Interview RPG Codex Retrospective Interview: Tim Cain on Fallout, Troika and RPG Design

[Black]

The sequel was based loosely on Jules Verne's A Journey to the Center of the Earth, where we planned to continue the adventures of the great explorer Franklin Payne. He has disappeared into the bowels of the earth, and his wife has hired you to find him. We had laid out most the storyline, and it included finding prehistoric monsters, subterranean humanoids, and most thrilling of all, a clue about how magic and tech can be reconciled in the same artifact, something that most learned people had believed to be impossible. Of course, none of this came to be, but our talks about using the Source engine led to our making Vampire: Bloodlines.

 

[ironyuri]

The sequel was based loosely on Jules Verne's A Journey to the Center of the Earth, where we planned to continue the adventures of the great explorer Franklin Payne. He has disappeared into the bowels of the earth, and his wife has hired you to find him. We had laid out most the storyline, and it included finding prehistoric monsters, subterranean humanoids, and most thrilling of all, a clue about how magic and tech can be reconciled in the same artifact, something that most learned people had believed to be impossible. Of course, none of this came to be, but our talks about using the Source engine led to our making Vampire: Bloodlines.

 

[visions]

Yeah, the newspapers were really cool.

I am disappointed but somehow not surprised at not seeing a Half-Ogre Island/Gnomes=Jews question there.

 

[ironyuri]

Just to expand on what I said on the previous page and as an actual, serious response to Roguey's idiotic comments:

Narrative and mechanics/gameplay are not in a mutually exclusive, dichotomous relationship in games. The newspapers in Arcanum were a a narrative mechanic by which feedback on the player's actions could be communicated to the player at an additional level, rather than simply, being able to see an enemy gibbed on screen, or have a "QUEST COMPLETE" popup appear above the PC's head when he handed in a quest to a quest-giver. Their function in gameplay feedback terms was twofold: to reinforce that the PC, and therefore, the player, had an impact on the game-world, and secondly, they sometimes provided additional story information that could not otherwise be communicated (ie: they translated the actions of the player into a textual story form, which gave structure to the actions of the player and placed those actions within the totality of the game's narrative structure) through other forms of feedback.

The Arcanum newspaper system, which, while it may seem insignifcant to some, was infact a core element of Arcanum's gameplay in that it formed one part of a whole in the sphere of game->player feedback. The other elements of narrative feedback were NPCs, who would, post-facto, comment on your actions. The immediate feedback of dice rolls in the turn-based combat, and ultimately, the post-endgame screens.

Call it "cosmetic C&C" all you want, but you'll still be wrong. Alpha Protocol was exactly the same, it might appear to be cosmetic C&C, but however you want to see it, it is narrative as a function of gameplay.

The inverse of this would be gameplay as a function of narrative, which are exemplified by vehicle sections in specific locations in games, contextual mini-games or quick-time events, and other such occurences where a new or previously telegraphed mechanic of player interaction with the narrative is introduced to the player, whereby he has to advance the storyline.

But you know, keep believing "core gameplay" and feedback for the player, or elements of narrative are two separate entities. That way we'll keep getting games like Fallout 3 and you'll keep sucking dicks.

Ps. This isn't to mention that some of the newspapers you found in-game, such as the one in Blackwater? Rosewater? Where's that town? Explained the political situation with Tarant and had nothing to do directly with the player, unless he was taking the persuasion master quest and needed lore info. So the newspapers also provided the function of a lore codex, but I won't digress too far into that.

Pps. Small mechanic, game-wide impact. But obviously it could be stripped out because player feedback is totally inessential. Thank fuck for games like Oblivion where the gameplay does the talking.

 

[Harpsichord]

For example, Arcanum had newspapers that reported on major incidents that were caused by the player, but I don't remember a single review mentioning that. We spent a lot of time getting that working, and those hours could have spent balancing real-time combat, or fixing the multiplayer code.

I RANTED AND RAVED over the newspaper thing to people that I knew. That was *exactly* the sort of window dressing that made Arcanum such a memorable experience in my opinion.

There are really no two ways around it, if *all* of the features like that had been stripped, it would have lost a lot of charm. Which makes it sad to hear that is the first stuff that would get cut, and that he doesn't feel that those features could be reasonably implemented while still maintaining appropriate levels of quality elsewhere.

 

[ironyuri]

For example, Arcanum had newspapers that reported on major incidents that were caused by the player, but I don't remember a single review mentioning that. We spent a lot of time getting that working, and those hours could have spent balancing real-time combat, or fixing the multiplayer code.

I RANTED AND RAVED over the newspaper thing to people that I knew. That was *exactly* the sort of window dressing that made Arcanum such a memorable experience in my opinion.

There are really no two ways around it, if *all* of the features like that had been stripped, it would have lost a lot of charm. Which makes it sad to hear that is the first stuff that would get cut, and that he doesn't feel that those features could be reasonably implemented while still maintaining appropriate levels of quality elsewhere.

Herr Fraulein Kaiserin, you must remember that Cain is probably talking about implementing said features within the AAA vs Small Team development structure imposed by the contemporary industry.

If he had 3 years, a sizeable coherent team and artistic control, he could probably do both.

 

[BlackCanopus]

I think the newspapers were one of the most memorable features of Arcanum. I still talk with my friends about Arcanum, and one the first things I boast about is how my actions, even running, naked, up and down a street in Tarrant, would be reflected in a newspaper the next day. That's one of the features that made Arcanum sounique and that's why Arcanum is the best RPG I have ever played. I'm sure I'd still prefer an Arcanum with newspapers, to an Arcanum without newspapers but with improved combat. And if by any chance Tim Cain happens to read this, I want him to know that at least one person in the world still dreams of playing a game with a similar feature. I hope you'll find a subtle satisfaction in knowing that perhaps your innovative ideas and the time you spent on implementing them were not completely wasted.

 

[Kz3r0]

The newspapers were integral part of the gameplay too, by reading one and having it in the inventory was possible to solve a quest without doing the usual errand, get a clue about where was possible to find Virgil after he left the party and get essential informations for other quests, obviously if everyone played using a walk-through or autistically exploring everything without having a clue those things could have been overlooked.

 

[kaizoku]

We should send the guy a newspaper-styled postcard that says "We cared!".
I know I did too. It's the little things, the details, that make something good great; they are evidence of the love put into the product, flawed as it may otherwise be or not be.

CODEX FUNDRAISER!

Because Tim is such a bro, I propose we start a codex fundraiser ($100 or $200) to buy a steampunk related gift for Tim.

I also just had the most awesome idea (to be coupled with this gift). But I'm not sure if I should post it here or PM Miss Bee... because I suspect Tim may be reading this.

 

[Fens]

also: i hope the arrests for pecuniamagically derailing good things will happen one day

 

[FeelTheRads]

I'm in for a fund raiser!

 

[Phelot]

My political question made it in! Thanks Crooked Bee!

I still want to hear an official answer to the Siamese Twins case in Arcanum. THAT would be juicy.

EDIT:

Looking back, I am amazed our games were as feature-rich as they were, but I am not surprised they were as buggy as they were. We should have made some serious feature cuts early in their development.

I get his point, but I would like to state that I normally don't mind bugs, even game breaking bugs so long as the game can at least progress enough to get a feel for whether the game is worth the time or not. What I mean to say is, a CTD on start up or when saving may be intolerable. I recall Morrowind at launch had a nasty CTD sometimes when saving. It was a pain, but wasn't enough to stop me from playing. I always figure that patches will be released, especially in this online age so I'm always saddened to hear that a feature was cut because it introduced too many bugs.

 

[Jasede]

 

[tuluse]

Todd smells? I already knew that.

 

[grotsnik]

At last, the efforts of our staff to put together this Retrospective series have been recognised by the professional gaming press; no less a publication than PC Gamer has graciously given this in-depth interview its blessing. By which I mean it's copy-pasted all the bits of Tim's replies that mentioned Fallout 3 and posted them as a news story while ignoring everything else. Huzzah!

even running, naked, up and down a street in Tarrant, would be reflected in a newspaper the next day.

Wait...really? Do you have to run through a certain trigger somewhere?

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I actually found the newspapers to be quite neat.

Also, I told you guys that he really liked Fallout 3.

 

[Mother Russia]

I am concerned about the mid-tier developer being crowded out of the market by these new methods. It seems that we are increasingly seeing two types of games, ones made by small independent developers and ones made by huge, publisher-owned teams. The mid-tier developer, which have teams of 30-60 people, are shrinking, and small teams of less than 10 people and large teams of over 100 people are becoming the norm. I am worried what this means for the types of games that will be available over the next few years. Will they be either small casual games that you play for a few hours and then move on, or gigantic behemoths that you devote months of gaming time to, possibly investing in DLC to stretch the gap between sequels? It's as if books are disappearing, to be replaced with short story collections and lengthy book series, or movies are being replaced with TV shows and movie franchises. Is there no middle ground any more? I don't know, and that worries me because some of the best games have come from such development, and it would be a shame if it was lost.

Much truth, much sadness

Well, not really.

First, none of the AAA+ games that have teams of over 100 ppl and cost scores of millions to make need to have months of playtime devoted to them. Mass Effect 1 was around 20 hours long...Baldurs Gate 1 was 50+ hours while BG2 was 250+ hours. Arcanum too was close to BG1 in playtime if I recall correctly.

Furthermore, mid tier teams were always publisher owned AFAIK. It's not possible to have a full time team of 6+ ppl and not be publisher OR at least investor owned, currently. (though with crowdsourcing this could well, and hopefully, change in the future)

It's the fanbase that is fucking retarded. If ppl didn't lap up the crap churned out, like Mass Effect, Call of Duty, MMOs, etc etc then we would not see this shit at all. Money is what matters to all publishers and nearly all developers. If Mass Effect had utterly shit sales, we would suddenly see Bioware make Baldurs Gate 3, KOTOR 3, etc etc.

 

[BaconAndEggs]

Arcanum 2 on Source, BG3 on ToEE Engine, and Obsidian wanting to do licensed games on it..

..I think i'm going to cry in the corner for a little while.

 

[tuluse]

I actually found the newspapers to be quite neat.

Also, I told you guys that he really liked Fallout 3.

When I hear him talk about it, I reminded of a quote by John Waters,

“There’s no such thing as a bad movie,” said Waters in his talk. “If you’re bored, just watch the lamps. You get obsessive and you look for the details.”

All his positive comments (other than VATS) are the equivalent of watching the lamps.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

All his positive comments (other than VATS) are the equivalent of watching the lamps.

No, almost all Fallout 3 fans that I talked with talked about how they love all the exploration stuff. They are basically hiking simulator lovers.

 

[Stabwound]

Great job on getting these interviews lately. It's been a highlight of the site.

 

[Papa Môlé]

First, we tried putting a lot of features into these games. We really needed to learn how to edit, because we would spend a lot of man-hours putting a feature into a game that hardly any of the players would ultimately care about. For example, Arcanum had newspapers that reported on major incidents that were caused by the player, but I don't remember a single review mentioning that. We spent a lot of time getting that working, and those hours could have spent balancing real-time combat, or fixing the multiplayer code.

 

[Jasede]

Great job on getting these interviews lately. It's been a highlight of the site.

Busy bee.

 

[tuluse]

All his positive comments (other than VATS) are the equivalent of watching the lamps.

No, almost all Fallout 3 fans that I talked with talked about how they love all the exploration stuff. They are basically hiking simulator lovers.

I don't see how these two ideas are contradictory.

 

[hoverdog]

I'm installing Arcanum as we speak.

jesus fucking christ, I have no idea who should i play

halp me codxe