So how's Darghul coming along?

[Macadaciouse]

Holy hell dude, that's amazing! I can't imagine you've been doing this JUST for your health, so on behalf of everyone I think we'd all like to say thanks for the MINDBLOWING amount of work, thought and ingenuity that you have obviously put into this. Give the folks at Bethesda Softworks a call, they need you for the next Elder Scrolls game (don’t know if that’s as big out of America as it is here, super advanced open-style game structured like DARGHUL but to be honest, with fewer features)

 

[Elwro]

Hey, leave Wolf alone - indie gaming needs MORE people like him, not less! :wink:

 

[Wolf Mittag]

Well, thank you all! Obviously, I wouldn't mind selling a good number of full versions when I finally release DARGHUL, and naturally I'll be very happy if it's well received and many people enjoy it.

However, of course it does have lots of weaknesses. It remains a minimum budget, indie production, with far below average graphics, music and sound. I hope it will excel in several aspects (game depth, freedom of action, level of detail, among others) - but overall, I don't think it can compare to anything Bethesda produces (and it would be against the laws of nature if it could, given that DARGHUL is mostly a one-man project with only a fraction of the resources (man hours, capital, technology) of a large company).

(But regardless of how it compares to other games, and whether it's successful or not, I find doing this kind of work extremely enjoyable. It's both creative and technical. It allows one to employ a very broad range of one's skills and not just a limited, specialized part. And there's a concrete result to what one is doing. It's really rewarding in itself.)

- Training your strength: Thanks for this, Igor. I like this idea. And it'd take just a couple of minutes to implement - basically, one more icon in the actions menu, and a few stats to compute.
However, actually using this feature should be optional, since I suppose many players (myself included) would find it bothersome to have to manually make their character do physical exercises every day. (This goes back to the old discussion of manual eating, drinking etc: As you know, personally I prefer these things to be dealt with automatically, and kept in the background.) Now, while those willing to invest the time should be able to enhance their strength via regular (manually activated) exercise, those unwilling shouldn't be forced to do this; i.e., you should definitively still be able to finish the game with just the naturally occuring strength growth.
(BTW, I've also added a number of trainers who offer you training sessions against money, which will increase (depending of course on who you are training with) a number of your skills.)

- Exhausted mines: It's very unlikely you'll ever run out of raw materials, since there are around 150 caves with some mineable materials. And particularly coal or iron deposits are usually very large and will last for many months or years of game time. Mostly it's just the rare materials like precious metals or gems that exist in small quantities.
Anyway, even if you exhausted all possible mines, you could still have your caravans buy many kinds of materials in the villages. And the merchants in the cities will always have finished goods for sale. (The game world's economy is based on the premise that the craftsmen in the cities already had suppliers before you entered the mining business, and will continue to do so afterwards.)

 

[Wolf Mittag]

Some more additions/improvements:

- Journal: Whenever someone tells you something important, or you read something important, it is automatically written (quoted) into your Journal. So e.g. when someone describes you the way to some place, and you forget, you needn't return to the person and start the dialog all over again; rather, you can simply look up the description in your Journal.
(In addition to this, the Quests Notebook, which lists all current quests that you know of, remains available.)

- Viewing Text: I've improved the user interface. Most text is now displayed in a vertical papyrus scoll; you can use your mouse wheel for scrolling; and there's now a proper scroll bar and elevator, which makes it easy to access a particular text passage very quickly.

- Dragons: What was missing so far was a really tough opponent. Dragons are large (2x2 tiles), fight with fireballs, and are extremely hard to defeat (basically, only by stab/torso or grapple,stab/eye in close combat - if you survive that far).

- Gambling: You can now bet money on a game of dice, with different odds (e.g. odd/even 1:2 or single number 1:6) and different amounts. It's cheat-proof insofar as loading a saved game and trying again if you've lost a bet won't work.
It's actually quite entertaining, since the odds are such that you can't Martingale your way to guaranteed wins (i.e., doubling down after losing a bet usually doesn't work because there's a betting limit and there's a high risk of getting a series of losses large enough to bankrupt you before a win comes up once again). Keeping your wins, i.e. betting only half of what you've won and then quitting if you lose, works better. But regardless of your strategy, you can never tell in advance with how much (or little) money you'll end up with at the end of the evening.

- Combat: Out of curiosity, I did a lot of research. Among others, Rex Applegate's Kill or Get Killed, several medieval-age fencing manuals, several books on knife fighting, some stuff by Fairbairns on close combat and assassination, some First Aid and Army Training manuals, and whatever I could find on the Internet. Also, personally, I used to do some Judo, and I'm somewhat familiar with other kinds of unarmed or armed self-defense or offensive techniques. Also, I'm very familiar with using machetes and axes (though not on humans or Orcs, but rather, for the peaceful pastime of gardening. Still...). After digesting all and thinking it over, what I've come up with is this:
The combat system remains turn-based, with one turn consisting of your attack (which you execute manually) and your opponent's defense, and your opponent's attack and your defense (which gets executed automatically).
1) You can Attack: Stab, slash, feign, distract, kick, grapple, hand blow, elbow blow, dirty tricks, change equipment, wait.
Stab/Slash head/torso/legs remain available by simply clicking once on your opponent (on mouse-over, a small target window is displayed, and a click on e.g. the head will make you execute a slashing attack on your opponent's head; or a click on the right side of the head field, a stabbing attack).
All other modes of attack (including stab/slash with more targets) are available via menu, where, after selecting the mode of attack, you'd select a specific target.
Some attack modes (like e.g. Stab Heart or Chin Jab or Eye Gouge) are only available when you are grappling with an enemy (which requires executing Attack Menu/Grapple with Opponent in a previous turn), and/or are equipped with a suitable weapon (e.g. dagger for stabbing while grappling; or generally, sword or dagger for stabbing).
The results will depend not just on your and your opponent's skills and equipment, but also on your opponent's current posture or action (e.g. Feign Leg Attack -> opponent lowers his shield to counter, leaving his head less protected -> you follow up with Stab/Head; or you select Slash/Head, accepting a higher risk of yourself getting stabbed in your chest or face, for the higher chance of causing a lot of damage if you hit your opponent).
2) You can Pre-Select your Attack Style: Balance between Attack - Defense (e.g. cautious attack without too much power, or reckless attack with little chance of defending against a counter attack), and Force - Accuracy.
3) You can Pre-Select your Reaction: Shield/Dodge/Parry (automatic; default), Shield, Dodge, Parry, Stab Head/Torso/Leg, Slash Sword Arm, Kick Knee/Groin, Sidestep/Trip, Grapple. When: Next Turn, Enemy slashes, Enemy Stabs.
So e.g. in order to initiate Grappling, it would make sense not to blindly rush onto your opponent (as can be done via Attack Menu/Grapple Now; high risk of getting stabbed), but rather, to wait until your opponent provides you an opening by e.g. raising his axe in preparation of executing a Slash attack (your choice: Preselect Reaction: When Opponent Slashes, Grapple).
I think this system covers it all. It basically keeps the original simplicity of use (generic attack with a single click on your opponent) while allowing you to choose smarter alternatives when appropriate. Most of this system is already in place; presently, I'm trying to wrap it all into a user interface as convenient and unobtrusive as possible.

Of course, I'd be very happy to get some feedback; so if any of you have any comments or thoughts, particularly on the combat system, it'd be very kind if you'd post.

 

[Adam P]

Darghul

Wolf, you are doing a great job. I always hop back over to this forum hoping to see a beta, though disappointed not to see a beta. Always delighted to see a whole new list of features added to the game. Something I've always liked about german produced games as for some reason they seem really good at making intuitive interfaces. Us Americans are really fond of doing all the programming then just throwing the new feature at the bottom of a drop box. But there is a real beauty in having a very advanced, detailed system, all contained in a very simple, easy-to-use interface. I suspect, you will remain true to your reputation in doing this. It seems to be a very over looked aspect of the game, as isnt talked about too much, but boy does it make a huge difference in enjoyability and game-play.

The talk about the strength, personally when i do pushups the first few are easy, the more i do the harder i find it, when im moving bags of concrete the first few bags are pretty light as bag after bag is thrown, those last ones are aweful heavy.
I dont really remember if you have a fatigue system in place, most of these are rather horrible and annoying. Personally im in favor of massive amounts of unnoticed stats just to run numbers in the background, you hardly notice they are there but add more depth to how the character adjusts itself to your gameplay. If I were you, and Im not cuz you are way better than me, lol, I would do it this way:
I would break the strength into two stats, and have a sub/related stat of endurance. Your strength stat would be known as MaxStrength, much like MaxHealth, you would have a second strength variable, CurrentStrength, this would be like your CurrentHealth variable. Your third stat would be Endurance. Anytime Strength is called on as a multiplier or for whatever reason, you would have a couple things happening, max strength would have experience added to it, Strength would have a deduction based on your endurance level. and Endurance would then, have an experience amount added to it. The deduction, should probably be exponential, a greater deduction taken at first but after more and more you still get weaker but at a slower rate.

An example would be... You swing your huge battle axe at an orc. your max strength value is 80 you are already a little fatigued so your current strength variable is 65. 65 experience is added to your max strength experience, or perhaps you add (maxstr-curstr) so you gain more experience during extended amounts of exertion rather than short bursts. You pull your 65 and use it to calculate your damage and accuracy. Strength is reduced by maybe 10% for simplicities sake. so your new strength stat is 58.5. The percentage could be based on the weight of the axe and on the type of attack. Anyway you could play with the numbers until it feels right.

I think this would give a smoother flow to it. It would disable players from spending hours doing tedious pushups so that the can punch a dragon for a one hit kill. But at the same time doesnt have the classic annoyance and cumbersome effect as a fatigue system. The reason for the endurance being a seperate variable is because strength is a little too genearalized, running for hours isnt gonna allow you to pick up a warhammer and deal some major damage, but you would definately last longer or have more 'endurance'. This stat could be used in the same way for traveling, and movement, perhaps for magic as well or other actions, as a broader more associative sub-stat variable. Recovery should be exponential as well, Strength would be recovered quickly at first but then as you approach max strength it would again begin to level off, perhaps only fully recovering at an inn or a nice comfy bed. Again adding realism, fighting better well rested instead of grabbing an apple and squating under a tree for 2 minutes. Here may be another application for endurance, the greater the endurance the faster the recovery.

Sorry for being long winded, and incase anyone is curious why i didnt include variables for experience...

I deal with stats as having them as experience amounts, a running total of experience you have achieved. Use an exponential factor of like x^pi as each "level"'s experience requirement. So then if your Strength = 48,153 you would get the stat value by (Strength^(1/3.14) =30.99 looks like youre about to level up lol. This saves a level up function and a variable and gives a lot more flexibility, you can give a smoother flow between levels by not rounding that number for multipliers. (also works against memory hackers lol)

oh and lol, a treat for your parasite might be a slain enemy, i know it's gruesome but so is a lot of the game lol.

Anyway wolf, im sure you'll do a great job, not worried about that. Stay at it, and I'm still here eagerly awaiting the beta!

 

[Wolf Mittag]

Hi AdamP, thank you for this!

Fatigue (Tiredness):
At present, I'm using the PlayerIsTired variable to deal with fatigue. (The German word for being tired can be used for describing fatigue as well; maybe this is why I didn't differentiate between these.)
Normally, a counter is increased every turn (or twice per turn if you're walking, and so on), resulting in your being tired/very tired at the end of the day. However, during combat, it's increased a good deal more for every action you take (or hit you suffer), resulting in your becoming tired (or even very tired) after 15 or 30 minutes or so of combat.
Being tired will decrease your dexterity and, to a lesser degree, your strength. Some tiredness/exhaustion is no big deal and won't prevent you from winning, but your dexterity will be reduced exponentially the more tired you get.
(So while internally, I'm handling this matter a bit differently from what you discussed above, the overall result is similar.)

Temporary Fatigue:
I like your idea of a gradual, temporary reduction of your strength during bursts of exhausting activity. E.g. after 10 turns of attacking/parrying during combat, your current strength in turn #10 should really be less than what you had in turn #1 (however, after resting a couple of turns, it should be back at its former level).
In other words, this would only deal with your immediate reaction to brief time spans of physical exertion, and would be distinct from your overall Tiredness, which is more a reflection of your overall level of exhaustion over the course of an entire day.

Tiredness reduces DEX and STR:
I think that with activity that does not demand great exertion of strength, loss of dexterity is more noticeable than loss of strength. Of course I fully agree with your observation of carrying cement bags or doing pushups. But I think combat doesn't require that much exertion of physical strength. E.g., in real life, when I've cut down a couple of trees, I could go on using my axe or machete to chop off branches for 8 hours or more without becoming exhausted at all. Of course, combat would be much faster, and extremely stressful, and Adrenaline etc would tend to make you shaky and tired after a while. But again, I think this would have more effect on your dexterity than on your strength, so I'm having your Tiredness reduce your current strength only modestly.

Endurance:
I really like your ideas on this. This is something that was lacking so far. I'll add a proper Endurance skill, and will use your skill level (instead of a constant ratio I used up to now) to determine the amount by which different activities (e.g. fighting, walking, resting, sleeping etc) will increase or decrease your Tiredness (i.e., the greater your Endurance, the longer it'll take until you get tired, and the sooner you'll recover) as well as your Temporary Fatigue (as discussed above).
This would mostly relate to combat- or fatigue- (e.g. walking) related tiredness (since obviously, I'd still want you to automatically become tired enough to be able to go to sleep at the end of each day).
I also like your mechanism for increasing your endurance only through extended periods of activity, and will implement something like this.

Well, so far some of the underlying stats. If anyone has any thoughts/ideas on the more mechanical aspects of combat (modes of attack, your and your enemies' actions and reactions, user interface, etc) - or anything else, for that matter - I'd be grateful for your comments.

 

[Igor]

So how much longer is it going to take? Will we see it before 2009?

 

[Wolf Mittag]

It'll still take a couple of months. Still lots and lots of minor stuff to finish.

As ever, I appreciate your patience...

 

[Higher Game]

Merry Christmas, hopefully we get it next Xmas! :D

 

[ecliptic]

I know how difficult it can be to balance such endeavors with other life responsibilities, so just keep plugging away and I will be a proud owner of this upon release as I was with Teudogar. Best of luck, it sounds awesome!

 

[Gwendo]

Just letting you know I'm looking forward to your game.

 

[Nickos]

Anything new?

 

[Gwendo]

Anything new?

Yes. Happy New Year!

 

[Nickos]

Thanks Damn, i thought that i'll get Darghul 2 on my birthday (23 Jan) Uhh...i shouldn't even think it'll be released so fast

 

[Wolf Mittag]

Well, I did make some good progress over the past couple of weeks. But there still remains a lot of work to do.

And currently I'm preparing to leave Germany for Asia. Organizing everthing for my absence, getting rid of my furniture (including hundreds of books), packing, preparation, paperwork etc etc is fairly time-consuming. So right now, my speed of progress with DARGHUL is even slower than usual.

Nonetheless, of course I will complete this project. And while I'm sorry about how long it takes, I think the result will be pretty good. I really appreciate your patience.

 

[sarial99]

I am simply blown away from the style and depth as well as the care you put into your first game and this newest installment as well. I assure you that that there are people who appreciate historicly based indie games or indpeth ones as shown by a game I followed for a LONG time "Mount and Blade". Otherwise an awesome concept.

 

[Nemolus]

Mount&Blade

Hey, i´m playing Mount&Blade too. A very good game.

I wish you a nice trip to asia Wolf. You seem to be a very busy man *g*. How about a little ingame video from the new Darghul? Or a few more screenshots. A new Homepage with a own forum? Only a few suggestions from me

Greets!

Nemolus

 

[Macadaciouse]

This has to be one of the happiest, most appreciative boards I've ever seen in my life. I haven't seen a single obscene animated jpeg and there aren't any trolls! Wow!
Anyway, don't worry about graphics Wolf; A good game is a good game no matter what it looks like, but all the eye candy in the world won't save a poorly conceived project.
Are you moving to Asia permanently? I remember you taking a few trips there in the past on the strength of the Euro, I'm guessing you enjoyed your stay?

 

[Wolf Mittag]

one of the happiest, most appreciative boards:
That is true. It's amazing. Thank you all for the incredible amount of support and encouragement!

screenshots, video:
I think I ought to finally finish DARGHUL and release a beta asap., so that everyone can see for themselves.
BTW, recently I did some work to make it 100% Vista-compatible (but it's surprising how abysmally bad Windows Vista is; I think that after I've fully completed and released DARGHUL I really need to create Linux versions of all of my software).

Asia:
Well, yes, I don't intend to return to Europe in the forseeable future. Germany's perspective is pretty bad (already more voters living off tax money than private sector net tax payers); I'm sick of the mean-spirited nanny-statism; and several new laws make life very difficult and expensive for any self-employed person who isn't rich.
Meanwhile, Asia is by far the most dynamic and exciting region on Earth - the only one that is consistantly moving forward and becoming more prosperous and civilized. People who don't travel much are usually unaware of how much the West has declined (culturally, socially, and economically), and how amazingly good the quality of life in China and other Asian countries has become (and I mean not just the material aspect).
Yet due to the currency exchange rate, a Westerner with some Western money is still quite wealthy compared to the locals. (And as a White man, you additionally still enjoy a pretty positive image in most countries.) Now, I'm not saying the West is all bad; but it's become 3rd-rate while still charging 1st-class prices. In comparison, Asia is the bargain of a lifetime.

Anyway, even though I'm in the midst of moving, I always find time in between for continuing my work on DARGHUL, and will complete the damn thing as soon as I can.

 

[getter77]

Congrats on the move and Vista wranglings on Darghul. If all works well with the Vista compatibility, would that bode well for Windows 7 compatibility as well?

 

[Nickos]

It's great to hear ya', Wolf! I wonder if you will make any other game after finishing Darghul 2...

 

[Durwyn]

Keep up the good work ! I really look forward to Darghul. It should have more hype on the internets.

 

[Wolf Mittag]

Vista / Windows 7:
It should run on Windows 7 without problems. Win7's basic architecture is the same as Vista, and it works without problems on Vista. (Btw even the very first Teudogar version runs on Vista, and of course on XP and even on Windows 98; my style of programming seems to be fairly compatible). (What I'd be curious to know is if anyone who uses Linux has gotten Teudogar to run using WINE or some other Windows-emulator?)
Of course with Microsoft, you can never tell in advance what they'll do to you. Maybe Win7's DirectX won't support the video mode DARGHUL currently uses, or the function DARGHUL uses to output MP3s may have become unavailable and so on. But these would be minor glitches easy to fix - if necessary, I'd release an update patch and that would be it.

make any other game after finishing Darghul 2
Sure. I have an almost-complete Boulder-Dash game sitting on my PC - a remade and improved version of an MSDOS game I wrote in the late 1980s (seriously, it's actually pretty good). And I intend to create an actual DARGHUL II (the one I'm currently working on is just a remake, so it's basically still DARGHUL I, even though it's got a new engine). And sometime (probably around 2035 as far as I know myself...) I'm determined to turn Teudogar into a proper Trilogy: Part 2 (The Roman Rule) and Part 3 (Rebellion Against Rome) are still missing, after all.

hype:
It seems to be true that most people won't try something they haven't yet heard about. When Teudogar was initially released, few people even bothered to download the free Demo. It seems that interest in that game really only got started when word of mouth had spread.
On the other hand, so far the hype for DARGHUL has to led to hordes of angry would-be users, still waiting futilely for the promised game to be released. And after having their expectations raised, many will probably feel disappointed when they finally get to play it. So in a way, I think it's probably a double-edged sword.

 

[Adam P]

awesome

Sounds awesome! Good luck on your move! Be safe and let us know how it goes!

 

[Nickos]

Crap, more than a month passed and still no news! What's going on?