arbitrary.
Game of the Year voting isn't a good metric though. What's arbitrary is this idea that a game doing well on a GotY poll (IK you're comparing bayesian averages and scores received which should in theory be independent of whether or not there were good or bad games released in a year. My point still stands) makes it into a good game or a classic.
 

fantadomat

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OK, let's follow this argument. In the Top 100 list, out of the isometric RTwP games PoEs rank #9 (if I counted correctly, I have not played everything on the list). #9 within its very specific genre. Again, not a classic.

(also no, PoEs are not "must-play". What would I have missed if I had not played PoE1? Nothing. I will only change my tune if they prove influential -in a positive manner. It is too early for that, but I do not see what they can prove influential about)
Only time can tell what's a true classic, PoE2 didn't even have all DLCs or the turn-based mode when we made the voting. And it still scored very well, much better than PoE1, which I agree is not a must-play.

Still, the point is that we had 3 very well-received infinity engine clones in the past decade, 2 of which can be considered "new classics" according to that big graph. Your main argument is "I arbitrarily decided that a sub-genre cannot have more than X classics". K', I disagree.

YOU decided arbitrarily that PoE2 is a new classic. If you think that my argument is arbitrary, what does that mean for *your* argument? I followed your line of thinking in my answers ffs.
I compared the GOTY votes of the past 7 years and highlighted that PoE 2 is among the most popular & well-rated games. That's not arbitrary, there's a fucking graph with all the data showing where I got that from.
I am confused here,the goty went to Kingmaker not Deadfarts. Why are you calling it a classic or even a good game when it is disliked by most people on the codex?
 

Trashos

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I compared the GOTY votes of the past 7 years and highlighted that PoE 2 is among the most popular & well-rated games. That's not arbitrary, there's a fucking graph with all the data showing where I got that from.

OK, I am looking at the 2018 GOTY results. Even within the year of its release, PoE2 is not even in the same ballpark with games like Kingmaker, Kingdom Come or ATOM. I have no idea what you are trying to say now.
 

felipepepe

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No shit, you keep repeating the same thing over and over, as if there will ever be a hivemind that enjoy all RPG equally. 9/10 is lower than 10/10, but that doesn't mean a 9/10 game can't be a great release for people who like that kind of game. PoE 2 is still the #2 best rated IE-clone of the decade, FFS.

Similarly, Grimoire is low on the 2017 GOTY vote, didn't even made Top 10, so it's a shitty blobber? Or maybe it can be low on an overall poll but still be the best of its kind for fans of the genre?

A canon is nothing but a popularity list, that's why I use the Bayesian average on the polls and make graphs - so we can see the hidden gems and stars of each sub-genre.
 

fantadomat

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LoL you are such a obsidianmegafan that you ended up believing that shit lol. Deadfire is a 5/10 best,nobody sane will say that it is 9/10. Also saying that it took second place where there is only two participants in the race,is very very funny buahahaha. For fuck sake,it got 45th place in the top 101 during the year it was released. By the next top101 it most likely will fall off the chart. The game is mediocre at best,and garbage bu popular opinion.
 

V_K

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Trashos

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felipepepe , I am only answering exactly on the claims you are making.

Here is a review of our conversation this far. I am only including your claims that I responded to.

Claim#1: PoE2 is a new classic because it ranked #45 on the Top 100 list.
Answer#1: #45 is too low to make it a classic.
Claim#2: A game can be a classic as a top representative of its specific subgenre.
Answer#2: PoE2 is only the 9th RTwP game on the Top100 list.
Claim#3: PoE2 did very well on the yearly rankings.
Answer#3: Judging by the 2018 GOTY voting results, PoE2 was not even on the first tier of voted games within 2018 (ie, huge difference between the results of the top 2018 games and PoE2's results).

In the meantime, you found the time to call my answer#1 arbitrary (as if your claim#1 was not as arbitrary), and my answer#3 as "repeating myself" (while I simply responded to a specific claim you made). I am going to have to assume that you are having a bad week.

I trust that I do not have to quote the messages of the conversation.

Similarly, Grimoire is low on the 2017 GOTY vote, didn't even made Top 10, so it's a shitty blobber? Or maybe it can be low on an overall poll but still be the best of its kind for fans of the genre?

You are going to say that I am repeating myself again, and this time I truly am, because I have answered this already. See my answer#2 above.

No, it does not mean it is shitty. It means that the poll results do not support such a claim without additional considerations. And those additional considerations are clearly not applicable to Deadfire, which ranks very low as compared to other RTwP games.
 

Lord_Potato

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What's the gripe with AoD now? Genuinely curious.
Same as DE - too much CYOA. Plus unforgiving arbitrary skillchecks that can only be gamed by hoarding skillpoints and savescumming. Its combat is allegedly good though (I'm no combatfag so I wouldn't know).

Really? That's the criticism? Unforgiving skillchecks? Seriously, that's some serious decline if I ever saw one.

Sure, the AoD "teleports" you a bit too much from place to place, creating a feeling of CYOA style game, especially at the beginning, but later fortunately gives you more freedom to explore.

But skillchecks? Don't make me laugh. Btw, you don't need to 'game' the system by hoarding anything. Sometimes you may just fail the skillcheck. Shit happens. A story becomes even more interesting when the PC is not a Mary Sue and sometimes stumbles. Ofcourse, failure may result in some nasty consequences, but such is life. I managed to successfully finish the campaign with a hybrid build (talker with some fighting capabilities, which were useful when I had to fight my way out as a result of a failed check) without having to resort to such methods.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
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felipepepe , I am only answering exactly on the claims you are making.

Here is a review of our conversation this far. I am only including your claims that I responded to.

Claim#1: PoE2 is a new classic because it ranked #45 on the Top 100 list.
Answer#1: #45 is too low to make it a classic.
Claim#2: A game can be a classic as a top representative of its specific subgenre.
Answer#2: PoE2 is only the 9th RTwP game on the Top100 list.
Claim#3: PoE2 did very well on the yearly rankings.
Answer#3: Judging by the 2018 GOTY voting results, PoE2 was not even on the first tier of voted games within 2018 (ie, huge difference between the results of the top 2018 games and PoE2's results).

In the meantime, you found the time to call my answer#1 arbitrary (as if your claim#1 was not as arbitrary), and my answer#3 as "repeating myself" (while I simply responded to a specific claim you made). I am going to have to assume that you are having a bad week.

I trust that I do not have to quote the messages of the conversation.

Similarly, Grimoire is low on the 2017 GOTY vote, didn't even made Top 10, so it's a shitty blobber? Or maybe it can be low on an overall poll but still be the best of its kind for fans of the genre?

You are going to say that I am repeating myself again, and this time I truly am, because I have answered this already. See my answer#2 above.

No, it does not mean it is shitty. It means that the poll results do not support such a claim without additional considerations. And those additional considerations are clearly not applicable to Deadfire, which ranks very low as compared to other RTwP games.
All this passive-agressive rant just to say "I decided that less than 9 RTwP RPGs can be considered classics".

K', I disagree.

And if your defense for your argument is "as if your claim#1 was not as arbitrary", then I'll guess I'll just keep my arbitrary opinion over yours. At least I make cool graphs. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Last edited:

V_K

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What's the gripe with AoD now? Genuinely curious.
Same as DE - too much CYOA. Plus unforgiving arbitrary skillchecks that can only be gamed by hoarding skillpoints and savescumming. Its combat is allegedly good though (I'm no combatfag so I wouldn't know).

Really? That's the criticism? Unforgiving skillchecks? Seriously, that's some serious decline if I ever saw one.

Sure, the AoD "teleports" you a bit too much from place to place, creating a feeling of CYOA style game, especially at the beginning, but later fortunately gives you more freedom to explore.

But skillchecks? Don't make me laugh. Btw, you don't need to 'game' the system by hoarding anything. Sometimes you may just fail the skillcheck. Shit happens. A story becomes even more interesting when the PC is not a Mary Sue and sometimes stumbles. Ofcourse, failure may result in some nasty consequences, but such is life. I managed to successfully finish the campaign with a hybrid build (talker with some fighting capabilities, which were useful when I had to fight my way out as a result of a failed check) without having to resort to such methods.
We've been through this a thousand times. If I fail at something, I want it to be because I fucked up, not because I couldn't predict what arbitrary number the designer pulled out of his ass.
 

Van-d-all

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We've been through this a thousand times. If I fail at something, I want it to be because I fucked up, not because I couldn't predict what arbitrary number the designer pulled out of his ass.
How the fuck do you expect to resolve things like hit chance then? I have a feeling this is going down the aRPG "teh dark soulz" lane...

You do realize it's the character you are playing, not yourself? The fact that you know something doesn't mean your INT 2 character does as well, hence the skill check.
 

Lord_Potato

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What's the gripe with AoD now? Genuinely curious.
Same as DE - too much CYOA. Plus unforgiving arbitrary skillchecks that can only be gamed by hoarding skillpoints and savescumming. Its combat is allegedly good though (I'm no combatfag so I wouldn't know).

Really? That's the criticism? Unforgiving skillchecks? Seriously, that's some serious decline if I ever saw one.

Sure, the AoD "teleports" you a bit too much from place to place, creating a feeling of CYOA style game, especially at the beginning, but later fortunately gives you more freedom to explore.

But skillchecks? Don't make me laugh. Btw, you don't need to 'game' the system by hoarding anything. Sometimes you may just fail the skillcheck. Shit happens. A story becomes even more interesting when the PC is not a Mary Sue and sometimes stumbles. Ofcourse, failure may result in some nasty consequences, but such is life. I managed to successfully finish the campaign with a hybrid build (talker with some fighting capabilities, which were useful when I had to fight my way out as a result of a failed check) without having to resort to such methods.
We've been through this a thousand times. If I fail at something, I want it to be because I fucked up, not because I couldn't predict what arbitrary number the designer pulled out of his ass.

You must have loved the skillchecks in the Outer Worlds. It's almost impossible to fail those.
 

V_K

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How the fuck do you expect to resolve things like hit chance then?
With a hit chance you can:
- drink a potion or cast a spell to increase your hit chance;
- choose a cautious attack, sacrificing damage for better to-hit chance;
- just bite it and keep attacking while mitigating incoming damage (through health potions or CC), waiting for enough attacks to connect;
- flee and return later;
- prepare for the encounter by equipping items and buffs that will give you advantage for that particular enemy.

With a dialog check all you can do is fail an reload (unless it's a repeatable check, but that's not AoD's case).
Now there are games that allow you to game dialog checks with preparation and resource management (The Council probably being the best example), but AoD isn't one of them.
 

Van-d-all

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How the fuck do you expect to resolve things like hit chance then?
With a hit chance you can:
- drink a potion or cast a spell to increase your hit chance;
- choose a cautious attack, sacrificing damage for better to-hit chance;
- just bite it and keep attacking while mitigating incoming damage (through health potions or CC), waiting for enough attacks to connect;
- flee and return later;
- prepare for the encounter by equipping items and buffs that will give you advantage for that particular enemy.

With a dialog check all you can do is fail an reload (unless it's a repeatable check, but that's not AoD's case).
Now there are games that allow you to game dialog checks with preparation and resource management (The Council probably being the best example), but AoD isn't one of them.
Bullshit. Majority of games have different dialogue check difficulties depending on the choices you made. Disco among them ads shitloads of stacking circumstantial modifiers. Prebuffs apply to dialogue checks as well.
 

Daidre

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Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
Why are you so butthurt about people not liking the game you did?
Imho, felipepepe cares more about his collected over the years data, creative math and cool colored graph (no sarcasm) with an interesting pattern than about Deadfire an its place in particular.

For me Deadfire is like 6.5-8 (correlates with graph) game depending on tastes. As my tastes go - it sucks and anyone who puts in in the same sentence with "worthy Baldur's Gate successor" deserves some pain.
 

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