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Codex Review RPG Codex Retrospective Review: Pillars of Eternity Revisited

FeelTheRads

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13,716
"My fun is the TRUE FUN because I'm a basement-dwelling nerdy good ol' boy"

You mean like how Sawyerists claim Sawyer fixed RPGs because all RPGs before him had degenerate gameplay and only he managed to make RPGs fun?

But I guess it's not as satisfying as building theories upon theories about how his approach to system design is fundamentally shit and will always be shit, worse than D&D in every way, etc etc.

You mean like how Sawyerists claim Sawyer fixed RPGs... erm... actually, fuck you and go choke on Sawyer's dick. You are clueless about RPGs and you don't like them anyway save for Obsidian-like garbage.

Yes, D&D is superior and will always be superior in every way to the garbage Sawyer farted in a couple of months. And that's a motherfucking fact. Sure, some shithead html-coder is suddenly the one and greatest RPG designer. Kill yourself.

P.S. Grunker is still such a dumb autistard. No wonder he's also a fan of the Pathfinder lore and art. :lol:

Also lol at Infinitron's "woah u know my mantra content iz keeng!". Fucking lol, content in Obsidian's games. :lol:
And I thought you were above stuff like "lol u r basement dwelling nerd i fuck my girlfriend 2 times a day that's why you don't like poe", but I guess you're a bigger retard than previously thought possible.

As we await the coming of Deadfire, let this be our truly final word on Pillars of Eternity.

Such pathetic, disgusting shilling and they didn't offer you a job yet, did they? Well.
 
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Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
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And I thought you were above stuff like "lol u r basement dwelling nerd i fuck my girlfriend 2 times a day that's why you don't like poe", but I guess you're a bigger retard than previously thought possible.

He's been pretty outspoken regarding his negative opinion of omega turbodweebs, not sure how you've managed to overlook it all this time.
 

FeelTheRads

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That's hilarious coming from someone who spends all day copy/pasting gaming news. Either he must hate what he's doing and hopes to get one of those fancy, cushy jobs like BN and sea :lol: or it's the typical "i have no actual argument so I'll call you a basement dweller which means i win because i live on the first floor!". Either way, disgusting creature.

And as even more proof of what a retarded, clueless, disgusting fanboy he is:

Let me try to explain.

I believe that for the majority of CRPG players, certainly experienced ones, the "feel" of a game's ruleset is something that quickly recedes into the background and becomes a kind of second nature. It does not factor heavily into their sense of fun in the long term. In the end, whether it's D&D or PoE, what they're doing is fighting monsters, engaging in dialogue, solving quests. You know my mantra - content is king.

As such, any attempt to convey some sort of appealing idiosyncrasy via a game's ruleset is a wasted effort that will only appeal to a few. The role of the ruleset should thefore be to provide a sensible platform for CRPG content creation, first and foremost.

First, Sawyer was designing the most perfect amazing system.

Now that we've actually seen it, the system doesn't matter that much.

Same like how PoE was not supposed to have trash combat but after it was released suddenly trash fights are essential!

Seriously, why isn't this retard dumbfucked yet, I don't know.
 
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FeelTheRads

Arcane
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Apr 18, 2008
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BG2 without Sword Coast Stratagems is fairly trivial for good players.
That's why they are considered good.

Yeah, let's ignore that PoE is "fairly trivial" for anybody capable of dragging a mouse cursor across the screen, just as Sawyer intended, because the IE games were impossible to play for people who didn't read the D&D rule-books. :lol:
 
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Roguey

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That's hilarious coming from someone who spends all day copy/pasting gaming news. Either he must hate what he's doing and hopes to get one of those fancy, cushy jobs like BN and sea :lol: or it's the typical "i have no actual argument so I'll call you a basement dweller which means i win because i live on the first floor!". Either way, disgusting creature.

And as even more proof of what a retarded, clueless, disgusting fanboy he is:

Keep in mind that like all Israelis, he was in the IDF. A country where everyone's required/expected to be a lean, mean fighting machine.
 

luj1

You're all shills
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So, I was convinced to try WM. Literally the very first thing as you get into the expansion is half a dozen identical trash mob fights, followed by a "boss" fight that's just more of the same. I can't believe I actually fell for it.


But..but... White Marsh fixed everything wrong with Poe.. right? Right?? :negative:
 

Iskramor

Dumbfuck!
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Joined
Jul 8, 2017
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"My fun is the TRUE FUN because I'm a basement-dwelling nerdy good ol' boy"

You mean like how Sawyerists claim Sawyer fixed RPGs because all RPGs before him had degenerate gameplay and only he managed to make RPGs fun?

But I guess it's not as satisfying as building theories upon theories about how his approach to system design is fundamentally shit and will always be shit, worse than D&D in every way, etc etc.

You mean like how Sawyerists claim Sawyer fixed RPGs... erm... actually, fuck you and go choke on Sawyer's dick. You are clueless about RPGs and you don't like them anyway save for Obsidian-like garbage.

Yes, D&D is superior and will always be superior in every way to the garbage Sawyer farted in a couple of months. And that's a motherfucking fact. Sure, some shithead html-coder is suddenly the one and greatest RPG designer. Kill yourself.

P.S. Grunker is still such a dumb autistard. No wonder he's also a fan of the Pathfinder lore and art. :lol:

Also lol at Infinitron's "woah u know my mantra content iz keeng!". Fucking lol, content in Obsidian's games. :lol:
And I thought you were above stuff like "lol u r basement dwelling nerd i fuck my girlfriend 2 times a day that's why you don't like poe", but I guess you're a bigger retard than previously thought possible.

As we await the coming of Deadfire, let this be our truly final word on Pillars of Eternity.

Such pathetic, disgusting shilling and they didn't offer you a job yet, did they? Well.

Arguments ? Any ? D&D was made by someone who think that wearing better armor makes you harder to hit (?) How someone can be that much detached from reality? Maybe by basement windows? Dont make me started on spell memeorising when yo ucan memeorize 1 spell multiple times how is that even possible? Or unwieldable weapons like 2H hammers wtf???
 

Jason Liang

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My impressions on Pillar's class diversity vs AD&D 3rd Edition:

Both have 11 base classes (not counting NWN's prestige classes here). Pillars basically updated Sorcerer to Cipher and remade Bard into Chanter, the other 9 classes are the same conceptually.

Pillars:
Fighter (30 accuracy/ 30 deflect), Monk (30/25), Ranger (30/20) and Rogue (30/15) all basically play the same with different and overlapping offensive and defensive potential. Fighter class abilities are mostly defensive (tank build), while Monk -> Ranger -> Rogue have more and more dps increasing class abilities. They and (and every other class) draw on nearly the same pool of talents and skills.

Druid (20/20), Wizard (20/10) and Priest (20/15) are the three traditional caster classes. The only major difference between them is different spellbooks. Druids have spiritshifting, Priests have the holy aura, and Wizards have some class talents that improve rod use or give them magical defense, but otherwise they have the same progression, just different spellbooks.

Paladins (25/20+6*) and Chanters (25/25) are sort of hybrid classes with spell-like abilities (auras and chants) that don't interrupt the build's dps.

Ciphers (25/20) are a variant caster that accumulates focus by attacking and then consumes the focus for a spell effect.

Not sure what Barbarians (25/15) are like or why they have such gimpy accuracy and deflection scores. They seem similar to Ciphers except that they gain more and more combat abilities as a fight progresses.

Characters can use weapons, armor, and advance in skills almost exactly the same, regardless of class. Any character can sneak by taking Stealth, cast spells from scrolls by taking Lore, or disarm traps/ set traps/ lockpick by taking Mechanics.

So while Pillars has 11 classes, they are basically only 3 types of characters:
30 accuracy warrior class (tank -> striker)
25 accuracy hybrid class/ slow casters
20 accuracy caster class/ chain casters

NWN:
In brief, we can group NWN classes into 3-4 different groups as well:

Fighters, Paladins, Rangers and Barbarians are THAC0 classes whose main feature is superior THAC0 progression (1/ level) which also affects the number of attacks per turn. The main difference between them is that Paladins, Rangers and Barbarians get unique class feats while Fighters get a feat every 2 levels but drawn from a general pool (so allows for more customization). But if you break it down it amounts to a bonus feat every 2 levels, more or less.

Rogues, Bards and Monks are skill classes whose main feature is superior skill development (more skill points and more class skills) including useful combat skills like Tumble, Discipline, Use Magic Devices, Hide, Social skills, etc...

Cleric, Druid, Wizard and Sorcerer are caster classes. Clerics and Druids are a bit more of hybrid classes since they have average THAC0 progression and some combat features (Clerics have Heavy Armor proficiency and Divine Might/ Divine Shield feats, and Druids have shapeshifting, Animal companion and buffs). But the caster classes main feature is to end with a full spellbook.

However, NWN characters have much more hard limits than Pillars characters. A character can't get the natural cap of 4 attacks/ round (min. 16 THAC0) without taking a THAC0 class (excluding Monks special attack progression). While a character can spend feats to overcome class weapon/ armor limits, it's more common to work within those limits.

All in all, NWN classes are much more specific, specialized and feel different in significant ways than Pillars' classes, especially since class progression in Pillars is mainly slowly accumulating feats that are limited to per encounter or per rest. Once feats have been exhausted, characters are basically the same (the Napoleon's Musketmen problem).
 
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Prime Junta

Guest
Oh come ON Jason. Did you ever get past the character creation screen and staring at some numbers? "Not sure what barbarians are like"... and then proceeds to masturbate to some numbers while dismissing the real distinctions between -- and within -- the classes as "mainly slowly accumulating feats that are limited to per encounter or per rest." And as a cherry on the cake, you base your analysis on "AD&D 3rd edition" ... WHICH DOESN'T EXIST, while blabbering about THAC0 (an AD&D concept) and NWN (based on D&D 3).

Either you're a glittering gem of retardation, or a grade A troll. I'm leaning towards the former.
 

Jason Liang

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Oh come ON Jason. Did you ever get past the character creation screen and staring at some numbers? "Not sure what barbarians are like"... and then proceeds to masturbate to some numbers while dismissing the real distinctions between -- and within -- the classes as "mainly slowly accumulating feats that are limited to per encounter or per rest." And as a cherry on the cake, you base your analysis on "AD&D 3rd edition" ... WHICH DOESN'T EXIST, while blabbering about THAC0 (an AD&D concept) and NWN (based on D&D 3).

Either you're a glittering gem of retardation, or a grade A troll. I'm leaning towards the former.

Sure, I might be wrong. But Pillars' character system seems fairly transparent.

The problem with Pillars' distinctions "within" builds is that those distinctions don't really interact much with the abilities and limitations of the class itself. Sure, instead of a bow rogue, you could build a sword and shield melee rogue or a scroll rogue- but that can be done with nearly any class in pretty much the exact same way.

In VD's Pillars review, he made a great point that although Pillars has pistols and arquebuses, they really have no connection to the setting- they make just as much sense as machine guns and grenades. In a similar way, allowing any class to use any weapon and armor just as effectively as any other class (with a few exceptions) makes the game less interesting strategically. Pillars has character classes but plays more like a classless rpg system like Darklands, Arcanum, Fallout and Shadowrun. In fact, it feels even more classless than Arcanum and Fallout since attributes have a much smaller effect on character progression and combat ability in Pillars.

If you disagree, then perhaps you could explain the crucial differences between Pillars' classes for us.
 
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Prime Junta

Guest
The problem with Pillars' distinctions "within" builds is that those distinctions don't really interact much with the abilities and limitations of the class itself. Sure, instead of a bow rogue, you could build a sword and shield melee rogue or a scroll rogue- but that can be done with nearly any class in pretty much the exact same way.

If you disagree, then perhaps you could explain the crucial differences between Pillars' classes for us.

Um. Okay. I'll give a couple of examples.

Rangers have animal companions. You can build them any number of ways around that. To take just a few simplistic examples: you can pick talents which boost pet damage, and choose weapons and other talents which synergise with that, making the pet the main damage dealer (example: Merciless Companion which gives a massive boost if the target is suffering from a DoT effect, plus Remembrance or Tidefall or Bleeding Wounds). Or, you can pick talents and abilities which boost pet defences, while picking talents, items, and abilities, which boost /your/ damage. This makes the pet a meat shield which pins them down while you waste them. You can do either of these as a melee build or as a ranged build. That alone gives you four different ways to build your ranger (ranged/hurty pet, ranged/tanky pet, melee/hurty pet, melee/tanky pet). All of these will require different tactics, and will have advantages and disadvantages depending on who you're facing, and of course play completely differently from any other weapons-oriented classes, because they revolve around the various ways you and the pet coordinate. (And here I'm not even getting into firearms-specirfic ranger builds, with Gunner, Powder Burns and what have you).

Barbarians have Carnage. They kind of stink at single-target damage. You wouldn't want to go one-on-one with a dragon with one, but in a dragon fight, you would want to send the barbarian to wipe out its minions. Now, barbarians synergise especially well with weapons that confer status effects on-hit or on-crit, because that also applies to Carnage. So, for example, you can build a CC barbarian: give him a weapon which inflicts a status effect -- or one in each hand -- and send them into the fray. One example: the Spelltongue rapier which steals status effect durations. A barbarian with a Spelltongue fighting a mob -- or even a single target -- will be able to keep up positive status effects forever (Savage Defiance, for example, which continuously regenerates stamina, and naturally anything you can confer with a scroll or a spell). Do that, and you've got something that will be almost impossible to take down as long as there are enemies to fight. And you can't do that with any other class.

With a paladin, you can pick items, abilities, and talents that synergise with Flames of Devotion, which will give you the nastiest alpha striker of any class. Or you can build on Deep Faith, which will give you the highest defences by a pretty wide margin, while retaining a broad range of extremely useful support abilities (auras, exhortations). And neither of these will play like any other class.

Similar paths exist for fighters, monks, and rogues too (although personally I haven't played with rogues much; they require too much micro for my blood). Check out the builds thread on the Obsidian forums. Picking stuff that synergises with the class's core abilities is the whole key to it.
 

Jasede

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"You can take talents which boost pet damage."

I hate the way you phrased this. You make it sound like this is an MMORPG. And that is one of my main problems with the game. It feels 'designed' and 'balanced' as a single player MMORPG. In those, the progression is similar in that 1 point difference is a very small boost and you often have talent trees to spec your character. The mere fact it feels so distant and MMORPG-esque ruins much of the mystique an RPG is supposed to have.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
I hate the way you phrased this. You make it sound like this is an MMORPG. And that is one of my main problems with the game. It feels 'designed' and 'balanced' as a single player MMORPG. In those, the progression is similar in that 1 point difference is a very small boost and you often have talent trees to spec your character. The mere fact it feels so distant and MMORPG-esque ruins much of the mystique an RPG is supposed to have.

Except that in Pillars the boosts aren't single-point, they're fucking big. Merciless Companion for example is a 50% damage boost. And that's even bigger than it sounds because of the flat DR.

Can't win with you guys. First Pillars is bad because abilities/talents don't synergise with class talents. Then Pillars is bad because they do.

tl;dr stop lying
 

Jasede

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I hate the way you phrased this. You make it sound like this is an MMORPG. And that is one of my main problems with the game. It feels 'designed' and 'balanced' as a single player MMORPG. In those, the progression is similar in that 1 point difference is a very small boost and you often have talent trees to spec your character. The mere fact it feels so distant and MMORPG-esque ruins much of the mystique an RPG is supposed to have.

Except that in Pillars the boosts aren't single-point, they're fucking big. Merciless Companion for example is a 50% damage boost. And that's even bigger than it sounds because of the flat DR.

Can't win with you guys. First Pillars is bad because abilities/talents don't synergise with class talents. Then Pillars is bad because they do.

tl;dr stop lying

I was talking abilities, not Perks. Feats/Perks are or can be big in both systems. I meant ability scores, like Strength, Dexterity. Erm, excuse me, 'Might' because every wizard is a muscle wizard... What I mean, and you clearly know I mean this because I have harped about this since Pillars came out, is the fact that if I put 1 point into an ability, the difference between 15 and 16 is the same as 8 and 9, and that the increments are usually a mere 3% or something similarly small. I see very little functional difference in having 30% more damage for a 10 point ability score investment. That does not feel good to me. Acceptable in an MMORPG, surely, where the point is the endgame and getting gear, but hardly in a game like this.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
I was talking abilities, not Perks. Feats/Perks are or can be big in both systems. I meant ability scores, like Strength, Dexterity. Erm, excuse me, 'Might' because every wizard is a muscle wizard... What I mean, and you clearly know I mean this because I have harped about this since Pillars came out, is the fact that if I put 1 point into an ability, the difference between 15 and 16 is the same as 8 and 9, and that the increments are usually a mere 3% or something similarly small. I see very little functional difference in having 30% more damage for a 10 point ability score investment. That does not feel good to me. Acceptable in an MMORPG, surely, where the point is the endgame and getting gear, but hardly in a game like this.

Oh, the ability scores again. Sure, keep whining about them and ignore the rest of the system.

I'll just point out that the D&D based cRPGs might as well not have ability scores, because there's only one sane way to distribute them for each class; you just have to roll a few times to get that distribution. That's an order of magnitude dumber.
 

Jason Liang

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I don't see choosing a feat that increases pet damage or accuracy (Merciless Companion, or your example, which is actually Stalker's Sense) and a feat that increases my damage or accuracy (Backstab or for Ranger, the cross-class sneak attack) as a crucial difference. Just like Monks have Duality of Mortal Presence (+8 deflection) while Rangers have Arrow Sense (+15 deflection vs. ranged attacks) isn't a crucial difference either. Sure, each class has slightly different offensive and defensive potential but, by endgame, all of the tank-> striker classes end up at about the same place, all of the casters end up at about the same place, and all of the hybrid casters end up at about the same place, even if they are taking different paths to get there.
 

Jasede

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I was talking abilities, not Perks. Feats/Perks are or can be big in both systems. I meant ability scores, like Strength, Dexterity. Erm, excuse me, 'Might' because every wizard is a muscle wizard... What I mean, and you clearly know I mean this because I have harped about this since Pillars came out, is the fact that if I put 1 point into an ability, the difference between 15 and 16 is the same as 8 and 9, and that the increments are usually a mere 3% or something similarly small. I see very little functional difference in having 30% more damage for a 10 point ability score investment. That does not feel good to me. Acceptable in an MMORPG, surely, where the point is the endgame and getting gear, but hardly in a game like this.

Oh, the ability scores again. Sure, keep whining about them and ignore the rest of the system.

I'll just point out that the D&D based cRPGs might as well not have ability scores, because there's only one sane way to distribute them for each class; you just have to roll a few times to get that distribution. That's an order of magnitude dumber.

I have already explained this in some other thread and will not do so again.
As to the 'keep whining' thing: ability scores are the first thing you decide about your character, or roll. They affect the rest of the entire game fundamentally. If they do not feel significant, if such a pillar (heh) of the game is already crumbling before the game starts this problem will ripple and echo through the entire other systems.
The other systems are dull as well, but we can agree to disagree.

Still, if you cannot acknowledge that ability scores are perhaps the most important thing as all starts and comes from them I don't think we will ever be on the same page, even if we disagreed on that page.

Anyway, excuse me. It's Sunday so I am playing Grimoire, finally.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
I don't see choosing a feat that increases pet damage or accuracy (Merciless Companion, or your example, which is actually Stalker's Sense) and a feat that increases my damage or accuracy (Backstab or for Ranger, the cross-class sneak attack) as a crucial difference.

Then you're blind bro. The former requires you to coordinate two toons -- the pet and the ranger. The latter requires you to micro one toon (the rogue, to get him into and out of trouble). You play them different ways, and each will make different fights harder or easier.

Just like Monks have Duality of Mortal Presence (+8 deflection) while Rangers have Arrow Sense (+15 deflection vs. ranged attacks) isn't a crucial difference either.

Uh, so, ranged defence is exactly like melee defence. Right.

Sure, each class has slightly different offensive and defensive potential but, by endgame, all of the tank-> striker classes end up at about the same place, all of the casters end up at about the same place, and all of the hybrid casters end up at about the same place, even if they are taking different paths to get there.

Dude, now I know you're full of shit. Just play the game. A high-level monk plays nothing like a high-level ranger, which plays nothing like a high-level rogue, which plays nothing like a high-level barb.
 

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