Shadowrun Shadowrun: Dragonfall - Director's Cut

[Lhynn]

I strongly disagree with Wasteland 2 combat being better then Dragonfalls. I even disagree with the statement that it's more complex. It's really not. Can you use drones? Use ducts for their movement? Sap enemy APs? Have simultaneous hacking action (however poorly done)? Modify encounter difficulty/enemy composition/reinforcement arrival/interval by in-game choices and use of skills? Use spells, summons, adept powers, totems?

In theory its fairly complex, in practice you use your cooldowns and hit things. Thats all there is to dragonfalls combat.
I found myself doing the exact same thing each fight, from start to end. And i mean this literally, buff-hit-end fight.
Even the only real challenging fight, the three way one came down to moving to a safer spot and murdering everything while they murder eachother. It was a nice change of pace but it was still roughly the same.
Character building is definitely more varied in dragonfall, but you are still basically picking your one trick to repeat through the whole game.

Wasteland 2 on the other hand rewards positioning a lot more. While there is not much complexity on the weapon side of things (just use sniper or assault rifle, anything else is a trap choice), you can get yourself in trouble if you are caught in cross fire. And there are quite a bit of encounters with this kind of thing. You have to actually think about where you go, and while melee is very effective, it is also very risky, so if you have a melee guy you will definitely stop and think throroughly before commiting to a course of action, else you risk actually losing your teammate permanently.

As to the game getting old by california, you have probably played it for a long time by then, and it has been mostly combat, so it speaks to how solid the combat is. It will not win any awards, its average at best, but its certainly better than whatever you can squeeze out of dragonfalls combat. Also while i havent made it to california yet, i have heard its very superior to arizona in terms of design.

Sure, Dragonfall's combat is no rocket science and rather simplistic next to something like Underrail, but it's still miles above anything Wasteland 2 represents.

Wrong. But whatever, you think theres actual depth to PoE when even on the highest difficulty is trivial at best and a bore all the way through.

 

[Haplo]

Eh, I remember the opposite. Namely doing the same in all WL2 encounters. Move, take the rare available cover, then simply focus fire. Melee was also quite effective from what I remember and not that risky if you don't rush in the first round but intercept enemy rushers and then eliminate/flank strugglers.

Admittedly I also quit before California. Think I only had the temple left in Arizona, but couldn't force myself to continue.


Dragonfall at least has various setups developing quite differently and requiring you to adjust your tactics depending on mission/conditions. Sometimes the clock is ticking and you need to rush, sometimes it's better to hunker down and defend while another time you need to split your forces to control certain zones. You need to choose if your mage will stay in cover or risk going out to the open to buff his spells with ley lines. Most missions also include some opportunities to intercept certain enemy systems: turrets, drones or even a combat robot...

 

[Lhynn]

Move, take the rare available cover then simply focus fire. Melee was also quite effective from what I remember and not that risky if you don't rush in the first round but intercept enemy rushers and then eliminate/flank strugglers.

Never fought robots? also snipers be tricky, so can dogs, and heavy gunners are outright dangerous if left alone, and can take a lot of heat before going down. Called shots are good against high level high hp enemies, but not always, and its usually a gamble.
First aid and surgeon skills are important as well.

Dragonfall at least has various setups developing quite differently and requiring you to adjust your tactics depending on mission/conditions. Sometimes the clock is ticking and you need to rush, sometimes it's better to hunker down and defend while another time you need to split your forces to control certain zones.

Just murder whats in front of you using the exact same tactic, buff, shoot, end fight.

You need to choose if your mage will stay in cover or risk going out to the open to buff his spells with ley lines.

No you dont, the buff is never worth it.

Most missions also include some opportunities to intercept certain enemy systems: turrets, drones or even a combat robot...

You can do that in wl2 as well.

 

[baturinsky]

You need to choose if your mage will stay in cover or risk going out to the open to buff his spells with ley lines.

No you dont, the buff is never worth it.

What. Buffs are powerful. Haste worth it always. 0AP buffs worth it always. You can make melee character have twice AP, hit ~50% harder and have light cover for several turns with just @AP worth of buffs.

 

[Cross]

And anyway, it's not like DOS fairs any better in any of the aspects you mentioned. Particularly not in resource management, given that all skills, including healing, cost nothing at all.

Sure, but D:OS' cooldowns seem to be routinely criticized, even just a few posts ago in this thread, and rightfully so. Dragonfall escapes this scrutiny for some reason. They share this aspect, but the mechanics in D:OS allow for much more unpredictable and involved combat scenarios, and it still has traditional consumable items.

I don't exactly disagree with your other points, but here I would actually say it's the other way around: given how small the inventories are, and how few opportunities you usually have to restock during a mission, DF actually has a much more robust resource management than most modern RPGs.

I can't imagine how you could possibly run out of items during a mission and still struggle to finish it. You have three companions, who I believe have half a dozen items each, meaning 18 free items in total, and most missions have only 2-3 encounters. These items are very impactful, ranging from medkits, trauma kits that revive characters, grenades with a powerful AoE effects and even summonable elementals.

Most RPG's are too generous with money, but Dragonfall doesn't avoid that issue so much as it simply skips a step and hands you free items outright.

 

[Lacrymas]

It's made perfectly clear that the companions in the nu-Shadowruns use some of their money from runs (they do get money, too) to buy consumables, so, yes, it does indeed skip a step, but in a logical manner. They also don't get half a dozen items, only Glory gets 5 items because she's a medic. They usually get 3. Since I played DF on the hardest difficulty and with ungimped AI, I routinely used all my consumables, maybe except the trauma kits.

About the buffs - Lhynn means the leyline buff isn't worth it, not buffs in general, which is true.

About the cooldowns - spells don't have a cooldown, you can use them as much as you want, but it drains HP if they aren't "off cd". Drain damage also can't be healed by the Heal spell. Weapon abilities do have them, though.

 

[Lhynn]

Most RPG's are too generous with money, but Dragonfall doesn't avoid that issue so much as it simply skips a step and hands you free items outright.

The bitching and moaning about HK not giving you enough money was unbearable.

 

[orcinator]

In theory its fairly complex, in practice you use your cooldowns and hit things. Thats all there is to dragonfalls combat.

As opposed to WL2 where you just hit things?

Never fought robots? also snipers be tricky, so can dogs, and heavy gunners are outright dangerous if left alone, and can take a lot of heat before going down. Called shots are good against high level high hp enemies, but not always, and its usually a gamble.

So you shoot the thing that is more threatening first, just like how you shoot the high threat enemies in SR first, I have absolutely no clue how you can find WL2's combat to be better when it's so incredibly bare bones. Not that SR's combat is good, but at least they sort of try to have gimmicks (even if most of them fall flat due to the lack of difficulty) compared to WL2 where you just fight trash mobs in an open field over and over and over again.

 

[Lhynn]

As opposed to WL2 where you just hit things?

As oposed to WL2 where navigating the environment is like half the fight.

So you shoot the thing that is more threatening first, just like how you shoot the high threat enemies in SR first, I have absolutely no clue how you can find WL2's combat to be better when it's so incredibly bare bones. Not that SR's combat is good, but at least they sort of try to have gimmicks (even if most of them fall flat due to the lack of difficulty) compared to WL2 where you just fight trash mobs in an open field over and over and over again.

Wl2 combat has crouching, has called shots, has different weapons interacting differently with different armors, doesnt have cooldowns enforcing repetition of tasks. Again, wont win any prizes but it is better than shadowrun by a lot.

 

[Infinitron]

Underrated/underutilized aspect of WL2 combat is the ability to blast away cover. It's a tactically interesting thing, spend action points + ammo to destroy cover to kill enemies quicker, or take pains to conserve it so you can use it yourself? This actually gives shotguns and heavy weapons an extra combat role.

 

[V_K]

DF has a similar mechanic with flanking.

 

[Haplo]

As opposed to WL2 where you just hit things?

As oposed to WL2 where navigating the environment is like half the fight.

Oh come on, you're not serious, are you?
The corridors and rooms in DF are way more interesting and varied then the areas in WL2.

has called shots

It didn't have them when I played it.

has different weapons interacting differently with different armors

Wow, because the armor system in WL2 is sooo good. I guess you mean the energy weapons with reverse penetration? So now we remove armors before combat to avoid taking more damage? Brilliant!

 

[Lhynn]

Oh come on, you're not serious, are you?
The corridors and rooms in DF are way more interesting and varied then the areas in WL2.

Wrong. WL2 fighting areas are more interesting, and actually have shit like height advantage.

It didn't have them when I played it.

Then you probably should go back and replay the game.

Wow, because the armor system in WL2 is sooo good. I guess you mean the energy weapons with reverse penetration? So now we remove armors before combat to avoid taking more damage? Brilliant!

Its better than nothing. And no one is calling wl2 amazing. Im calling it decent, and im calling dragonfalls combat crap.
And it has more to do with enemy composition and how you deal with it than the teams armor.

 

[PEACH]

[...]Dragonfall, on the other hand, has quite limited mechanics, but excellent level and encounter design that makes full use of them.

I like Dragonfall a lot but I don't really agree with the idea that it's anywhere near excellent at either of those things, especially encounter design. I've played through the game twice now and I struggle to come up with even a handful of encounters that were memorable.

On the other hand there are quite a few corridor-oriented segments where you're funneled down hallways from cover to cover as you go against segmented groups of fairly repetitive & nondescript enemies or stay put / take potshots until they come to you and the wave defence encounters weren't any better. I'd say even the limited mechanics are more interesting than the equally limited and clunky encounter design and, if anything, were stifled further by how basic / repetitive / easy a majority of the encounters ultimately were.

It's serviceable for sure, but the idea that Dragonfall's combat is among its highlights kinda surprises me. It has a quaint turn based system with a lot of neat ideas that you pretty much never need to use. As far as I can remember D:OS and WL2 did combat much much better.

 

[aweigh]

Dragonfall (and all 3 SRs for that matter) combat system allows for many more viable builds than WL2 does. I was gonna write a long post about this but accidentally deleted it before posting so imagine it instead please.

 

[Lhynn]

Dragonfall (and all 3 SRs for that matter) combat system allows for many more viable builds than WL2 does.

Sure, i already said this. Means nothing if all you do is pick your one trick and do that for the next 20 hours.

I was gonna write a long post about this but accidentally deleted it before posting so imagine it instead please.

 

[V_K]

[...]Dragonfall, on the other hand, has quite limited mechanics, but excellent level and encounter design that makes full use of them.

I like Dragonfall a lot but I don't really agree with the idea that it's anywhere near excellent at either of those things, especially encounter design. I've played through the game twice now and I struggle to come up with even a handful of encounters that were memorable.

On the other hand there are quite a few corridor-oriented segments where you're funneled down hallways from cover to cover as you go against segmented groups of fairly repetitive & nondescript enemies or stay put / take potshots until they come to you and the wave defence encounters weren't any better. I'd say even the limited mechanics are more interesting than the equally limited and clunky encounter design and, if anything, were stifled further by how basic / repetitive / easy a majority of the encounters ultimately were.

It's serviceable for sure, but the idea that Dragonfall's combat is among its highlights kinda surprises me. It has a quaint turn based system with a lot of neat ideas that you pretty much never need to use. As far as I can remember D:OS and WL2 did combat much much better.

Look, no one is claiming that DF combat is hard. So you are not required to use the opportunities for different approaches built into the levels/encounters - but it doesn't change the fact that there are such opportunities (shafts, matrix points, leylines, summoning points, turrets and cameras, mission-specific terrain features), and in much larger quantities than in most games. In DOS on the other hand, as far as terrain features go, you get some nonsensically placed barrels at best.
Besides, level design is not just about combat encounters, but about options to avoid combat as well. Granted, SR games often make those too easy too, but they are there.

 

[Akratus]

Just finished Dead Man's Switch earlier today as a mage. Now playing Dragonfall as a rigger. Never played one of those before though. Any tips?

 

[Lacrymas]

Just finished Dead Man's Switch earlier today as a mage. Now playing Dragonfall as a rigger. Never played one of those before though. Any tips?

Rigger is extremely straightforward, unfortunately. Pump the drone line and the drones do everything else. I played a rigger through the whole trilogy and didn't find any tricks. Except maybe go to cover before you activate the drones. Drones are immune to buffs. Getting them destroyed makes your character worthless. You don't have enough karma to pump anything else in Dragonfall, so I'd say go for CHA with your extra points, as it will prevent some fights and I think you only need 6 CHA to pass all those checks. Get the suit from The Trial mission. Hong Kong gives you enough karma to be both a rigger and a decker, but I don't think it will work in DF.

 

[Siveon]

Just finished Dead Man's Switch earlier today as a mage. Now playing Dragonfall as a rigger. Never played one of those before though. Any tips?

Pretty easy stuff. Your guy is there to buff your drone, take potshots at small fry, do basic aid on teamates, and not get shot. You want to pump most of your skills into drone combat, and only slightly dabble in small other stuff like weapon skills (only one gun max) and maybe cyberware. You want health too so you don't die when you inevitably get hit.

If you want, I also recommend being a decker too, and just not fight in real life at all. Go into cyberspace while your two drones reign terror. Don't bother with guns at all.

 

[aweigh]

A fun build in Dragonfall is katana-wielding Qi-casting fucker, able to sprint/haste around the map and buff people and himself.

The real MVP tip though is: be sure to talk to everyone because Dragonfall dialog is fucking great and it's one of the few RPGs in the last decade where you will look foward to clicking on an NPC instead of dreading the coming text dump! Even extremely minor throw-away NPCs that only appear once are memorable, which is something that can't be said for most other games (including DMS/HK).

 

[Akratus]

Thanks for the tips guys. I'll have to wait and see if rigger turns out to be at least as fun as a mage in DMS.

 

[Jason Liang]

In theory its fairly complex, in practice you use your cooldowns and hit things. Thats all there is to dragonfalls combat.
I found myself doing the exact same thing each fight, from start to end. And i mean this literally, buff-hit-end fight.
Even the only real challenging fight, the three way one came down to moving to a safer spot and murdering everything while they murder eachother. It was a nice change of pace but it was still roughly the same.
Character building is definitely more varied in dragonfall, but you are still basically picking your one trick to repeat through the whole game.

First of all it's common knowledge that if you aren't an RPG novice, you should play Dragonfall with ungimped AI.

If you find that too easy or repetitive, you can always increase the challenge by taking less party members on the runs, or even trying the game solo. I guarantee that will push you to develop a variety of tactics. Even playing the game without poor Dietrich, who basically is a buff/ heal bot the whole game, really changes your tactics.

I'm not sure which "three way" fight you're talking about in Dragonfall ~ you seem to be confusing this with Hong Kong. There are plenty of interesting encounters in Dragonfall. Without spoiling too much, both Glory and Blitz's personal missions have good, nasty fights. The Blitz fight probably has my vote for the hardest fight the whole game, especially if you get caught off-guard.

 

[agris]

Full use of them? You're talking about a game where enemy AI was deliberately gimped to never use their full AP's for attacking.

If only there was a mod that removed this limitation.

 

[Cross]

Full use of them? You're talking about a game where enemy AI was deliberately gimped to never use their full AP's for attacking.

If only there was a mod that removed this limitation.

And if that mod had existed when I played the game, I would have gladly used it. Even then, it hardly remedies all the other issues I had with the game.

It also doesn't change the fact that the game was designed around that artificial limitation. It's one thing to say, lower the attribute and skill levels of certain enemies, it's another thing to make gameplay systems asymmetrical so that they always grant the player characters inherent advantages, in particular, the ability to attack at least twice as much as the enemy by default, which is an enormous advantage, It speaks volumes about Harebrained's priorities.