Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Codex Interview RPG Codex Interview: Eric Fenstermaker on Pillars of Eternity​

agris

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
6,810
Is PST the perfect example? I guess not if you think that the game is "across the board better" with a specific build, but I don't mean just high INT/WIS. I mean the entire, holistic experience such as how your choices (combat vs diplomatic resolutions, character development, class selection) can lead to an experience that is, yes, superior to another person's. I am literally saying that some people should experience a worse game than others. The point is that that worse game should still be enjoyable, but it's necessary. Because without a worse version of a game, how do you have a better one? And if a game doesn't support such dynamic range, then you have something in which your choices don't matter.

It seems like you're dissembling. If you see the point I'm making, then reflect it. If you don't, ask me about it. Otherwise the embracing of even-handedness, of balance, is just enabling mediocrity.
 
Last edited:

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,437
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Is PST the perfect example? I guess not if you think that the game is "across the board better" with a specific built, but I don't mean just high INT/WIS. I mean the entire, holistic experience such has how your choices (combat vs diplomatic resolutions, character development, class selection) can lead to an experience that is, yes, superior to another person's. I am literally saying that some people should experience a worse game than others. The point is that that worse game should still be enjoyable, but it's necessary. Because without a worse version of a game, how do you have a better one? And if a game doesn't support such dynamic range, then you have something in which your choices don't matter.

It seems like you're dissembling. If you see the point I'm making, then reflect it. If you don't, ask me about it. Otherwise the embracing of even-handedness, of balance, is just enabling mediocrity.

Well, you're not going to get what you're asking for - options that make the experience "superior". That's just not going to happen.

I think an Obsidian that's flush with cash could offer an unbalanced amount of reactivity to a Godlike character, but it wouldn't be framed in such a way that makes the gameplay experience "superior" - the Godlike character would experience both positive and negative reactions.
 

agris

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
6,810
Infinitron I'm using subjective words on purpose here. You're right, I think they should have used an imbalanced amount of reactivity towards Godlikes because of how they are framed in the lore. And yes, if a player plays a Godlike character, they suffer both the positives and negatives from the game world. Superior doesn't have to mean that you've peaked in terms of quests completed, content explored, items found or power level. It can mean you've sucked the marrow from the bones of the game, seen all the custom-scripted interactions, seen all the non-vanilla interactions and suffered or benefited from them.

A game that makes my playthrough harder because of the choices I've made is a game that I want to play. One that sets up a race as disadvantaged and makes my playthrough like that of any other human, functionally (not flavor text), is not doing itself or the player any good.

edit:
Well, you're not going to get what you're asking for - options that make the experience "superior". That's just not going to happen.

But that's exactly what I'm saying, those older games we revere around here did exactly that. Maybe it wasn't superior across the board, maybe it was superior experience of custom-scripted content. Maybe it was superior access to short-swords, or superior skill point awards or superior quests offered. But they were real options that others didn't have access to. You can't achieve that without cutting some people out, making them have an inferior experience in whatever context we're talking about.

edit2:
Infinitron said:
You're saying that for choices to have an impact there have to be ones that give you an experience that's better across the board, start-to-finish? I know that can't be right.
You know that can't be right because I'm not saying it, but it is a distraction to the central theme of dynamic range in gameplay experience that I originally brought up.
 
Last edited:

Trashos

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3,413
I kind of agree with Agris here.

Maybe BG2 is a good example for when we can't have 15 deep companions. Some of the companions in BG2 got better treatment, but at the end of the day we got both some companions with a lot of interaction (for BG2 standards), and enough companions to have plenty of strategic choices for the roster of our group (which is important for a combat heavy game).

PoE chose a lower number of companions, and tried to fulfil our strategic needs with completely blank hireable "adventurers". Maybe this worked for some people, but for me it doesn't work as well. I 'd take Valygar and Cernd over blank adventurers any day. At least I know what Valygar stands for.
 

dukeofwhales

Cipher
Joined
Nov 13, 2013
Messages
423
People associate entropy with cold because extreme cold makes people slower and more sluggish. It freezes things, bringing movement to a halt - a layman's interpretation of what "entropy" means. Doing the opposite would be too weird even for professional trope-subverters, although maybe for the sequel they can create a heretical/heterodox Rymrgand worshipper who likes heat. :M

Quite the contrary, entropy is the exact opposite of slow and sluggish. Where is that trope coming from? Some goddamn holywood movie, I take it?
I thought that heathens (ie, non-physicists) associated entropy with chaos, which is conceptually correct and more akin to quick and random movement.

Perhaps Infinitron is confusing entropy with inertia?
 

Prime Junta

Guest
That's my point though, how do you have a better version of the game without a worse version? "Eliminate the worse version and give everyone the better version!" you might reasonably be expected to say. Well then your choices don't mean anything. That's the point of dynamic range. Of choice. For choice to have an actual impact, and not just result in same-ness. Create worst to best option scenarios, so that players know that their choices have an impact. But make it so that the worst-case scenario is still enjoyable. That's what I was trying to say with the PST reference.

Trouble is, worst-case PS:T just isn't. Enjoyable I mean. I know because the first time I played it I went in blind and decided to roll with a rogue. It was just frustrating and not fun.

Whatever your intentions, you will always end up with some choices worse than others. Pillars tries to make its character system as balanced as humanly possible, yet the difference between a power build and just plain-old-moderately-competent build is massive. Go with a party of adventurers and if you know what you're doing, you will steamroll the game from start to finish.

If you explicitly set out to favour some choices over others, that will not help. It'll just result you in putting development effort into things that nobody in their right mind will pick, and that's always effort that could've been spent on things people will do.
 

Fairfax

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
3,518
Very long thread, which I'll read later, but I'm curious: did Fenstermaker say anything about the political allegories, and/or the main antagonist being a conservative goddess who literally kills babies?
 
Last edited:

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,437
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Fenstermaker's Folly posts in the Obsidian forums, where some people have been upset over his preference for a shorter RPG: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/84987-eric-fenstermaker-narrative-interview-at-rpg-codex/?p=1789432

To clarify the long vs. short game statement, I wasn't suggesting making an 8-hr full-priced RPG. It's more an overarching approach: if you have x dollars to make a game, do you spend 80% of it on content and 20% on polish, or 60% on content and 40% on polish? If you are given a choice between putting in some of your more mediocre work into the game to add to gameplay time, or cutting it in service of overall quality, which way do you go? Choosing the latter in both cases sounds appealing from the standpoint of having a desire to make high quality games, but it would cost you a big chunk of your gameplay time, so it's not a simple choice. A 60-hour game could become a 40-hour game.

While I fully believe that there is such a thing as too short for a game, I also think there's room there to go in and at least find out, will a 40-hour, highly polished RPG be long enough to satisfy most fans, or does it have to be 60 or 80 hours? (Assuming the same price point across the board, because we're assuming the same budget for either scenario - if you drop price, you also drop profit projections (if we also make the assumption that the original price point maximized revenue) and would consequently have to spend less on budget.) I do not know the answer to that question, but I would be interested to find out.
 

grotsnik

Arcane
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Messages
1,671
And if a game doesn't support such dynamic range, then you have something in which your choices don't matter.

If you explicitly set out to favour some choices over others, that will not help. It'll just result you in putting development effort into things that nobody in their right mind will pick, and that's always effort that could've been spent on things people will do.

This is really interesting, because from a player perspective, I think agris is totally right. I love that notion of 'dynamic range'. There's an unsurpassable sense of character ownership when your wizard heads to the Council of Wizards and actually gets some credit for being a wizard - and the same goes for when your filthy rogue is kicked summarily out of the front gates. That's the stuff players talk about for years to come ('time for my rogue playthrough, I'm going to massacre those stuck-up bastards once I get to them').

And developers shouldn't necessarily feel that this means they need to create a bunch of analogous content for the Council of Druids, the Council of Barbarians, the Council of Half-Elf Dual-Classers, because that way madness lies.* Not just because it's a massive, near-infinite amount of work, but because you're likely to run out of imagination by the fourth faction and the whole thing has the potential to end up feeling stretched-out, meaningless and flat. ('I got my ticket to the Duke's ball from the Council of Druids.' 'Great. I got mine from the Council of Shamans.')

But equally, I don't think these things can come about because a project leader consciously makes a plan like, 'OK, while the rest of you are working long hours getting the main storyline complete before deadline, Dave here is going to be writing unique godlike content for, like, 5% of players. Just a shitton of godlike content. And it'll all need C&C. That's what we're paying Dave for.'

Nor should they, obviously - because that's terrible planning and practice. You just can't legislate for that stuff while you're devoting all of your resources towards building out a base player experience.

Instead, they usually seem to happen in a looser phase of development, if and when resources are spare, and one devoted individual is inspired or crazy enough to say, 'Hey, wouldn't it be cool if I...?' and then take the majority of the burden on their own shoulders.

The Malkavian dialogue, for example, was mostly banged out by a sleep-deprived Brian Mitsoda after everything else. He's pointed out himself that actually, it wasn't that much work, because for the most part the other characters don't react to the Malkavian PC, and the script structure doesn't change. So a lot of it was just a matter of going through the dialogue swapping out normal answers for crazy answers.

Likewise, I've always thought Mask of the Betrayer was a really smart example of a game whose developers knew what to devote time to, and what to drop. As Kevin says in the interview, they stopped wasting development time with complicated (and ugly) NWN2 cutscenes, and just poured the writing into the NWN1-style dialogue box instead. They avoided massive, sprawling quests, to keep the writers focused. And as a result, the entire team had enough time left over to create a whole new, fully-fledged quest-zone - Ashenwood. Which is awesome.

But even then, they were still close to cutting one companion entirely (Kaelyn), and it took Chris Avellone swooping in to the project from elsewhere like the US cavalry and saying, 'If I make the time to write her, can we keep her?'.

So with a game like PoE, where we now know that writing resources were extremely tight (only one revision? Jesus), are we honestly saying that we'd prefer the writers and scripters required to have built out the godlike content, if they'd had an extra month or two? Rather than, for example, improving the main storyline, building out the factions, adding more content to Twin Elms, or writing better content for the stronghold? It's a tough call.



*Well, or AoD. But I'm talking in generalities.
 
Unwanted

Irenaeus III

Unwanted
Shitposter
Joined
Jan 10, 2016
Messages
990
Good post. That's why I appreciate the effort done in PoE so much. What a great game.
 

MrE

Literate
Joined
Jan 21, 2016
Messages
34
Fenstermaker's Folly posts in the Obsidian forums, where some people have been upset over his preference for a shorter RPG: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/84987-eric-fenstermaker-narrative-interview-at-rpg-codex/?p=1789432

The strive for quality over quantity is commendable but what happened that changed the nature of game-making so profoundly? Gone are the days of games that took months while being great. Is it the new technologies limiting game design? One would expect development resulting in improvement so probably not. The market then? Progressing retardation of society as a whole and thus players too (if not more)? That very well might be. Even mindless shooters used to be so much longer (and more fun, I mean just compare the original DOOM and that shit Bethesda is about to put out).
I personally really enjoy (or rather enjoyed) long games, the games of today often feel too short. I remember seeing a suggestion somewhere online that some players might want to split their Deus Ex playthrough in two in order to avoid being bored/burnt out and I was like WTF. I really wish developers had more time to polish AND create new content but then again, that requires more money too unfortunately and that's where things get tricky. So overall, yes, cut and polish but ideally -> find a third way to get more time+money to spend on production.
 

zeitgeist

Magister
Joined
Aug 12, 2010
Messages
1,444
A weird quote.
You had to know what a bîaŵac was before it struck. You had to know what adra was. You had to know what a Watcher was very shortly after becoming one. You had to know who Glanfathans were and why they would be mad at you for being in their ruins. You had to learn about animancers and the Saint's War and a slew of other things that led to the world being in the state it was in.

I finished the game not long after it was released, and I don't remember one single term from this post. How is it that I remember practically every login and keypad code from Deus Ex, so many units from Colonization, locations of hidden sietches from Dune, and Monkey Island insults, yet all I can recall from PoE is the existence of some kind of a comically sweaty dwarf (in all probability only because it was someone's Codex avatar)?
 

Mygaffer

Novice
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
8
Wow. Who fucking cares? That is some hobgoblin of little minds shit. Letting VO economics sabotage anything in a kickstarter IE throwback is ridiculous.

I understand both sides in this argument but yes, I would prefer to forget about the amount of VO and goes with what works for the characters and narrative.
 

Mygaffer

Novice
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
8
I finished the game not long after it was released, and I don't remember one single term from this post. How is it that I remember practically every login and keypad code from Deus Ex, so many units from Colonization, locations of hidden sietches from Dune, and Monkey Island insults, yet all I can recall from PoE is the existence of some kind of a comically sweaty dwarf (in all probability only because it was someone's Codex avatar)?

If you can't remember one of those terms I imagine you didn't read much of the dialogue, or any of the ingame books.
 

Bastion

Educated
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
52
^ What for? Listening to the voice actors was a way too much for him anyway.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom