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Codex Preview RPG Codex Preview: No Truce With The Furies

Discussion in 'RPG Codex News & Content Comments' started by Infinitron, Mar 3, 2017.

  1. Zombra Arcane Patron

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    Meh. A game, or whatever you want to call it, doesn't need to have a "you died" screen in order to be fun. I will be perfectly content if this is a brilliant, provocative artwork with many possible outcomes; I honestly don't care whether it has fail state roadblocks or not. I know some people are only content if they have to struggle to "beat" a game by "winning" instead of "losing" ... but again, I think that mentality is very much missing the point here.

    If you don't get the basic premise that failure can be fun ... you are lame and need to broaden your horizons.

    Let me give you an example from a P&P campaign I'm in. We rarely roll dice unless the GM can make the stakes interesting. Say my character wants to sneak past some guards to talk to a prisoner, so I make a stealth roll. If I succeed, I get to the prisoner and find out plot information. If I fail, he doesn't just say, they kill you, game over. Instead I get captured and that leads to a whole jailbreak sequence. This is a million times better than "Well, roll the dice again until you succeed" (the equivalent of save scumming). Obviously, winning is fun and I want to succeed at the roll, but if I fail it's still a cool story. If you want to call that an "interactive novel", fine, but it's not, it's still a game. It just has Interesting Story 1 and Interesting Story 2 as possible results instead of Game Continues and Game Over.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
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  2. ESh Arcane

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    You've misunderstood me, I should've been more clear. The developers wants to use Dice Roll Checks rather Threshold Checks solely because it encourages the player to pick low-chance (active) options just in case they get lucky (a chance the wouldn't have with Thresholds) - but this is contradictory, because by using Success outcomes as a carrot, they speak against their own message ("Failure is Fun"). It's simply my counterpoint to their initial reason for using Dice Roll Checks.
     
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  3. ArchAngel Arcane

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    See there are different kind of failure.
    #1 There is the kind jerk DMs and AoD use:
    Player: I want to do X.
    DM: Roll Y.
    Player: Gets a low roll.
    DM: Rocks fall and you die.
    Player: ....fuck you DM!

    #2 There is kind smart DMs and good games use:
    Player: I want to do X.
    DM: Roll Y.
    Player: Gets a low roll.
    DM: Doing X will be much harder now. You can continue doing X or you can try A or B.
    Player: I still want to do X, I don't care how stupid or hard it is now.
    DM: Roll Z.
    Player: Gets a bad roll again.
    DM: Because it was much harder now and you still insisted on following this path rocks fall and you die
    Player: ...well I was warned.

    No Truce with Furies sounds like #2. I prefer #2.
     
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  4. KILLER BEAR Educated

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    Kentucky Route Zero is so abstract that makes no sense whatsoever.
     
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  5. Lurker King Self-Ejected The Real Fanboy

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    In other words, you should try to surpass challenges, but you can't fail. Sounds like a bad game to me.

    You are confusing artistic pretensions and appreciation with games. You can't just make a game and say it doesn't have some core features because it's an interesting piece of art. That's idiocy.

    Nah, I think I will mantain my horizons reduced, thank you. I get that additional game content can be fun, sure. Even AoD, that is regarded as masochist hell by some players here, have many fail-and-go scenarios. That's not the point. The question is whether there is no challenge involved and nothing to lose considering the game as a whole.
     
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  6. Pentagon Educated

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    Day-one purchase it is then.
     
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  7. Zombra Arcane Patron

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    Forgive me, but I think I understood you the first time.

    The low-chance gamble is definitely a valid reason to attempt something with an uncertain result. The difference here is that it's OK to not hit the jackpot with a success. Instead of making you just reload the game until you succeed, failures are given a different reward - a cool failure story. It makes you want to continue playing even though you failed. This is serious incline. Of course if you do succeed, that's fun too just like always. In my previous post I briefly sketched a success story and a failure story. Having a fun failure story doesn't detract from the fun of hitting the success story; if anything, it enhances it because it takes away the infallible success of the save-scumming mentality that win/lose enforces. "Succeed or reload" is boring - "succeed or fail and live with it either way" is fascinating, and makes success more meaningful.

    You don't seem to understand the difference between failing and losing. It's a big deal. Figure it out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all. But I deny that a Game Over screen is a "core feature" of gaming.

    No one ever said there's nothing to lose. Your character might end up a hobo. Maybe you'll finish with Ending D when you were trying for Ending B. I'm sure many Codexers will be outraged that their character didn't end up "racist enough". There is plenty of interest to be gained and lost without "YOU DIED LOAD LAST CHECKPOINT" being necessary.

    Disappointing, dude. :decline:
     
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  8. KILLER BEAR Educated

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    On the topic of games without fail state: It would be interesting if someone made a game where you gain control over multiple characters, and depending on your actions each one can live or die, making the narrative change accordingly. Something like Until Dawn but with actual mechanics instead of QTEs.

    Lurker King would you consider that a "proper" game?
     
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  9. Joined on the 4th of July Arcane

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    Yeah, p. cool to have some doing the right decision consciously, and not just fumbling into it due to budgetary reasons (like in Infinity engine gaems for example)
     
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  10. cherry blossom Arcane

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    This game speaks so much to me. I love games like Underrail with no shortage of tedium and a degree of sandbox mechanics, but I am also having decreasingly less time to invest in tedium any more. Tighter games with far less / no tedium while not afraid to explore and experiment with narrative and mechanics is something I crave so badly.

    One concern I have is, if PC's environmental observation is passively based on skills, then won't the very act of gathering evidence/observations a railroaded process where you just click/"loot" everything, regardless of how that metaphorical loot is then interpreted by skills and used by the Player? It sounds to me like the very act of interacting with the environment via passive ovbservations negates a large degree of player's agency in figuring out what to "loot" once a preliminary observation is made?

    In other words, what motivation could a player have in whether to "loot" (eg. make an observation on environmental points of interest, gather data) or not at all, as opposed to "loot it all" since whether something will turn up depends on the PC's skills in filtering that loot?

    I am not certain if that was clear enough.
     
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  11. cherry blossom Arcane

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    On the other hand, that the game prompts all this talk over game mechanics outside of a traditional tedium, already puts it well ahead of pretty much anything else out there, right now.
     
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  12. Irenaeus Self-Ejected Patron Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual The Real Fanboy

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    Someone give me the tl;dr

    Is this a game for communist nigger-loving cucks? I just read the first page.
     
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  13. Zombra Arcane Patron

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    It's a game for politically extreme assholes from all over the spectrum. You can build up your Fascism stat through dialogue, no joke.
     
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  14. sstacks Arcane

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    "Cops are naturally fascist."

    Say huh?!?
     
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  15. sstacks Arcane

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    Why would asking black people about what music they listen to build up fascism? You can only be racist in the political spectrum as a fascist? I know it's an indy game trying a cool new mechanic with limited resources... but still. This sounds like pretty clumsy social conditioning.
     
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  16. Kem0sabe Arcane

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    It sounds like opinions formed by people who have never experienced racism, live in a 99.999% white country, probably middle class parents who funded their college education, and now started up a development studio resorting to some kind of EU subsidies while telling themselves they are going to make a difference.

    The unwashed gypsies living behind my apartment have more authenticity than this...
     
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  17. huskarls Educated

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    Gameplay! Gameplay! Gameplay! Games aren't books or movies, they are games. Gameplay is the cake, dialogue skill checks and denying holodomor is icing. I don't know how you can have a game preview without showing or discussing any gameplay
     
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  18. sstacks Arcane

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    It does sound a bit like the kid who goes of to college and after one semester comes home on break telling everyone how the world really works.

    The game itself sounds cool and I give them points for trying, however it also sounds a bit heavy handed and naive.
     
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  19. Think big! Smoking Dicks

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    He either didn't needle enough or wasn't listened to.
     
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  20. hello friend Arcane

    hello friend
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    I'm on an actual spaceship. No joke.
    I've always wondered, do islanders eat the same kinds of food as people? Do you have bread in the azores?
     
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  21. Turok Erudite

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    Every time i read the tittle i see no truce with the furries, and thats because all the furries and tranies shit photos i have see in this forum by accident. (same happens with Tyranny, tranny)
     
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  22. ESh Arcane

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    Dude, I'm since long ago sold on ZA/UN's decision to make cool failure stories, you don't have to convince me on that point :D

    The thing is, everything in the last paragraph you wrote stays the same with Treshold checks. If your skill is high enough, you will succeed, if it's too low, you'll get the cool failure story. Just the same as Dice Roll Checks.
    The difference is, and I should've made it clear that this is the main point, with Dice Roll Checks there'll be scenarios where you either clear a low-chance check, or fail a high-chance check, and get a different result than you'd have gotten with Tresholds.
    The bad thing with this, and despite the fact that No Truce doesn't write outcomes as inherently Good/Bad, is that the result is unrepresentative of the player's skills, such as clearing a high Drama check despite not putting any points into it, or failing a low Drama check despite having a lot of points in it. It's bad, storytelling-wise, and to repeat what I wrote before: with each of the skills in No Truce being so uniquely characteristic, almost like personality traits, it would be like the core identity of the protagonist is compromised and overwritten.

    Thresholds don't have this problem. Whether success or failure, the outcome always represent your character's actual stats.
     
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  23. Kasparov ZA/UM Developer

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    It doesn't quite work like that. These checks also come with varying difficulty. When your skill is high enough - you're more than likely to pass it. That adds that extra bit of tension you might get from tactical turn based combat where you have mapped out all your actions and hit "COMPUTE!"

    Someone mentioned AoD and my name in the same sentence - my problem with AoD's approach to use plain thresholds is that you can't get lucky. Or unlucky, for that matter.

    If thresholds are so good, why didn't they use thresholds in combat as well? Dungeon Rats would be even more dull if all the hits and misses depended on a fixed number. Even though it would be representative of the player's skills.
     
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  24. ESh Arcane

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    I'll quote old post on this:
    While the case can be made that the underlying calculations themself are representative of your character's attributes, it would be irrelevant if the outcomes aren't; imagine schooling Dak'kon on his own philosphy with merely 9 Wisdom, or with 20 Charisma being unable to ask "Have you forgotten the face of your father, Trias?"

    A Threshold check with hidden requirement would also generate tension - more thension, because the player would be unaware of their actual chances.

    That's the point! The choices you made in character creation resulted in consequences (or rewards). The outcome of the player's interactions actually depended on their skills and not luck, this is simply good design.
     
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  25. Kasparov ZA/UM Developer

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    Agree to disagree, yo.

    I feel like my Shortsword +3 is just sliding off your Wall Shield +5 and orher buffs. I'll flee and come back when I've leveled up or perhaps I've managed to recruit the legendary mindflayer necromancer Marat Sar to even out the odds
     
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