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Star Control: Origins - Star Control reboot from Stardock

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,522
None of that matters since the writing in this game is fucking retarded
Can't be helped. This is the same guy who wrote the retarded attempt at "humour" that was GalCiv3. Anyone who can come up with "literally beat innovation into existence" has the mentality of a three year old.
 

lophiaspis

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
379
Fair review.

He kind of gave SC2 a free pass though. Even though SC2 was better designed and written overall, it still had the same problems of grind and repetitive dialog. My main complaint with Star Control is that everything is so gamey. There is nothing that just exists in the world as a simulation on its own terms. Every character only exists to feed you some kind of powerups and/or receive the product of grinding. You can't really criticize SC:O's gameplay without tarring UQM with the same brush. I think this curatorial style of remaking 1990s classics works best for games with excellent gameplay like X-Com and MoO, not ones with questionable gameplay like UQM.

I think for any designer that wants to make a Captain Picard simulator it would be better to take your inspiration from Space Quest 5 rather than SC2. As an adventure game, it's on the opposite side of the gameyness scale. Everything in the game is unique and hand crafted.
 

rezaf

Cipher
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Messages
652
That review follows the line of "Reviewer doesn't know how to play Star Control" that had been mentioned earlier, and justifies Wardell's message about How To Play The Game. You only go for the "Gobble up everything in sight" approach while you're still in the Sol system. Once you're out and exploring you only grab the valuable resources that are easily acquired, make a note of the ones that you'll have to come back to later, and skip the rest. This means that every haul you bring back will be quite valuable, and cut down on the grinding. This is also how it was in Star Control 2. The fact that the reviewer doesn't bother thinking for a moment here reveals to us that he's never played Star Control 2 either. At best he watched a few YouTube videos of a Let's Play of UQM.

But SC:O does a piss poor job of communicating this to the player, nor does it lend him a hand for doing just that.
Even if you just look at the resource gathering in isolation, I think you already see a ton of problems in this game.
You are basically doing the same thing you did in SC2, but the minimalistic 2D top-down minigame has been replaced by a fully realized 3d environment. Navigating it requires more time and is more annoying because you can get hung on scenery and stuff. Unlike in SC2, there's no planetary map in sight. Wtf? So resource hunting is more time consuming and more annoying than in the old game. Well done indeed.
Also, upgrades and ships cost resources, so the game kinda does encourage you to grind - especially with that one component which only skips the almost inconsequential minigame when landing on a planet costing 15000RU.

Zooming out a little, the game does not keep track for you what resources and specials are on a planet. Keep note of resources you might want to come back for is a strange advice when you have no idea what resources this might refer to.
There should be a system database, where you can click on any system on the stellar map, see at a glance the percentage of bodies you have explored in it, see which resources to find on which planet you have explored, see the atmospheric conditions of each, related quests and whatnot. None of that is in the game. Sure, you had to keep track of that in SC2 yourself, but this was in an era where you would also know everyones phone number from memory instead of relying on your smartphone for storing them all.
I thought part of Stardock's income comes from business software - don't they have ANY expertise in these things?

Rather than a SC2 vibe, the planetary exploration reminded me of the planetary exploration in the first Mass Effect, except there was hardly ever anything (beyond resources) worth discovering, the variety was severly lacking, the visuals had a spore-vibe to them and a hostile alien would basically insta-kill the lander. Which idiot came up with that shit?

The review praises the combat, yet I feel they managed to mess this up as well. It's a fairly close approximation of the original, and it kinda sorta works some of the time, but then again ... the AI in it is so godawful.
Getting the auto-combat module (which you can NOT toggle on and off at your leisure - the stardock guy who made this decision should retire from game design immediately) is like a trip to the mental asylum.
Ships will ignore enviromental hazards, willingly crash into asteroids on their own accord, even if it costs them precious crew. Weapon loadouts will be ignored, the AI will navigate straight on into a line of boarding shuttles that will destroy it's ship, it will circle strafe for minutes, it will try to get an enemy into it's sights even when it does have no forward firing weapon ... it's really pure insanity.
Controlling the battles yourself can sometimes be enjoyable, but then again, often enough fighting will drag itself out far beyond the length it can be interesting for.

Same as the reviewer, I kinda thought the aliens were mostly neat, but there's maybe 20% of the interaction with them there should be, or - to put it differently - 80% of the fleshing out conversations should have is just not there.
Why does an alien even hail me when there's two conversation options and both result in immediate combat?

As early as after the mission to reach the Tywom homeworld you face a mission that will require tons of grinding or at the very least clueless system exploration as you cannot reach the worlds you should go to with your fuel allotment.
In hindsight, this was when the game started falling apart for me. Like I said earlier, if the player was supposed to play differently, the game would have to do a much, MUCH better job of communicating that - and also make it desireable.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,522
That review follows the line of "Reviewer doesn't know how to play Star Control" that had been mentioned earlier, and justifies Wardell's message about How To Play The Game. You only go for the "Gobble up everything in sight" approach while you're still in the Sol system. Once you're out and exploring you only grab the valuable resources that are easily acquired, make a note of the ones that you'll have to come back to later, and skip the rest. This means that every haul you bring back will be quite valuable, and cut down on the grinding. This is also how it was in Star Control 2. The fact that the reviewer doesn't bother thinking for a moment here reveals to us that he's never played Star Control 2 either. At best he watched a few YouTube videos of a Let's Play of UQM.

But SC:O does a piss poor job of communicating this to the player, nor does it lend him a hand for doing just that.
Even if you just look at the resource gathering in isolation, I think you already see a ton of problems in this game.
You are basically doing the same thing you did in SC2, but the minimalistic 2D top-down minigame has been replaced by a fully realized 3d environment. Navigating it requires more time and is more annoying because you can get hung on scenery and stuff. Unlike in SC2, there's no planetary map in sight. Wtf? So resource hunting is more time consuming and more annoying than in the old game. Well done indeed.
Also, upgrades and ships cost resources, so the game kinda does encourage you to grind - especially with that one component which only skips the almost inconsequential minigame when landing on a planet costing 15000RU.

Zooming out a little, the game does not keep track for you what resources and specials are on a planet. Keep note of resources you might want to come back for is a strange advice when you have no idea what resources this might refer to.
There should be a system database, where you can click on any system on the stellar map, see at a glance the percentage of bodies you have explored in it, see which resources to find on which planet you have explored, see the atmospheric conditions of each, related quests and whatnot. None of that is in the game. Sure, you had to keep track of that in SC2 yourself, but this was in an era where you would also know everyones phone number from memory instead of relying on your smartphone for storing them all.
I thought part of Stardock's income comes from business software - don't they have ANY expertise in these things?

Rather than a SC2 vibe, the planetary exploration reminded me of the planetary exploration in the first Mass Effect, except there was hardly ever anything (beyond resources) worth discovering, the variety was severly lacking, the visuals had a spore-vibe to them and a hostile alien would basically insta-kill the lander. Which idiot came up with that shit?

The review praises the combat, yet I feel they managed to mess this up as well. It's a fairly close approximation of the original, and it kinda sorta works some of the time, but then again ... the AI in it is so godawful.
Getting the auto-combat module (which you can NOT toggle on and off at your leisure - the stardock guy who made this decision should retire from game design immediately) is like a trip to the mental asylum.
Ships will ignore enviromental hazards, willingly crash into asteroids on their own accord, even if it costs them precious crew. Weapon loadouts will be ignored, the AI will navigate straight on into a line of boarding shuttles that will destroy it's ship, it will circle strafe for minutes, it will try to get an enemy into it's sights even when it does have no forward firing weapon ... it's really pure insanity.
Controlling the battles yourself can sometimes be enjoyable, but then again, often enough fighting will drag itself out far beyond the length it can be interesting for.

Same as the reviewer, I kinda thought the aliens were mostly neat, but there's maybe 20% of the interaction with them there should be, or - to put it differently - 80% of the fleshing out conversations should have is just not there.
Why does an alien even hail me when there's two conversation options and both result in immediate combat?

As early as after the mission to reach the Tywom homeworld you face a mission that will require tons of grinding or at the very least clueless system exploration as you cannot reach the worlds you should go to with your fuel allotment.
In hindsight, this was when the game started falling apart for me. Like I said earlier, if the player was supposed to play differently, the game would have to do a much, MUCH better job of communicating that - and also make it desireable.
For a spaceship that is supposedly built by advanced humans, it has a suspicious lack of a planetary database, something which even something like MoO had back in the day: Draconis 1 - Barren, Large, Poor (replace this with x tons of x resources, y tons of y resource, etc.), buildings built, etc.

It is like the developer couldn't be arsed and wanted to rush something out before a secret dateline... like say, his lawsuit getting thrown out of court with prejudice.
 

Unkillable Cat

LEST WE FORGET
Patron
Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
27,207
Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy
rezaf Excellent analysis, I agree completely with your words.

This is another reason why I dropped the game after learning of the expansions: Stardock now has an opportunity to fix their mess and address these issues. Whether they actually do so... is anyone's guess.
 

Zarniwoop

TESTOSTERONIC As Fuck™
Patron
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
18,703
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
It is like the developer couldn't be arsed and wanted to rush something out before a secret dateline... like say, his lawsuit getting thrown out of court with prejudice.

If only.

My faith in the US legal system is at an all time low.

Hillary committed treason and is not in jail.
That child-talking bitch accusing Kavanaugh of "attempted rape" is not only not being charged but is actually being listened to.
OJ walks free.

So I don't expect a Windows-theming outfit "buying the rights to call themselves the original creators of Star Control" would get ROFL'd out of court like they should be in any sane world either.
 

baud

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 11, 2016
Messages
3,992
Location
Septentrion
RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
I thought part of Stardock's income comes from business software - don't they have ANY expertise in these things?

Business software hiding information is a feature, not a bug, at least for the seller, who can then sell a support contract for even more money.

Thank you for writing your thoughts, I think I won't buy that game.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,716
Location
California

Two weeks later, and the game is now at 70% player ratings. (On GOG it's at 2.9/5.) It's really disappointing. I had super high hopes for this game, and part of the reason for those hopes is that I always thought of Stardock as one of the best post-release-support companies out there. (I never liked GalCiv 2, but man, it seemed like they patched and tinkered with it every 15 minutes.) That support, coupled with the modability, made me think that even if the game wasn't great at launch, it would provide a long-term guarantee of many excellent SC2-likes.

Now I'm not sure. If the game isn't selling, and faces legal jeopardy, and is fueling a backlash against Stardock, I wonder whether they'll resources into supporting it. And if the core demographic of SC2-lovers is alienated by the game, I wonder whether there will be any modding community making great new campaigns for it. Once it dips below 70% on Steam, my understanding is that it stops getting thrown on the front page (which is part of what harmed TTON, perpetually stuck at 69%).

It does shed some light on Brad's frustration with how things shook out with TFB and the SC2 community. A more sympathetic audience could've caused a cascade of successes and goodwill. Instead, even with all of Stardock's superior resources in the fight, TFB partisans can always kill the game just by giving it one star on GOG or upvoting negative reviews on Steam or declining to review it in mainstream game sites. (For instance, on GOG, people who actually own the game rate it 4.3/5; the overall rating is 2.9/5; which means that the average rating of people who don't own the game is probably 1/5. The first five reviews on GOG consist of a 4-star review from a verified owner, and four 1-star reviews that are not from verified owners.)
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,522
TFB partisans...
Stardick could have headed this all off at the pass by being nice instead of being an utter asshole and then tried to apply legalistic hair-splitting and brinkmanship by, amongst other things, trying to trademark things that weren't his.

Do you think that people would actually grow to like a fraud, a jerk and an asshole engaged in what amounts to guerilla lawfare? Of course not. All stardick had to do was not engage in "Fuck you, I am taking it all by claiming it first and fuck your IP rights! Fuck you fuck you fuck you! FUUUUUUCKKKK!!! YOOOOOUUUU!!!!!!"

Seriously, man. What did you expect to happen once stardick went down that path? Particularly when the SC2 community was already expressing misgivings about his game being nothing like SC2 and more a in-name-only cash grab before the legal thing even blew up? And then he decided to go nuclear and started threatening The Ur-Quan Masters. WTF, man? He attacked the very base that the game was trying to appeal to. The motherfucker's lost the plot, his marbles and any shred of good will left after the bruising battle with Fred and Paul.

The handling of the game is a classic what not to do in marketing. Stardick deserved the outcome. He was obviously aiming for it.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,716
Location
California
I wasn't using the pejoratively; I was referring to irregular soldiers who can defeat a better supplied foe by using non-conventional tactics, sabotage, etc. Obviously at the moment you say that you are going to destroy Star Control fandom, the fans are going to respond. Of course, if Ghosts of the Precursors is anything other than vaporware and is released some day, Stardock partisans will do the same to it. Neither fandom is huge, but both are passionate.

I am not sure what motivated the parties involved. There are range of innocent to wicked explanations for everything. For instance, I imagine it was pretty crushing to spend one's whole life loving SC2, finally gathering the necessary components (technical know-how, wealth, team, intellectual property rights) to resuscitate it, then screwing up the courage to go before one's lifelong idols, only to be told, "No thanks, we'd really rather not work with you and we'd really rather you not continue the story of our game and also that IP you thought you bought is worthless and by the way we're going to make our own game so yours will be seen as a fraud rather than an homage." Even a good and thoughtful person could behave poorly in the wake of that. Of course, I could be pretty annoying to have someone come to you and say, "I own your creation, but I'd welcome you as hirelings to implement my vision for it." A good and thoughtful person could react poorly to that, too. It's all a shame because I'm pretty sure that if they worked together, we'd all be better off.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,522
It's all a shame because I'm pretty sure that if they worked together, we'd all be better off.
I agree with you 100% there. I loved SC2 and have replayed it to death, and would love a game that is a real sequel to it, not the remains of an abortion that was SC3.

However, I doubt the ego shown by stardick would have allowed that. He would demand to be on top and the one wielding the whip, so working together was never going to happen. As the saying goes, "It is what it is."
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,716
Location
California
I don't know him, so I can't say. I've always thought that Stardock did some things very well (no DRM, frequent patching), and based on the games they developed, I assumed Brad had a fondness for the same games I did as a kid (MOO, MOM, SC2, etc.). My experience playing their games did not suggest top-down megalomania at all. Instead, the problem I had was that the game played like games developed by a business software company -- there was no fun in them compared to the games that were their inspirations. That is a personal judgment; obviously swaths of people loved GalCiv2, for instance. But to me, it felt endlessly grindy, without the sense of sweeping space opera that I loved in MOO. So I had certain worries about SC:O. But the complaints I've read have nothing to do with those worries. People seem annoyed at some of the features or design decisions in SC:O, and with the writing and plotting, but the look/feel of the game is consistent with SC2 to me. They seem to have gotten the sense of adventure right, at least.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,522
I don't know him, so I can't say. I've always thought that Stardock did some things very well (no DRM, frequent patching), and based on the games they developed, I assumed Brad had a fondness for the same games I did as a kid (MOO, MOM, SC2, etc.). My experience playing their games did not suggest top-down megalomania at all. Instead, the problem I had was that the game played like games developed by a business software company -- there was no fun in them compared to the games that were their inspirations. That is a personal judgment; obviously swaths of people loved GalCiv2, for instance. But to me, it felt endlessly grindy, without the sense of sweeping space opera that I loved in MOO. So I had certain worries about SC:O. But the complaints I've read have nothing to do with those worries. People seem annoyed at some of the features or design decisions in SC:O, and with the writing and plotting, but the look/feel of the game is consistent with SC2 to me. They seem to have gotten the sense of adventure right, at least.
I don't know him from a bar of soap either, but his actions with regards to this entire sordid saga is in the public domain, and they point to an arrogant, narcissistic, asshole personality who is not above using deception and lawfare to get his way. To stoop to that kind of tactics is beyond nasty.
 

LESS T_T

Arcane
Joined
Oct 5, 2012
Messages
13,582
Codex 2014
https://steamcommunity.com/games/starcontrolorigins/announcements/detail/3422065577045732992

Star Control: Week 4 Blog

090d85881a1b7e0d3fe9ecc3404a11a902d46996.png


Hello...BEST FRIENDS!

We are currently working on version 1.1 of Star Control: Origins and the first free DLC called the Multiverse. We expect to have a beta version of v1.1 out this week for those who want to try it out.

Multiverse

The Multiverse DLC will open up Steam Workshop to modders who want to create their own stories, maps, custom settings, aliens, etc. for people to play with. This DLC will obviously evolve over time and get more features as we learn what kinds of things players like to share.

The Expansion

We will be announcing the first expansion in a few weeks which will be released as a single season pass so that we can release it as a series of micro-expansions. It will introduce lots of new aliens, new places to visit, new quests and will benefit both players who have finished the main storyline as well as new players.

As always, let us know if there's anything you'd like to see.

Cheers!
 

Incendax

Augur
Joined
Jul 4, 2010
Messages
892
*Watches the Intro*
...
Lexites are Androsynth.
LEXITES ARE ANDROSYNTH, you bastard thief!
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
I have such a large mass of small expendable ships that I've somehow managed to keep together for a while now without losing a single one. Maybe it has something to do with my strategy of keeping distance from the enemy and grabbing as many power-ups on the battlefield as possible before engaging.
This sounds rather analogous to the SC2 strategy of roflpwning everyone with the Thraddash Torch.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,522
I have such a large mass of small expendable ships that I've somehow managed to keep together for a while now without losing a single one. Maybe it has something to do with my strategy of keeping distance from the enemy and grabbing as many power-ups on the battlefield as possible before engaging.
This sounds rather analogous to the SC2 strategy of roflpwning everyone with the Thraddash Torch.
The Torch is the most underrated ship in the whole game. The Mauler, too, is pretty underrated.

The Avenger is overrated simply because you always sort of know where it is, so the cloak is rather useless. And the Arilou Sperm Skiff is horrible. That teleport uses energy but it has an abyssmal energy reserve. Worse, you can teleport into planets or asteroids which is instant death. Bloody trap of a ship.
 

Incendax

Augur
Joined
Jul 4, 2010
Messages
892
And the Arilou Sperm Skiff is horrible. That teleport uses energy but it has an abyssmal energy reserve. Worse, you can teleport into planets or asteroids which is instant death. Bloody trap of a ship.
I could annihilate anyone but a Chmmr with a Skiff. The auto targeting laser and no-interia allowed for amazing dodging. I definitely acknowledge that it was one of those high skill / high reward ships, but the thing was a beast in the right hands. The same was mostly true about the Fury. You had to deal with intertia, but it had built in mistake correction.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,522
And the Arilou Sperm Skiff is horrible. That teleport uses energy but it has an abyssmal energy reserve. Worse, you can teleport into planets or asteroids which is instant death. Bloody trap of a ship.
I could annihilate anyone but a Chmmr with a Skiff. The auto targeting laser and no-interia allowed for amazing dodging. I definitely acknowledge that it was one of those high skill / high reward ships, but the thing was a beast in the right hands. The same was mostly true about the Fury. You had to deal with intertia, but it had built in mistake correction.
I love the Fury, and fully agree with the 20 point cost of the thing, even though it looked so fragile and undergunned. With it, I took out the Sa-Matra's defences without a single loss after the mothership cleared the defending ships for it. It was lethal in the right hands, and so was the Torch :D
 

Incendax

Augur
Joined
Jul 4, 2010
Messages
892
I love the Fury, and fully agree with the 20 point cost of the thing, even though it looked so fragile and undergunned. With it, I took out the Sa-Matra's defences without a single loss after the mothership cleared the defending ships for it. It was lethal in the right hands, and so was the Torch :D
Yeah. Best thing about the Torch is how much fun it was to fly.

At least until that Mauler snipes you at top speed from across the screen. :argh:
 

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