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Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (new From Software game)

Discussion in 'jRPG Weeaboo Discussion' started by Matador, Jun 10, 2018.

  1. Silva Arcane

    Silva
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    Watch out. The English translation this time is a bit janky. A jap user on Fextralife wiki had this to say a out the Kusabimaru:

    "The Japanese description is a little different from the English. It says: "Although a shinobi is bound by duty to kill, He must pay his own share of the price." I think that's a bit clearer to the meaning. Like the other guy here said: "As you cut your enemy so too do you cut yourself." A karma thing. The name is literally "Wedge," but it's supposed to be kinda ambiguous. Like the description says, the name itself is a mantra. The meaning is meant to be contemplated by the person who wields it."

    Missed opportunity to give more weight to the game's themes.

    Another misstep I found is when you kill Genichiro and take the "shinobi shortcut" back to the dilapidated temple. In English Wolf says the Sculptor saved the boy (which sounds nonsensic, frankly). In jap Wolf says "it's done, the boy is saved" and proceeds to thank the Sculptor for the help.
     
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  2. Silva Arcane

    Silva
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    Cool piece of lore I've found on Reddit by user Sarumaru, regarding Japanese folklore involving serpents and centipedes. It surely gives the relation between Ashina and Senpou Temple a new perspective:

    Show Spoiler
    ...As a distinctly Japanese game, the lore is this game draws heavily from the mythology of the land itself including many tales and legends from Japanese folklore. One of these famous stories provides a background for what I feel is a major inspiration in the design of the game. This legend in particular is that of the battle between the Serpents and the Centipedes. (Spoilers ahead obviously as we discuss key parts of the game.)

    There are multiple legends in Japan of battles occurring between giant serpents and monstrous centipedes. Two such examples are the legend of Tawara Toda as well as the battle of the gods of Mt. Akagi and Mt. Futara. In the legend of Tawara Toda, the hero Fujiwara no Hidesato came to a bridge where a giant serpent lay. Unafraid, he steps over the serpent only for it to disappear into the water and return as a beautiful woman. She comments on his bravery and asks for his assistance in slaying the giant centipede Ōmukade who had slain her children. After agreeing to help, he slays the beast by firing arrows into it's eyes and throat (depending on the story) and is rewarded with gifts from the woman including a bag of rice that will never empty. Meanwhile, there is another such legend in which the gods of Mt. Akagi and Mt. Futara in Japan take the forms of a Centipede and Serpent respectively and battle. In this version, the Serpent recruits the help of a master archer by the name of Sarumaro to slay the Centipede in a similar fashion. So, knowing these tales there is already an obvious connection between the many Centipede and Serpent references in Sekiro, but let's take things a step further.

    As we know, there are many encounters with both Serpents and Centipedes in Sekiro but they occur in two areas primarily. On one hand, the Serpents are clearly representative of the Ashina with the numerous references that can be found in and around Ashina castle. The giant serpents, the Dragon's Heritage, even going all the way to the Mist Nobles and the Divine Dragon in the Fountainhead Palace as well as the Giant Carp (A creature which also has connections to the Dragons in mythology). The connection between Ashina and the Serpents is made quite clear as well as their connection to immortality. On the other hand, the Centipedes are found primarily in one specific section of the game, Senpou Temple. The Monks of Senpou Temple on Mt. Kongo clearly have a deep connection to the centipedes that seems to relate to their quest for immortality. From the undying monks who are infested with giant centipedes, to the enemies that seem to go so far as to try and emulate the centipedes themselves, there is a clear connection between Senpou Temple and the Centipedes. The game also makes it clear that there is no love lost between the monks of Senpou Temple and the Ashina as Isshin himself speaks dismissively of the monks and the "rats" that they send to spy on him. But this seemingly mild separation between the two hints at a much deeper conflict that runs between them, Gold and Iron.

    To understand this next step, we have to understand a little bit about Japanese history itself. During the Warring States period in Japan, there were two precious metals that meant more than anything, Gold and Iron. With precious metals such as Gold funding their war coffers, the Warlords could buy supplies, soldiers, and even bribe foes. Iron proved itself to be equally important due to it's necessity for the creation of weaponry with which one could defend themselves from their foes. Now in Japan, there were plenty of gold mines which could provide one with a sufficient treasury. A prime example being Takeda Shingen's gold mines which fueled his war efforts. Gold mines which were tended to by miners who would fight and protect the mines which they dug endlessly through the mountains, a specialist group that came to be called "Centipedes". These centipedes seemed to consider the centipedes a patron diety since gold veins would also be called centipedes do to the similarity in appearance to centipede tracks. Iron, meanwhile, was scarce in it's pure form and came primarily from Iron Sand. Iron Sand was obtained primarily from collecting the sediment from the roots of river plants or filtered out by washing mountain sediment into rushing rivers. Rivers that had since ancient times been considered the domain of Serpents and Dragons. Knowing this, which group is known primarily for the mountain on which they reside and which group has an almost addictive connection to water? The Senpou monks and the Ashina clan respectively.

    With this knowledge, suddenly the story in Sekiro paints a clearer picture. Both groups have a connection to either the Centipedes or Serpents and make use of them in their quest for immortality. Both groups have a "Divine" child which they rely on as a means to that end and both groups have a connection to a precious metal. The Ashina, as representatives of the Serpent, are patrons of war. They rely on Iron to fuel their war they are on the verge of losing and rely heavily on the Fountainhead waters as their path to immortality through the Serpents. The Senpou monks, as representative of the Centipede, are patron of greed. They lost their way in their desire for immortality and hoard their wealth in their lavish temples on their mountain as they obtain immortality through the Centipedes. Together, they would have the Gold and Iron needed to defend the lands of Ashina. Instead, with the Centipede of Mt Kongo in conflict with the Serpent of Ashina, they are doomed to fall as they tear one another down. This could be why the Return ending of the game is considered the best ending, with the "Divine" children of both the Serpent and the Centipede coming together in order to find a different path. There are a few other connections and possible points in the lore to connect here (The significance of rice, why certain characters are "infested", and how this all pertains to Sekiro himself), but I feel that this explains the general reasoning as to why Centipedes and Serpents are so prevalent as well as a few of the other common themes within the game. If you made it this far I would like to thank you for reading and I hope you found it interesting as it is my first Lore post. I would also like to give credit to the manga "Munakata Kyouju Ikouroku" for giving me the inspiration for this theory.
     
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  3. Tancred Educated

    Tancred
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    After two hours of pain, I have just now finally managed to defeat Owl (Father) for the first time. I ended up being confident against everything he threw at me except that one goddamn move where he throws out the firecrackers and instantly follows up with the sword. I couldn't reliably dodge it.

    Still gotta beat Demon of Hatred and Isshin.
     
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  4. Multidirectional Arcane

    Multidirectional
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    Hah, that move of his is nothing but free damage opportunity for me, I always dodge forward at the right time now. I did endure a lot of pain first time fighting him though. Now I don't really find this fight any harder than the first Owl encounter anymore. Both great fights, easily among best in game.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2020 at 9:31 PM
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  5. Tim the Bore Educated

    Tim the Bore
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    Huh, that would be quite similiar to Bloodborne and Dark Souls. In Bloodborne the best ending is the one in which the Hunter managed to combine rational (Byrgenwerth) with irrational (the Healing Church) by eating... something. Metaphorically. In DS 3 the best ending is to reject both linking and dimming the flame - and steal it instead.

    Nice find.
     
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  6. Silva Arcane

    Silva
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    Yeah, makes sense. It seems there's a dualist conflict at the heart of each game. In Souls and Bloodborne this is more apparent though, Sekiro seems more muddled somehow (or maybe it's my ignorance on Japanese themes).

    Anyway, I'm almost sure a DLC is/was planned at some point. There's too much gaps and absent actors here.
     
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  7. Silva Arcane

    Silva
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    Stuck at Father Owl. Must have died 15 or 20 times already.

    BUT I just got how to dodge his firecrackers.

    His end is near.
     
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  8. sullynathan Arcane

    sullynathan
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    Beat Owl after one or two tries
     
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  9. Silva Arcane

    Silva
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    Father (the one in the dream) ?

    Nem fodendo, velho Sully.
     
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  10. Black Angel Arcane

    Black Angel
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    Father Owl is definitely much harder, and yet more fun to fight because he's got more tricks up his sleeve while simultaneously being much more aggressive than Great Shinobi Owl.
     
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  11. sullynathan Arcane

    sullynathan
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    The real one

     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020 at 7:52 AM
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  12. Wunderbar Arcane

    Wunderbar
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    Father Owl is the best boss in the game. Much better than Issin Sword Saint, imo.
     
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  13. Silva Arcane

    Silva
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    Father is down. :salute:

    I advanced the main story and came back to him just before Water Dragon. By then my increased attack power and vitality made the fight more manageable and he went down in 2nd attempt.

    I agree it's best fight in the game. As interesting as Isshin but less obnoxious.
     
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  14. Alphard Educated

    Alphard
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    i think the most fun boss is True Monk. the pacing of the fight is neither too slow or too fast and you can enjoy the dance
     
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  15. cvv Arcane Patron

    cvv
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    Same here. Father and Isshin appeal to hardcore gaymers bc they're the most difficult but for me True Monk and the Kang Kong were way more entertaining.
     
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  16. Black Angel Arcane

    Black Angel
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    I love each and every main bosses for different reasons. Divine Dragon is, to me, the best gimmicky boss they've ever conceived up to date, though I haven't played Demon's Souls so I wouldn't know how DD would measure up against DeS bosses. Sad that most mini bosses are just variants of the firsts you encountered, with the exception of Armored Warrior.

    Which one? The Guardian, or the Headless? I think the latter is much easier, and the Loaded Spear pathetically trivialize the fight. Right before Ashina Depths, his mate on 2nd phase can give some semblance of challenge but nowhere near the degree of Pikachu&Snorlax, but if you spam firecrackers augmented with double damage sugar you could take off his mate before the fight even resume.

    But yeah, still pretty fun to fight.
     
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  17. cvv Arcane Patron

    cvv
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    Yeah I guess it can be called a gimmicky fight - once you crack it you always get it right. I spend close to two hours on the Headless fight first time around but then it clicked and I breezed it. Smashed the double monkeys first try afterwards. On my second run I completely steamrolled both fights. Contrary to, say, Isshin who took me 6 hours in my first run and 4 hours in my 2nd one.
     
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  18. Silva Arcane

    Silva
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    Divine Dragon is cool yeah. But best gimmick fight for me goes to the Folding Screen Monkeys. One of the most creative "fights" From ever did. And the place is beautiful too, in a contemplative way.

    My top 3 bosses would be something like..

    1. Father Owl. The right balance between toughness and pleasure. One of the best From bosses. But as cvv says, it's on the Sister Freide gang so it won't please everyone.

    2. Guardian Ape. The WTF moment when it rises with the head in hand is great. The atmosphere is eerie as fuck, while also having funny bits like the venomous fart. And it accepts a variety of prosthetic tools. Purest fun fight I had in the game.

    3. Lady Butterfly. Once you git gud she kinda loses the appeal but when you're learning it she's awesome. The place feels epic and the fact she's not oversized like most bosses gives her a normalcy I like, making her look like a badass grandma. The Papa Gascoigne of Sekiro.

    .
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    50. Demon of Hate. Worst fight in game. HP sponge + big flailing mass of hit box = Bloodborne, not Sekiro. You're in the wrong game, bro.

    Funny thing I don't like True/Corrupted Monk much. I find the spin-spin-spin thing repetitive and boring. Like a Guitar Hero track that only uses 2 buttons. But maybe I wasn't in the right mood for her. I cheesed both fights, the illusion with snap seeds and the true with firecrackers.
     
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  19. Silva Arcane

    Silva
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  20. Black Angel Arcane

    Black Angel
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    Indeed. I can't comprehend why they even think of putting THAT in the game. Nowadays I just use glitch to kill him if I want the memory, and at the very least shake off a bit of rust by battling the Interior Ministry's soldiers. Otherwise I just ignore him.

    Iirc she only do the spin2win move as Corrupted, and only during her 3rd phase as True. I have to say discovering the trick to instakill her on her 2nd phase on my own was some of the best experience I've ever had.
     
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  21. TheSentinel Arcane

    TheSentinel
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    [​IMG]
     
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