So, is the end finally here?

The difference between an rpg and an adventure is the character development aspect. That is the defining element of rpgs.

Adventure games don't need complex combat systems or stat systems, or any system at all - ones that do have it are called hybrids, like elvyra from way back. The dialog can be complex, but like rpgs in most cases it is realy pretty linear and not super complex.

 

Making an adventure game is harder than it would initially seem (making ANY game is very difficult). Pure adventure games have puzzles, and putting together enough with significant variation can be difficult. Plus, working on an adventure game for several months to years, trying to create the appropriate clues is tough, as you can't really think like an unitiated player, and making them too obscure will frustrate a lot of players. Takes a lot of thought and balancing. If you have an old-school adventure game, you've got to have a language parser, which is something most RPGs don't have. Every game type has its own intricacies that make it difficult in its own way.

Excluding the graphics portion of games, RPGs aren't really any harder to make that any other moderately complex game. The main deal with them is the sheer amount of content that needs to be produced in order to create one of even moderate length, plus the fact you usually need to do an inordinate amount of testing and balancing. Someone described CRPGs as simply a pretty interface for a database, which is completely accurate.

A huge congratulations to anyone that manages to complete any game, as it is a significant task. And by completing, I'm talking about all the frontend stuff, documentation, testing, and all the other polish that usually takes even longer than the actual game, which most people don't enjoy doing.

 

A simple language parser is not hard, and there are many available.

A crpg is more complex. A good way to show this is to simply look at the interface, which is a good way to measure software complexity - and in itself is a huge task to program for more complex games. The interface for an adventure game is very simple. The interface for most rpgs is very complex. Even a bonehead one like oblivion has a more complex interface than most strategy games. A really complicated rpg with a sophisticasted game system can have an interface more complex that virtually any off the shelf software. Not only lots of screens, but lots of screens with very complex interaction going on int hem in most cases.

To make a *good* rpg you also need a good game system. How many good, original game systems have EVER been put into RPGs? That is one reason most rpgs are licensed - you have a proven system that isn't braindead to work with. The system itself can take YEARS to tweak, which is why even games that don't license a system tend to steal from systems like gurps (fallout) or tunnels and trolls (wasteland) or of course DnD. The ones that don't which I can think of all have simplistic, shitty systems - the only exceptions being a few really old school games that *started* simplistic and shitty but evolved over time.

Even once the system is complete, your game still isn't balanced. You have to carefully do this through playtesting etc., and any change to your system throws off this work. With an adventure game you don't have to do this. You just have to test your quest logic, and in most cases the puzzles are all virtually standalone. At worst you may have to do some simple dialog changes to reflect a few ingame choices.

The comment about databases is completely meaningless, and applies no more to crpgs than any other game.

In any good rpg there will also be puzzles and such similar to an adventure game, though not as numerous. For puzzles most of them fall under various archetypes, so it is largely a matter of repackaging them, and if one of them sucks then unlike in rpgs you can simply take it out or put something else in at the last moment if playtesters think it's stupid.

So in summary, no.

 

4 years ago you still had hope. Right now as I surf through future releases there is absolutely nothing.

 

Well, not exactly nothing.
We have AoD and... uhm, AoD.

Ah, screw this, I say we shut the fucking place down already.
Well, no, not really, as it's part of my daily entertaiment - but really, talking about old games and trying to analize what's wrong with the modern ones with not even the indie market looking too promising - that's no sustainable base for a community like this one.

FFS, the two last "big" topics I remember where a fake interview and a ban vote. Woah

 

Are you actually still playing RPGs? All RPGs I know of I've played to death. All I do here is bask in nostalgia of olden times and exchange furporn.
There is no hope. AoD sounds like fun. More pressure for VD. I hope it has a big foozle called Woll-Urn that you can't kill, only banish to another dimension for a week, but evil forces free him much sooner than that.

 

As I told you yesterday, I essentially don't play that many games at all anymore. I was never a RPG only kind of guy, just someone who loves games that draw you in and give your head something to do once in a while. Yes, I always enjoyed being immersed into a game, long before the word immersion became the joke it is today.

That being said, I spend a lot more time reading up on new games, discussing old ones or trying to find that one retro gem I might have missed than I spend actually playing. Every once in a while I'll stumble upon a game that actually makes me want to play, followed by me playing the living shit out of it for a while - but with great gaming experience combined with a trend towards progressively shorter games comes the tendency to finish a game really fast.

Actually that might be part of the problem already. Most games nowadays seem to be all about "finishing" them. I seem to remember a time when they were actually about beating the game despite the odds being stacked against you. It was something to be proud of, in a geeky way, and something that made me come back for more.

You know what game I've played the most in the last week?
Arkanoid. Yes, fucking Arkanoid. On the cellphone.
On the cellphone, taking turns with my girlfriend while watching tv or going somewhere by train. Oh, and Doom RPG. Nope, not a RPG by codex definition, but it has guns, zombies, stats and it's turnbased - that's more than enough for me right now, seeing how I don't perceive it as raping a beloved franchise at the very same time.

See, it's not only the Rpgs. Sure, we're especially screwed with that right now, more so than any other genre, possibly counting out space sims. If you're a strategy buff or like yourself a good simulation or even tycoon game, you're pretty out of look, too. But hey, yeah, at least there IS actually hope in that genres, I'll give that much.

Have a look at this this thread from abandonia. (ed: No, I'm not the OP nor did I reply)

Many a reply follows.

So, in essence, I doubt I'm a gamer anymore. I'm some kind of unholy gaming zombie that roams the virtual lands in a quest to devour every last bit of past quality gaming there is left.

Erm, did I mention I'm actually looking forward to SPORE?
Oh, wait, I did, right before you suggested I had better kill myself

now playing: Godsmack - Serenity. and going all emo and shit.

 

There have to be people around somewhere (other than already mentioned) who harbor these sentiments or have gaming tastes similar to yours and are capable of designing games. Maybe if there is a discernible market then there will be some sort of resurgence of such titles, many of which are all independently developed right now, I guess as a true labor of love.

I for one would love a new update to the 2D RPG engine. I think I am desperate enough to tolerate even cell shading.

 

The end of good RPGs is not the end of the world. Come on, you must have at least one other hobby?

 

Are you talking to me?
Yes, I do, in fact I have several other hobbys, the most important one propably being music - as in playing the guitar, both classical and E.
It's not about the end of the world.
It's about how I freaking used to LOVE this particular hobby called gaming.

 

Ah, screw this, I say we shut the fucking place down already.
Well, no, not really, as it's part of my daily entertaiment - but really, talking about old games and trying to analize what's wrong with the modern ones with not even the indie market looking too promising - that's no sustainable base for a community like this on[/quote]

I wait for much more crpgs (and I don't play only those) then AoD that would be Thewitcher, Battle Lord, Jade Empire can be playable to. That year doesn't look good but not tragic, and better then last one.

I work on pc anyway so I don't really loose anything by browsing that forum, maybe I could work little more but I am to lazy anyway. (as answering to why i can bitch sometimes)

 

I've no idea what you just said.

 

I think this scenario isn't too uncommon. I'm 28 and I'm in a similar situation - used to really enjoy "gaming" as a hobby but find newer games don't offer the same kind of enjoyment as the previous era of games. I also spend alot of time looking for older games that I missed or are worth replaying or looking for new indie games that offer some kind of unique experience.

From reading forums I've noticed that alot of people in our age bracket (25-30) seem to be experiencing the same thing - of course it's hard to judge how many people this really represents..

I'm trying to figure out if new games aren't as well designed or if I'm just getting jaded?

 

Try again.

 

Quick way to find out:

Fire up one of those old games you know you enjoyed a lot when you were younger.

Having fun?

If yes: Sorry, it's not you, it's indeed the games that seem to lose their magic.

If no: congratulations, maybe just taking a brake from gaming (in any shape and form whatsoever) for a while might be all you need.

 

Games ar egetting better. I really wish people stop looking through rose colured glasses at the past. I'm sorry; but days when games like the GB series, M&M , and Wizardry were considered top notch role-playing games is silly. They were nothing but glorified dungeon crawls with very basic stories. *yawn* There was very little attempt ata ctual role-playing. Fun they were, and that's about it.

I think gamers as a whole were much easier to please back then.

 

No, thats bullshit. Not only for the RPG genre.

True, but not for all games. Wasteland, RoA, the later Ultimas, Fallout far from what I'd call dungeon crawls.

 

Exceptions to the rule, my friend, exemptions to the rule.

 

that's because you ahve redefined roleplaying to mean playing dressup dolly and prancing around like a goddamn kansas city faggot.

 

indeed, but where are those exceptions today?
You may be even right, todays average linear story driven RPG like NWN 2 or Kotor may be better than your average dungeoncrawl from back then, but there very little or no outstanding games these days.

 

"that's because you ahve redefined roleplaying to mean playing dressup dolly and prancing around like a goddamn kansas city faggot"

And? Your point? I'm a Princess. I should be a faggot. Coward.

 

And whose Alt account would you be?

 

We are all alts. Alts of our Lord God and his son Jesus Christ.

 

Daggerfall was a much much much better game for playing dressup dolly and LARPing than any modern RPG.

Either the past was a lot better than the present is right now, or we're just like all these grandpas remembering the "good old times" from 1940.