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KickStarter Spy DNA - realistic tactical combat with genetically enhanced agents

Infinitron

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Kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/433035186/spy-dna-super-spy-for-a-day
Steam Greenlight: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=876434355


https://www.shysnake.com







From the Codex inbox:

Hi there,
My name is Alex, co-founder of Shy Snake game studio. I’m writing to tell you about the game that our team of two has been working on for more than a year now, called Spy DNA (http://spydna.com).

With Spy DNA we're introducing more realism to turn-based strategy gaming.

First, we're doing away with the actual turns. The actions take as long as they take, and when your character is done, you get to do something new. You can also queue up actions ahead of time, and freeze time to think and change the plan whenever needed.

Second, we've modeled our weapons on real physics. Our game uses ballistic equations to figure out where the rounds go and how much damage they do when they hit. We've even built a kilometer-long shooting range just to make sure we could dial in our rifles. :) The shooting range may or may not make it into the final game, but we used it to make sure the weapons work right.

Finally, we also did away with hit points, and built an anatomical model of a human in-game, so we can simulate accurate damage based on what is hit.

It's still fairly early on, and we only have a demo video for now, but we're hoping to have an alpha out later this year. We’re planning to do a crowdfunding campaign in 6-8 weeks, which will help us afford all the assets our game needs, such as animations, 3D models, music, and such.

Spy DNA is really focusing on the strategy and realism aspects. Because of this we’re reaching out to like-minded blogs early to start getting feedback, and to raise awareness.
 
Last edited:

InD_ImaginE

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First, we're doing away with the actual turns. The actions take as long as they take, and when your character is done, you get to do something new. You can also queue up actions ahead of time, and freeze time to think and change the plan whenever needed.

Uh.., so RTWP?
 

Roqua

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What is stated looks and sounds good but I really don't see anything about character progression beyond mention of the shooter's skill. I'd like more information on character progression - is it rpg-lite or what is going on? Also, is it a full blown rpg or a straight up combat game like Breach & Clear?
 

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This looks ugly in an endearing late 90s sort of way (the best era for ugly yet strangely appealing 3D graphics).
I would be interested in a spy RPG that isn't Alpha Protocol.
Is there a codex staff member or "content contributor" with time enough on their hands to maybe grill them for some clarification of terms and a namedropping of RPGs and tactical strategy games they've actually played and aim for as mechanical inspirations?
 

shysnake

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This is Jason from shysnake. I don't mind answering questions if the mods let me. Quick intro, I'm doing the gameplay development @ shysnake.

What is stated looks and sounds good but I really don't see anything about character progression beyond mention of the shooter's skill. I'd like more information on character progression - is it rpg-lite or what is going on? Also, is it a full blown rpg or a straight up combat game like Breach & Clear?

Character progression happens in two forms. The primary method is "by doing". i.e. using a skill will improve that skill. The second method is via training. This is intended to bootstrap skills to the point they can be used without killing the character. i.e. you wouldn't want to go around practicing disarming mines with a skill of 1 (on a 0-100 scale).

To answer the second question is a little harder. Most missions will center around stealth and/or combat. That said when I last talked to the writer they had ~200 pages of story and dialog. That will grow as they fill out the dialog options. i.e. write all the options in detail.
 

shysnake

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This looks ugly in an endearing late 90s sort of way (the best era for ugly yet strangely appealing 3D graphics).
I would be interested in a spy RPG that isn't Alpha Protocol.
Is there a codex staff member or "content contributor" with time enough on their hands to maybe grill them for some clarification of terms and a namedropping of RPGs and tactical strategy games they've actually played and aim for as mechanical inspirations?

I've played a LOT of games over the years. The core gameplay has a long story behind it. I used to run a pen-and-paper game, Living Steel, which did a great job making the players feel like they were really in combat. i.e. every action mattered to them because it really was a life and death struggle. However, the mechanic behind it was so cumbersome that most players struggled with it. So I went off and wrote a computer combat simulation engine to help me run the game and threw out their rules. It turns out computers are really good at doing math and physics calculations, letting players focus on playing. I dusted off the sim a couple years ago and started running games again. One of the players asked if we could make a computer RPG out of it and shysnake was born.....

For PC games that I really enjoyed that I would refer to as inspiring for SpyDNA
Planets Edge
Jagged Alliance (originals)
Silent Storm 2
Fallout 1 & 2
Close Combat

What we want to do is bring a level of "this feels like real combat" that hasn't really been done before in a squad based computer game. As an example, we threw together a firing range for us to test the weapons on. The map is ugly because it was built in 4 hours just for internal testing. However, we still made a blog post out of it.
http://www.shysnake.com/blog/2016/1/26/virtual-shooting-range

To answer the one other questions. It's real time with pause and queueing. Alex (the person making the videos) keeps cutting out the "paused" parts for more excitement and drama in the videos.
 
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With Spy DNA we're introducing more realism to turn-based strategy gaming.

First, we're doing away with the actual turns

What we want to do is bring a level of "this feels like real combat" that hasn't really been done before in a squad based computer game

You know you ought to avoid a game when an argument, any argument at all -and we have seen all kinds there is to it through the years; realism! fun! graphics! technological limitations!- is made for *discarding* classic golden features while at the same time, claiming inspiration from them. That just speaks volumes about the design vision: "we don't have the slightest clue what we are doing!" That's the trademark of those who don't even know how much they don't know.

I checked the blog post and the video; it merely demonstrates a ballistics model based on real world stats, nothing more. That has been done before (in other squad games). So, really, your game won't be the first. Besides, throwing real world ballistics stats doesn't suddenly make a game "realistic". There are many angles, and preferences, to what "realism" is.

If you simply want to make a RTWP game, go ahead and just call it that. Shit like "we're doing away with turns because <we're such geniuses>" leads to a complete erosion of trust in developers. You are not the first fucking geniuses to come up with an idea so good, it will totally *justify* why you think it is *superior* to TB (because that's basically what you are saying even if you don't realize it). Right now, my impression of your game is rather abysmal if only for this I-shit-at-your-turf attitude.

How about this, I have a grand fucking idea that will totally boost interest in your game by ten-fold:

Introduce more realism to Real Time With Pause strategy gaming.

How, you ask?

Simple, and you will love this:

ADD FUCKING TURNS TO IT!

Brilliant, no? Gonna completely revitalize RTWP gaming. Not only will it make it more REALISTIC, but also more GAMEY. REALISTIC and GAMEY at the same time! Think about that for a sec.
 
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agris

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This looks ugly in an endearing late 90s sort of way (the best era for ugly yet strangely appealing 3D graphics).
I would be interested in a spy RPG that isn't Alpha Protocol.
Is there a codex staff member or "content contributor" with time enough on their hands to maybe grill them for some clarification of terms and a namedropping of RPGs and tactical strategy games they've actually played and aim for as mechanical inspirations?

I've played a LOT of games over the years. The core gameplay has a long story behind it. I used to run a pen-and-paper game, Living Steel, which did a great job making the players feel like they were really in combat. i.e. every action mattered to them because it really was a life and death struggle. However, the mechanic behind it was so cumbersome that most players struggled with it. So I went off and wrote a computer combat simulation engine to help me run the game and threw out their rules. It turns out computers are really good at doing math and physics calculations, letting players focus on playing. I dusted off the sim a couple years ago and started running games again. One of the players asked if we could make a computer RPG out of it and shysnake was born.....

For PC games that I really enjoyed that I would refer to as inspiring for SpyDNA
Planets Edge
Jagged Alliance (originals)
Silent Storm 2
Fallout 1 & 2
Close Combat

What we want to do is bring a level of "this feels like real combat" that hasn't really been done before in a squad based computer game. As an example, we threw together a firing range for us to test the weapons on. The map is ugly because it was built in 4 hours just for internal testing. However, we still made a blog post out of it.
http://www.shysnake.com/blog/2016/1/26/virtual-shooting-range

To answer the one other questions. It's real time with pause and queueing. Alex (the person making the videos) keeps cutting out the "paused" parts for more excitement and drama in the videos.
What are the tangible inspirations from Fallout 1/2 and Silent Storm? Are there ability checks in dialogue? Do the attributes influence the starting value of skills and derived statistics, with attributes difficult or impossible to improve? What about destructible environments and a real projectile line of sight system?

edit: just watched the gun-range video and I appreciate what you've got going there but.. that firing sound, are all those weapons silenced? It sounds too thin, even for a silenced weapon.
 

shysnake

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ADD FUCKING TURNS TO IT!

So having played both in the past. In a lot of ways I understand this view. But I want to throw out a few ideas that might give everyone a better idea where we are headed.

Most turn based games make the world static except for the actions of the characters moving and the side effects of those actions such as triggering traps and so forth. This is really good because it gives the player time to think, plan, and have a deep understanding of everything happening in the world. But it also has it's costs. One example being when the last character you are moving gets spotted and now the enemy basically gets a free round to act (in some games running a npc half walk across the map to kill a party member with an ax). It's a tradeoff.

The reason I didn't list and RTwP games as inspiration is simply, their were none. The ones I have played usually have far too much of a chaotic feel to them and it becomes very difficult to stay on top of everything that is happening.

What we are really doing is something between the two. I don't have a proper label for it (and I didn't write the text on the website). Every action is assigned a time. So it will be that characters turn once that amount of time has passed. However, when that character commits their action time progresses for all characters in the world until some character in the players party has finished their previous action or encounters something worthy of an interrupt.

I'll put up a gameplay video once the UI has progressed to the point it can demonstrate this properly.
 

Mustawd

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Squad tactics RTWP games, just off the top of my head: fallout tactics, xcom apoc, BiA/crossfire, frozen synapse, and at least some of the UFO Aftercraps? And that's not even counting all the RPGs.

I believe 7,62 High Calibre was also RTwP.
 

Zombra

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To me "RTWP" implies something I'm not seeing here ... generally autoattack or player AI routines. You click a few guys to attack, hit the space bar and watch them go, then watch it run for a while, then hit space bar when you want to tweak something else. This looks more like you have to issue every action deliberately. Once a guy finishes whatever he's doing, you have to issue his next order. That's not really RTWP. It's not "turn based" either in the sense of you go, then I go; it's more like Frozen Synapse or Laser Squad Nemesis, except with interrupts. LSN was well described as "phase-based"; maybe that's what this really is. Or maybe I'm projecting.

Good luck Shy Snake. Great studio name by the way.
 

Mustawd

Guest
To me "RTWP" implies something I'm not seeing here ... generally autoattack or player AI routines. You click a few guys to attack, hit the space bar and watch them go, then watch it run for a while, then hit space bar when you want to tweak something else.


That sounds more like Close Combat, which the dev mentioned is an influence. But to me that's more of an RTS with a pause function. Which is different than a real time game with pause that reacts to each order separately with no AI.
 

shysnake

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What are the tangible inspirations from Fallout 1/2 and Silent Storm? Are there ability checks in dialogue? Do the attributes influence the starting value of skills and derived statistics, with attributes difficult or impossible to improve? What about destructible environments and a real projectile line of sight system?

edit: just watched the gun-range video and I appreciate what you've got going there but.. that firing sound, are all those weapons silenced? It sounds too thin, even for a silenced weapon.

The fallout games were the first ones I remember (It's been a long time so my memory is foggy) where you would really feel for your poor suffering character after a fight or too much radiation. It also did a good job breaking combat down into smaller time units. It was just a lot of fun.

Silent Storm, I really, really liked the destructible world. First play-through I had a backpack full of mines. I finally hit a spot where I saw a bunch of enemies outside a door. So I trapped the door and for good measure dropped about 20 more mines and other explosives there for good measure. Made a noise, they opened the door, took the whole building with it, along with the mission objective. Had to reload, but that was cool.

Attributes don't influence the starting values of skills, but they provide +/- modifiers to the skill checks. As expected, they also directly influence things such as how fast you can move, how much you can carry, etc..

Destructible environment, it's limited. I'd like to do more but the modifications UE4 would need are more than we want to take on for this project.

Real projectile line of sight system: yes. Because we have a detailed model of each type of projectile we can also track things such as over-penetration. What's counts as cover vs a pistol may not do much of anything vs a heavy rifle. This is also an area where we put a lot of effort into realistic. We actually have a model where we can track which vital organs or bones a shot hits and them adjust a characters performance as a result. Ex: Take a round though the lung and the characters stamina is going to take a hit.

Some of the firing sounds are place holders, along with the all 3D gun model. However, one of the problems with the sounds is when you have VERY fast firing weapons (>2000 rpm) that you stop hearing the individual shots and it all blurs together. Ex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L0ZAGOuaqg
 

shysnake

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To me "RTWP" implies something I'm not seeing here ... generally autoattack or player AI routines. You click a few guys to attack, hit the space bar and watch them go, then watch it run for a while, then hit space bar when you want to tweak something else. This looks more like you have to issue every action deliberately. Once a guy finishes whatever he's doing, you have to issue his next order. That's not really RTWP. It's not "turn based" either in the sense of you go, then I go; it's more like Frozen Synapse or Laser Squad Nemesis, except with interrupts. LSN was well described as "phase-based"; maybe that's what this really is. Or maybe I'm projecting.

Good luck Shy Snake. Great studio name by the way.

Thanks,

That's a pretty accurate view of what we are doing. Sadly I don't have a good term for it either. However, based on this thread I need to find or create one.
 

Zombra

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Oh, also shysnake, once people here get sick of complaining about RTWP, get ready for them to complain about a learn-by-doing experience system. Personally I think that learn by doing or through training sounds excellent. Jagged Alliance did it right. But most people here would rather shoot 200 guards and then magically get better at lockpicking. You've been warned.

Maybe you could call it a "staggered turns system". Just brainstorming.
 

Roqua

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This is Jason from shysnake. I don't mind answering questions if the mods let me. Quick intro, I'm doing the gameplay development @ shysnake.

What is stated looks and sounds good but I really don't see anything about character progression beyond mention of the shooter's skill. I'd like more information on character progression - is it rpg-lite or what is going on? Also, is it a full blown rpg or a straight up combat game like Breach & Clear?

Character progression happens in two forms. The primary method is "by doing". i.e. using a skill will improve that skill. The second method is via training. This is intended to bootstrap skills to the point they can be used without killing the character. i.e. you wouldn't want to go around practicing disarming mines with a skill of 1 (on a 0-100 scale).

To answer the second question is a little harder. Most missions will center around stealth and/or combat. That said when I last talked to the writer they had ~200 pages of story and dialog. That will grow as they fill out the dialog options. i.e. write all the options in detail.

Thank you for the reply, and please realize most of these monkeys love games like the IE games which are not just RTwP, but click and watch without thinking nonsense. There are a million other games they love that are RTwP also like Kotors, Dragon Age, the NWNs, basically everything that is RTwP, so you can ignore their gibberish.

Wheras I dislike all those games because of the awful combat but am willing to go in without expectations and judge this game on its own merits and hope I am surprised. I was with the RTwP system in Aarklash Legacy.

I still have no idea about your rpg system. How many stats? how many skills? Are there perks? Are there systems like it you can point to? Is it rpg-lite?

I also still do not know if it is a full fledged rpg or not. For instance, some games have a story between missions, some consider themselves rpgs and others know they are not. Is this a Squad tactics game with some rpg elements or is a rpg where I go around completing quests and missions. Is it like Breach & Clear with an added story between missions, or is it like WL2 where I go around picking locks, talking to NPCs, buying shit in shops, completing tasks/quests/missions? Etc.

Is it something like JA 2 where it is map based? I don't have a clear idea of what is this game is offering besides realistic combat.
 

felipepepe

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For PC games that I really enjoyed that I would refer to as inspiring for SpyDNA
Planets Edge
Jagged Alliance (originals)
Silent Storm 2
Fallout 1 & 2
Close Combat
Wait, so you weren't inspired by Brigade E5, 7.62 High Calibre or Marauder? Because they use exactly what you seem to be using - a system based on the time each action takes to be executed, instead of just an invisible round system like most RTwP games. You should give 7.62 a try, their system is the most complex and interesting in any RTwP game I've ever seen.
 

shysnake

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I still have no idea about your rpg system. How many stats? how many skills? Are there perks? Are there systems like it you can point to? Is it rpg-lite?

I also still do not know if it is a full fledged rpg or not. For instance, some games have a story between missions, some consider themselves rpgs and others know they are not. Is this a Squad tactics game with some rpg elements or is a rpg where I go around completing quests and missions. Is it like Breach & Clear with an added story between missions, or is it like WL2 where I go around picking locks, talking to NPCs, buying shit in shops, completing tasks/quests/missions? Etc.

Is it something like JA 2 where it is map based? I don't have a clear idea of what is this game is offering besides realistic combat.

I've been thinking how to describe the progression. The recent Shadowrun games are probably the best analogy. It's primarily mission based but with considerable story and dialog.

I don't want to say too much about stats and skill because neither are finalized. The current draft has 7 primary attributes with each having additional detail values for those that want to know and control everything. For example, the core stat "Perception", breaks down into "mental perception, sight, hearing, and smell" if you really want the nitty gritty details.

For skills there are currently just under 20. Some will get cut once we have a few more levels complete. There is a cross feed mechanism so training or using one skill will advance related skills. For example practicing with pistols with have a small positive effect on the rifle skill. The majority of them are combat, stealth, or observation related.

Perks: yes, but though genetic enhancements.
 

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