RPG Lineage Chart

[Infinitron]

Cool, although some of these "connections" are kind of bullshit

http://www.thegamecritique.com/recent-posts/the-rpg-lineage-chart/4392/

The RPG Lineage Chart​

Way back at PAX East I got to talking with some people over dinner Saturday and one of the topics that came up was my Dragon Age II Lineage post I did the year before and the research that went into it. I described what I did and that I ended up making a chart. In looking through my collection of business cards from that weekend I believe it was Scott Macmillan that asked to see that chart if he could. Well I found it recently after the recent home renovation in a pile of papers and roleplaying books. It’s rough and there is research behind all the arrows though I can only remember about half of it now. Of course, it is no where near complete. The purpose of the chart was to find the lineage of just Dragon Age II anything else in there is extra. Plus, I was running out of space. Also, please excuse my chicken scratch. Click on the images for full view.​

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Update: This has gotten some discussion on twitter. More than anything else I’ve written recently. This is one response from Patrick Holleman in picture form. And Stephen Winson spent all day to go to the trouble of making the chart much more readable and expanded a number of the empty portions on the left and right sides. Again, click to see the whole thing. You can download the PDF here.​

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Update 2: Apparantly, he wasn’t done and still isn’t. I’m not going to post the updated version, which has gone far beyond RPGs into every corner of the video game space, because it’s a long process to get the image that will soon be out of date as Stephen Winson continues to work on the chart. Here’s the latest one.​

 

[felipepepe]

Yeah, the idea is cool, but he is trying to force some points with some ridiculous "X+Y=Z" that makes no sense...VtM Bloodlines + Morrowind = Oblivion? Final Fantasy + Dungeon Hack = Dark Cloud?

Besides, this one seems more interesting and bullshit-free:

Spoiler

 

[Luzur]

he forgot Might and Magic.

 

[Average Manatee]

Yeah, the idea is cool, but he is trying to force some points with some ridiculous "X+Y=Z" that makes no sense...VtM Bloodlines + Morrowind = Oblivion? Final Fantasy + Dungeon Hack = Dark Cloud?

Besides, this one seems more interesting and bullshit-free:

Spoiler

Hey, it lets you visualize the decline. Very nice.

 

[Turjan]

How do I have to read this: Planescape Torment is the spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate II (second chart)?

 

[Mortmal]

Incomplete and wrong, amateurism.....

 

[mindx2]

Yeah, the idea is cool, but he is trying to force some points with some ridiculous "X+Y=Z" that makes no sense...VtM Bloodlines + Morrowind = Oblivion? Final Fantasy + Dungeon Hack = Dark Cloud?

Besides, this one seems more interesting and bullshit-free:

Spoiler

I like it but the Fallouts should be connected to Wasteland.

 

[felipepepe]

I like it but the Fallouts should be connected to Wasteland.

Yeah, he starts okay, but then focus too much on the "date" aspect, instead of the influences...is still a WIP though, and shows a bit more promess...

 

[mindx2]

I like it but the Fallouts should be connected to Wasteland.

Yeah, he starts okay, but then focus too much on the "date" aspect, instead of the influences...is still a WIP though, and shows a bit more promess...

He could leave the dates off completely or put them in parenthesis next to each game and only focus on the "influences" part. Think it makes it more visually interesting that way.

edit: Just realized that this is an actual KS thing! $6,000 seems like a lot to ask for what he's making?!

 

[felipepepe]

edit: Just realized that this is an actual KS thing! $6,000 seems like a lot to ask for what he's making?!

Which is why he only got $1,290/6,000 with only 50 hours remaining.


Also, found this on the comments, way more interesting than both the previous ones for PnP players:

Spoiler

 

[MMXI]

That second one in the OP is especially awful. I don't even know how the creator arrived at half of these connections. Diablo 2 and Baldur's Gate led to Diablo 3? Might and Magic came straight from D&D with no Wizardry influence? How did Baldur's Gate 2 lead to Planescape: Torment when Torment came out a year earlier? What does System Shock 2 have to do with Mass Effect other than both being science fiction? What's the connection between Baldur's Gate 2 and Arcanum? Why does Arcanum and not the Gold Box or Infinity Engine games lead to Temple of Elemental Evil? Why does Arcanum alone lead to Bloodlines, with no input from the Ultima Underworld/System Shock/Thief/Deus Ex group of games? Why is Bard's Tale connected to Baldur's Gate? Why does Wizard's Crown come from Wizardry alone and not Tunnels of Doom? Why did Arena come from Wizardry and not Ultima Underworld? Why was Bloodlines an influence on Oblivion?

And key omissions too. Where the hell is Dungeon Master? It would have connected up with Eye of the Beholder and Ultima Underworld rather well. When I saw Traveller lead to Darklands I immediately wondered why the creator missed out the MegaTraveller games. Having Final Fantasy Tactics spawning straight from Final Fantasy V is odd, as they could have done with some earlier SRPGs on there.

And I don't quite know what's up with Persona on that chart. Why does Wizardry lead to it? Shouldn't it be Megami Tensai instead? And if it should, why does Final Fantasy lead to it when the first Megami Tensai game predates the first Final Fantasy game? Confusing!

I like how the creator shoehorned Metroid into that chart, just to complete the Castlevania group, which itself was shoehorned into the chart just to connect to Zelda 2, which is there to complete the Zelda group, which itself is there for NO FUCKING REASON WHATSOEVER! Oh, wait, the Zelda games lead to a modern action game called Darksiders. Who wants to bet that this is the creator's favourite game?

Anyway, brofisting the OP for making me semi-rage.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Wizardry => Jagged Alliance

Baldur's Gate => Diablo 3

So basically 2nd (updated) chart has games that are in almost no way related except for having the same developer?

Or games that are in no way related at all except for being RPGs (BG and D3)?

 

[deuxhero]

While everyone notes how bad the cRPG part is, I'll note the jRPG side is even worse.

Lets start with the first thing I noticed: That they linked Final Fantasy to Star Ocean. What?

Star Ocean is basically the Tales of Phantasia team that left after Namco treated them like crap. Linking to Dragon Quest I could understand due being the father of jRPGs and the series being published by Enix, but Final Fantasy? There is absolutely NOTHING connecting the two. Surely these idiots didn't think Till the End of Time was the first game in the series?

Persona from Final Fantasy? That's really some really fucking talented wizardry given Megami Tensei came out two months before Final Fantasy.

As for the updated character, they fixed Star Ocean... by removing it entirely.

Not sure how Nocturne is influenced by Pokemon when Nocturne introduces zero elements similar to Pokemon that weren't in previous games (that mind you predate Pokemon).

Can someone explain to me how Dark Cloud influenced Dragon Quarter?

This chart is garbage! CRUNCH! I'll add it to the heap!

 

[treave]

Look, he was looking for the lineage of Dragon Age II, when we all know that lineage can be traced directly back to a little something called the 'Awesome Button'. Clearly he's not the brightest bulb in the room.

 

[Fowyr]

So, now you can put every your mindfart on the KS and get $1200? Duly noted.

 

[Infinitron]

Update 3: He’s still updating it and it is almost at a singularity all the criss crossing. Last night he started on the Adventure games, something I happen to know a bit of history about and saw a glaring error, or rather an unclear one with Grim Fandango pointing to Monkey Island. It was suppose to be the new Telltale series, but it wasn’t clear. So I did some quick referencing of back catalogs and put together a quick and dirty chart which is mostly the history of Sierra and LucasArts. The very early stuff I’m a little iffy on, mainly because I wasn’t born yet, but the rest is pretty solid. Also, the names are super long so less overall titles ended up on the chart than my RPG one and there is a list at the top of games I couldn’t figure out where they would go.​

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Click on it to see the larger version. Also, here is the full updated chart with my new notes added in.​

 

[Infinitron]

"He happens to know a bit of history about" but chart contains only mainstream Sierra and Lucasarts-descended stuff (Psychonauts?!). And where are Legend Entertainment's games???

 

[JarlFrank]

Every such chart is bound to fail because you cannot make linear "dynasty trees" of RPGs because you always need to keep the big picture in mind, and the less obvious influences (from other genres or even other media, from the current trends of the era, from the personal preferences of the developers, etc etc).

Saying "Game X was made because the devs saw games Y and Z and wanted to combine them into something new!" is stupid because it never really happens like that. There are just devs out there who like RPGs, decide to make an RPG, then remember all the awesome RPGs (both pen and paper and PC) that they've played and think "hmm, I think we should make it similar to game Z, because that worked really well and a game of that style would be best suited for our idea!"

 

[Crooked Bee]

(The tinyurl link leads to this thread, obv.)

 

[Hoaxmetal]

Butthurt delivered, good work everyone.

 

[MMXI]

Glorious. This is what I live for.

 

[Excidium]

 

[MMXI]

Yeah, fuck you too. If you believe that too harsh, check the definitions of words before you use them.

I looked through the thread and amazed at the lack of reading comprehension among the posters. It wasn’t supposed to be comprehensive or definitive or whatever I got accused of, it was a visual outline for a post I was writing. The further away it got from the main thread, the less I gave a shit. As for Stephen’s chart, he’s doing it to pass the time. He would love you to debate individual things with him as it is still a work in progress.

But honestly, I don’t see any valuable discussion in that thread, but I will answer the few of the valid points brought up.

Might and Magic – I made multiple copies because they got super crowded, would smudge and I’d have to reorgnize them. I can only assume I made a mistake with the line. I have no idea why it’s pointing from DnD and not Wizardry.

Panescape: Torment – It was developed at the same time as Baldur’s Gate II, which spent it’s early development time in upgrading the engine to a new standard. Panescape used this new engine and managed to release first because it didn’t have to spend the man hours on it.

Arena – Comes from Wizardry because lead developer said so in an interview among other games.

Finally, since when did “know a bit about” mean “full and comprehensive knowledge and understanding on a topic?” To answer your question, I ran out of fucking space on the page if you didn’t notice. I said it was down and dirty, about 10-15 minutes of time, also I blatantly admitted that I knew only really knew Sierra and LucasArts. Not really a big gocha.

 

[Arpad]

I'd brofist those if I could.

 

[Infinitron]