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So i just finished AoD

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,825
What are some complex games according to you?

Most sim games with big databases, like sport games, are fairly complex, especially management games.

But if you are talking RPGs, the genre as a whole can be beaten by a 12 year old with a lot of free time.

I think you inverted the numbers here.
I think you are sperging here. Try to get your autism checked, it may be harmful to you and others.

Ye, except I called it degenerate. Funny you dodged haste
Again confusing difficulty for complexity. Because you are so retarded you may have a brain tumor and dont know it.

You wrote about class progression, that level up stats matter in IE games. Now you agree that they don't, thanks.
They matter. Saving throws are one of the most important things in the game, and leveling up is important to keep you from being affected by effects all the time, many of them lethal.
But you conflate shit because you are a retarded shill that cant make a decent argument to save his life.

You are probably conflating the IE games with P&P AD&D, dunno how else you could believe this BS
The spell system at level 1 is already more complex than anything AoD throws at you, what the fuck are you even talking about?

Ye, you have to look at a spellbook filled with 100 spells, and identify the 10% which isn't garbage. Such complexity!
It takes a long time, its a very indepth system where a lot of aparently garbage spells have amazing applications. Spells like chromatic orb, or some of the fog spells, that look largely useless at high level, can be used with tremendous results.

Sure dude, I play games other than RPGs too. I also play&enjoy RPGs with little character development options, nothing wrong with that, but why defend that as something good/desired?
Min/Maxing isnt interesting unless the whole game is about minmaxing in creative, interesting and complex ways. AoD system offers fuck all.

If there aren't (hard) choices, what's the point of having a system in the first place?
Difficulty is very subjective, the entire crafting system in arcanum is completely unnecesary, but its hailed as one of the most enjoyable systems in the genre. Because its very well designed and very fun to interact with.

Ofc it didn't force a hard choice on you, you used AddSP(200) :obviously:
Actually i had no choice in the playthrough when i didnt have the 200 SP, having those extra points actually gave me a choice, so your argument falls flat once again.

I think you might have reading issues.
No u.
 
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Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,825
Which genres and games does this not apply to?
Generally? i guess logical puzzle games. Some grand strategy crap, and a few sims that go to an autistic degree of simulationism.


Dude has a channel where he analyzes some complex games that require hours to go through the documentation before you can get comfortable with the game. Definitely designed for people with a higher degree of capacity for abstract thought.
I find his voice so lethargic that i watch his videos when i need to calm myself.
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,432
What are some complex games according to you?

Most sim games with big databases, like sport games, are fairly complex, especially management games.

But if you are talking RPGs, the genre as a whole can be beaten by a 12 year old with a lot of free time.

I think you inverted the numbers here.
I think you are sperging here. Try to get your autism checked, it may be harmful to you and others.

Ye, except I called it degenerate. Funny you dodged haste
Again confusing difficulty for complexity. Because you are so retarded you may have a brain tumor and dont know it.

You wrote about class progression, that level up stats matter in IE games. Now you agree that they don't, thanks.
They matter. Saving throws are one of the most important things in the game, and leveling up is important to keep you from being affected by effects all the time, many of them lethal.
But you conflate shit because you are a retarded shill that cant make a decent argument to save his life.

You are probably conflating the IE games with P&P AD&D, dunno how else you could believe this BS
The spell system at level 1 is already more complex than anything AoD throws at you, what the fuck are you even talking about?

Ye, you have to look at a spellbook filled with 100 spells, and identify the 10% which isn't garbage. Such complexity!
It takes a long time, its a very indepth system where a lot of aparently garbage spells have amazing applications. Spells like chromatic orb, or some of the fog spells, that look largely useless at high level, can be used with tremendous results.

Sure dude, I play games other than RPGs too. I also play&enjoy RPGs with little character development options, nothing wrong with that, but why defend that as something good/desired?
Min/Maxing isnt interesting unless the whole game is about minmaxing in creative, interesting and complex ways. AoD system offers fuck all.

If there aren't (hard) choices, what's the point of having a system in the first place?
Difficulty is very subjective, the entire crafting system in arcanum is completely unnecesary, but its hailed as one of the most enjoyable systems in the genre. Because its very well designed and very fun to interact with.

Ofc it didn't force a hard choice on you, you used AddSP(200) :obviously:
Actually i had no choice in the playthrough when i didnt have the 200 SP, having those extra points actually gave me a choice, so your argument falls flat once again.

I think you might have reading issues.
No u.

  • Which game can't be beaten by a 12 year old with lots of free time?
  • Nah dude, you said 90% of encounters have mages, it's nowhere near that. Why bother replaying with lies?
  • Casting haste and right clicking is complex, according to you?
  • You mentioned ThAC0 yourself, which is a bad example. Now you see your error and move the goal to ST, which is also capable (but harder unless shorty) with starting SoA XP
  • The only part with depth is the counter magic system. Nobody thinks chromatic orb is garbage and it's funny you bless Greater Malison + Chromatic orb cheese.
  • How do you go from character development options to min maxing? Dunno, I had fun planning out characters in AoD so they can grab all optional content
  • How is it unnecessary when the entire technological alignment (core part of system/lore) depends on crafting? It's one of the fundamentals of Arcanum and the most fun part of the game. Just WTF dude.
  • You can play better instead of cheating, just look at Jason's posts about the 1/1 builds, plenty of leftover SP there.
  • No u
 

Sòren

Arcane
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
2,350
i played the game again during the last few weeks...actually with four different characters. i thought it was great and probably exactly the rpgcodex definition of a proper rpg (doesn't mean that i think highly of the properties that are attributed to that though). great choice & consequence, no jack of all trades pcs, very tactical combat (except for teleporting which artifically affected the positioning), skill checks, etc.
the game is not properly balanced for all builds tho, i got like a hundred surplus skill points for my thief (since you don't need much more than 6/6/6 for steal/lockpick/sneak in the whole game...maybe a bit more lockpick, but just if you care enough about some stupid boxes in endgame areas and fourty thieves has a lot less combat encounters) and still could max out crafting and lore. i couldn't dream about so many skill points with my praetor or imperial mercenerary. also prior lore knowloedge of your pc has no influence on future dialouge options ("what the gods need bodies????" yes, you retard, that's what oyu have seen in the abyss and in the mountain monasteries secret chamber), even some AAA ARPEEGEES did that better.
the writing is not bad, but the narrative lacks any emotional component. the npcs you are dealing with are not boring, but they aren't memorable as well.

i still think it's a way better rpg (again codex definition) than Fallout 1 or 2 or most other "classics".
 

Jason Liang

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
8,337
Location
Crait
Hardcore_games_s_564.png

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Earn_Your_Fun

Sums up my issues with AoD. https://allthetropes.org/wiki/It's_Easy,_So_It_Sucks


https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Game_Breaker

Also, https://allthetropes.org/wiki/The_Age_of_Decadence <---- old
 
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Big Wrangle

Guest
He has rejoined the thread once again to grant us... TV Tropes plagiarists.

Sadly, not worth the wait. :(
 

the_shadow

Arcane
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
1,179
I finished it recently too.

I started off with a talker/lore character, and got frustrated by how you still couldn't access a lot of content without combat unless you leveled up other unrelated non-combat skills. I found myself conserving 80 skills points just to level up unrelated skills when I hit an encounter I couldn't otherwise pass. So I went the combat route and... had a blast. I was a bit lacking in lore, so I couldn't discover a lot of the secrets behind the old tech you find lying around, but in a way that's a good thing because it preserved the mystery and kept me thinking. Now that I've got a handle on how the combat system works and have some meta-knowledge I might try with a lore PC and see what I missed.

I'm not sure if they ever touted the game as a spiritual successor to the original Fallout, but it reminds me of it.
 

Black

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
1,872,592
Here's a guy new to the game, critical of some things but generally has fun.
 

Swampy_Merkin

Learned
Possibly Retarded
Joined
Mar 7, 2018
Messages
478
Location
Up Yours!
Holy crap...Someday when I graduate from actual graduate school, I might look back on this moment in cRPG history and try to justify trying to beat AoD again.

But....I doubt it.

Seriously. Who needs that kind of sadistic bullshit unless you actually do live in your grandma-ma's whiskey cellar?
 

the_shadow

Arcane
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
1,179
Holy crap...Someday when I graduate from actual graduate school, I might look back on this moment in cRPG history and try to justify trying to beat AoD again.

But....I doubt it.

Seriously. Who needs that kind of sadistic bullshit unless you actually do live in your grandma-ma's whiskey cellar?

I've beaten the game. If I can beat it, it's not *that* hard.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
11,760
Holy crap...Someday when I graduate from actual graduate school, I might look back on this moment in cRPG history and try to justify trying to beat AoD again.

But....I doubt it.

Seriously. Who needs that kind of sadistic bullshit unless you actually do live in your grandma-ma's whiskey cellar?
possibly_retarded.png


24884.jpg


:M :M :M
 

Garrafào

Barely Literate
Joined
Jun 20, 2018
Messages
4
Replaying the game, i really like it,the only downside is that the (amazing)lore is not developed further.
i liked the intrigue part of the game but the lore of the old days is fucking amazing, i wish they would write a book about it.
 

HeatEXTEND

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
3,933
Location
Nedderlent
First of all it wasnt exactly a propa playthrough, i actually gave myself like 4 extra attribute points to have stats for future skillchecks and like 200 skillpoints to be good in civics to avoid missing a lot of shit in the game.

Min/Maxing isnt interesting unless the whole game is about minmaxing in creative, interesting and complex ways. AoD system offers fuck all.

:thumbsup:
 

Black

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
1,872,592
Another thing, say I have a Critical Strike check to pass. Does the game check for my total CS rating or just how many points I have in it?
 

AbounI

Colonist
Patron
Joined
Dec 2, 2012
Messages
1,050
Another thing, say I have a Critical Strike check to pass. Does the game check for my total CS rating or just how many points I have in it?
The game only check your skill level
 
Joined
May 4, 2017
Messages
629
Can someone tell me if there is a way to flee from the ordu pass? Because I was said it is possible but I couldn't understand if I was trolled or not.
 

Sòren

Arcane
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
2,350
Can someone tell me if there is a way to flee from the ordu pass? Because I was said it is possible but I couldn't understand if I was trolled or not.

as an imperial guards soldier or as an aurelian? and at which point of the quest?
 

the_shadow

Arcane
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
1,179
Replaying the game, i really like it,the only downside is that the (amazing)lore is not developed further.
i liked the intrigue part of the game but the lore of the old days is fucking amazing, i wish they would write a book about it.

I just finished two replays in the past two days (with a diplomatic merchant and a stealth/diplo thief), and I agree about the lore. It's one of the few games I've actually read and enjoyed the backstory and mysteries. I never realized how much stuff I missed on my first playthrough, I didn't even know that you could
find two more Gods apart from Thor-Agoth.
My only real issue with the game is that Ganezzar is a bit sparse compared to the first two cities.
 

epeli

Arcane
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
719
Hello, is this the place where dirty casuals (playthroughs<7) shit on AoD? Ok, I'm gonna write down some of that before I forget everything. Gonna be a tl;dr post, I might have some fringe opinions that aren't among the common criticisms.

I absolutely loved the demo I tried. It showed a very solid and promising foundation for an RPG with no modern game design hindrances. But in hindsight, combat in the full game was a bit disappointing because the combat system wasn't developed much further. The gameplay part of your character's development was lacking, since you essentially had the same set of active combat abilities from start to end. Stat growth and different enemies changed how they're best used, yes, but being limited to the same moveset through the entire game does not keep combat interesting for long, even if said movesets are well designed as was the case in AoD. (I didn't fully try all of them, though.) Then there were also combat consumables, expanding your options from the basic attack sets. But, well, it was quite clean-cut and obvious what to use and when, so they didn't actually add that many options. And with the numbers of fights and available consumables, a knowledgeable player could pre-plan consumable use for his next playthrough, probably down to every single instance of it - some might like that sort of thing, but to me it is indicative of too tightly controlled item economy and/or lack of content.

I'm sure most codex grognards, myself included, enjoyed how tightly balanced the combat system was. Good difficulty with small tolerances due to carefully controlled number of skillpoints & items and equally tightly defined combat encounters. All this shows hard work and dedication, which is respectable, but in hindsight I wouldn't say any of those are intrinsic values of good singleplayer CRPG combat design. Better suited for competitive multiplayer games. And by that I don't mean AoD's combat system is good for multiplayer, but its focus on balancing befits competitive MP. (Back in the heyday of MMORPGs I would have loved to play one with PvP balanced by AoD's team - balance in those games was always shit in the areas that AoD handles extremely well.) Maybe it's just me, but I imagine that developing the combat system further to make the mechanical side of character development more satisfying that slightly tweaking hit chances would've resulted in a better game, even if that was done at the cost of less difficulty/balance polishing. I also don't remember the AI ever doing anything that left a positive impression (no negatives either), but that was more or less expected with the combat actions available and the focus on man to man melee fights.

Skimming through this thread I noticed a shitposter who mentioned control-freak devs. I'm gonna say he's got a good and often overlooked point. I can't give concrete examples of what makes it so, but one major difference between AoD and more enjoyable RPGs is player freedom. Everything from story to combat felt very tightly choreographed and calculated with very little - if any - room for emergent gameplay. One way to put it to words would be this: There are many choices, but none of them are yours. They're Iron Tower's choices. Don't remember where I heard that, but it wasn't codex. In a weird juxtaposition AoD had the most branching story ever, yet it felt very.. uhm, railroaded? Linear? Welp, that doesn't adequately convey what I mean, but I hope the idea came through somewhat intact.

Can't have a post like this without a paragraph on the infamous dialog teleports, so: The game world lacked cohesion. Dialog teleports were but a small part of the problem. What's realistically doable is always limited, but there has to be something between distant major locations other than a click on a map/dialog node. Something to convey (preferably through gameplay, let players experience it through their actions) that the world is more than a handful of disconnected areas. On the world scale of AoD, an overworld map a la Fallout is probably the best way to implement this without creating ridiculous amount of (often superfluous) content. Even if exploration wasn't a design focus, there are limits to how completely it can be ignored in an RPG. Out of all things, I'm going to point at the lack of world cohesion as the main reason why people disparagingly call AoD a CYOA book. There's some good worldbuilding, but the physical world space is just isn't there.

All in all AoD didn't turn out to be a personal favorite. It's good for what it is. Played it a few times when it came out before interest declined, a couple runs short of the magical meme seven times. I got into AoD for its no-dumbed-down-crap attitude and promising combat, but the most enjoyable part of the game ended up being discovering the underlying mysteries of its very well done setting and seeing some of the story events unfold from many different perspectives. The crazy amount of branching was unique, but AoD is also a good example of why no other game ever did that. Everything else suffers if too much development focus is put into it.

Lastly, few notes on the less important stuff. Assets: 2D art was absolutely gorgeous (potraits, icons, UI), 3D ranged from serviceable to shit (both meshes and textures, mostly meshes), animations were good, music was fitting. Don't remember a single thing about sounds, so they were unintrusive and unremarkable. Crafting was the bad kind of crafting: tacked-on addition instead of a well developed core system. However, that didn't bother me since the game was already extremely barebones outside combat and dialog. Ditching the crafting systems wouldn't have been a bad thing in the sense that everything they did could've been integrated into the game through other means, but that would have diminished character development choices and made the gameplay even more barebones.

In conclusion, it was like a combat system was perfected in excel and tons of dialog writing/scripting was done, but somehow the game underneath them was forgotten. Forgive the vagueness of this retrospect, it's been years since I touched the game.

My professional background is sales & management. The former gave me a good perspective on realistic conversations as essentially I talked for a living, the latter gave me a first-hand experience with corporate politics, scheming, plotting, backstabbing, and power grabs. All the fun of decadence.

Ha, that certainly explains why the world of AoD is full of unlikable assholes. Hopefully that contemporary corporate cunt culture is better thematical fit for a colony ship.
 

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