Company News Taking Care of Business - Iron Tower Studio 2019 Business Diary

[Deleted Member 22431]

Dungeon Rats certainly did well compared to other small-scale tactical RPGs, but that doesn't mean much because the potential of such games is very limited (as the numbers show, even if you compare the first 6 weeks of the year: AoD 7,110 – $24,316, DR 1,562 – $4,800, even though AoD was released a year earlier. One of the problems is that we can't do better in 10 months and if we switch to a 2-3 years schedule to add more depth and complexity, might as well do a proper sequel and not a small -scale tactical spin-off. At least that's the idea.

That’s hardly an explanation.

YOU: Let’s make a small-scale game to help us fund the next game.

NOW: The small-scale game is selling poorly so let’s take two additional years the next time to make a full-fledged sequel instead of a small game.

If sequels sell poorly, investing even more of your time doing this doesn’t work. The real answer is mentioned here:

Naturally, investing 3 years into a sequel and selling 30% of the original will be equally painful (as Dungeon Rats' sales data shows, you don't have to spend 3 years to sell 30% when a single year will do), but what we in mind is so crazy it might actually work.

The main problem with sequels is that the setting and gameplay remain the same. It's nearly impossible to switch gears and offer the player something radically different. While your best fans may be enthralled with the initial game and crave more of it, part of what they are craving is the sense of exploration (of a land and a rule set), novelty, and wonder that accompanying a new RPG - things that will almost inherently be absent in a sequel. Obsidian's Deadfire, for example, plays the same way as the original (which is to be expected, of course; after all, Fallout 2 plays the same way too - you know what works, what doesn't, so you follow the established path and know what to expect from the enemies and factions). With Colony Ship, this problem is easy to solve, not because we're so clever, but because the setting itself implies its solution: we land the Ship and start the Colony.

Let's hope you can deliver the setting in three years.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

Any social system has its own rules and hierarchy. Ants, wolves, bonobo monkeys, lions, orcas. You can't have a complex society without a complex social structure.

Sure. But that structure doesnt have to be human like. And should be more or less different when its supposed to be an alien one. But that does depend on what the overall aim is.

Except for ants all the other mentioned are mammals.
Ants do have a very different "social" structure. And of course, it isnt social at all. Could be a hint there. Although that type of alien civilization has been already heavily used.

Again, Lem dealt with all kinds of alien civilizations including complex ones without complex social structures. Not that im expecting anyone to create quality material on that level.
But there are more options out there.

That's because adapting tv-show to games is much easier than to a book.

Really? Is how easy is something what we are talking about now? And it isnt especially easy at all. Because you have to provide very exact fidelity of the tv show and provide something extra for the audience then just rehashing what theyve already seen.

Are there any tv show turned into great games i dont know about?

In the book the sky is the limit,

No it isnt. But feel free to write a true Science Fiction story rivaling any of the ones i mentioned.

in tv-show there are things that can't be built or generated with CGI (or it's extremely hard/expensive). In games it's even more difficult than in in a tv-show because EVERYTHING has to be generated (some motion picture may be used too, unless you also count claymation but that's only for certain types of games) .

Im not really talking about special effects and epic visuals at all.
But... thats what you get in your brain when you base everything you know on cheap "sci-fi" tv shows.

Also, some of the ideas of these sci-fi authors aren't scientifically accurate,

I was talking about specific Science Fiction authors, not "sci-fi"... ffs...
And youll have to do much better then that to support such general incoherent proclamations.

Also, this shows you have a crucial general misunderstanding of purpose of Science Fiction and you seem to be one of those who expect to find actual real life working schematics for FTL drives in "sci-fi".
Or you are just spouting incoherent nonsense depending on what angle of your argument/idea you are hallucinating to defend with it.

sometimes even gibberish (like Ardryci, don't know how they were translated into English though).

I have no idea what that is. And googling doesnt help. How about you actually precisely explain what the fuck you are talking about instead of just making empty claims i need to research myself?

Humanoids are just the most logical choice, period

I find it highly unattractive to talk to people who splurge such broken definitive proclamations just because they cant let go of some solidified dumb incorrect idea based on ignorance.

but if you want to argue it further give me some examples of non-humanoids that make sense and are within limits of an indie developers (or even AAA developers).

I already fucking did. And there is no such "limits" since i am not talking about special effects and super epic awesome visuals.

This is a second time i repeat this.
You didnt understand anything i said the first time.
Maybe you should try to actually understand what i am talking about instead of trying to continue in that same direction a third time.
But i think it would be best if you dont try to reply at all. And take some time to figure out things.

In the last ditch attempt to be kind to you ill try to point out i was talking about quality of concepts and ideas.

 

[Diggfinger]

Waait wut, Colony Ship 2?? Didn't even realize teh first one was out yet

Cool about the publisher. Wouldnt you accept it even if left 100% creative freedom ?

 

[Goral]

Really? Is how easy is something what we are talking about now?

You need to learn to express what's on your mind better then. Initially what you were talking about was that humanoid aliens aren't alien at all, they're just humans in costumes which I disagreed with. Me bringing up the financial issue is very relevant here because otherwise you're just rumbling for the sake of rumbling knowing full well that what you want can't be achieved. Instead of trying to show how superior you are and writing what you weren't writing about ("i wasnt talking only about biology and appearance") you should have answered my question but it seems that you're purposefully vague expecting others to read your mind.

I already fucking did [given examples of aliens].

No you didn't, you just threw the names of some of the most known sci-fi authors.Ironically the only examples of aliens you've given were Star Trek aliens which you supposedly hold in low regard :D.

As for "Ardryci" google Ardrites but had you read Lem's Star Diaries you would most likely recognize that name even in Polish form. But OK, since you mentioned Lem give me an example of an alien from his books (other than Ardites) that would fit your criteria.

EOT from my side, continue your rumblings if you wish.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

You need to learn to express your mind better then.

Cant reduce my mind or language to your level of stupidity.
For the third fucking time, i am not talking about special effects and grand visual you dumb fuck.

No i havent read every single story Lem wrote, but that doesnt really explain any of your moronic statements and you simply require me to google all of it again!
How fucking stupid are your?

Also, you mentioned those as "not scientifically accurate" as if that was the subject of the argument, and AS IF IT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING!

No you didn't, you just threw the names of some of the most known sci-fi authors.

I didnt throw out anything i listed a few, and if you read any you would know several examples. Since you are so fucking stupid and ignorant, you dont.
And even if i mentioned a few... like Gaijin, or Ghosts, Solaris, or any other, what the fuck are you going to say about it?
That it would be too expensive glabber blubbgg bllrrgghh?

Ironically the only examples of aliens you've given were Star Trek aliens which you supposedly hold in low regard :D.

Yes... ironically... right-e-o.
Seeing how i listed those as examples of NOT ALIENS YOU DUMB CRETIN.

 

[Vault Dweller]

That’s hardly an explanation.

YOU: Let’s make a small-scale game to help us fund the next game.

NOW: The small-scale game is selling poorly so let’s take two additional years the next time to make a full-fledged sequel instead of a small game.

Round 1:

Back then we had a year of pre-production, so we had two options: do nothing or make a game in 10 months + 2 months of post-release support. Naturally, we decided to make a game for all the reasons I mentioned in the first article. It did well enough for a 10-month game and the party-based experience (code, design, balance, feedback) was vital. So far so good, no regrets or disappointments, definitely the right decision.

Round 2:

The starting point is that we want to do better. I'm talking about the design, not sales. We can improve our full-scale design and I believe Colony Ship will be a much better game, but we can't improve the tactical spin-off design in 10 months. So we can say 'who cares, it's like running a KS campaign to make 200k' but our primary consideration is design. How many times can we offer 50 linear fights? We already talked (internally) about stretching the development time to 16-24 months and adding complex mechanics, but once we got there, once we started thinking in terms of 2 years, the next logical question was 'what else can we do in 2-3 years?'. It wasn't a single conversation, we discussed it for months and there were other options (one that we're still considering).

This tentative sequel idea is promising, so I presented it to see what people think.

Waait wut, Colony Ship 2?? Didn't even realize teh first one was out yet

The alien culture will play a central role in the setting. I don't want to do a reskinned middle ages with fucked up names for gods and kings. Until recently I didn't see an interesting angle which is why we didn't consider it before. Now that we have a good idea that survived MRY's enhanced interrogation, it needs time to develop and evolve. If we start thinking about it after Colony Ship is released, it will be too late.

Cool about the publisher. Wouldnt you accept it even if left 100% creative freedom ?

No such thing. The money is an investment not Renaissance-era patronage. Someone invests money into your game to make more. If your "creativity" gets in the way...

 

[MRY]

MRY
Do you have anything to add? Maybe tell us about that other idea that has been discarded?

Why would I share someone else's idea that he had decided not to post?

Anyway, I shared some of the worry about looking at sequel ideas so long before the release of CSG, but Vince persuaded me that his mind works differently from mine -- this is less the allure of a future project drawing him off the hard work of a current project and more a matter of making sure his subconscious is doing preproduction on the right thing. It seems like if anyone has earned the benefit of the doubt on this, it's him, since he has survived very long Valley Forge winters.

Cool about the publisher. Wouldnt you accept it even if left 100% creative freedom ?

No such thing. The money is an investment not Renaissance-era patronage.

Was there such freedom even in the Renaissance? Surely you mean, "... not a Kickstarter throwaway."

 

[Black Angel]

Dungeon Rats certainly did well compared to other small-scale tactical RPGs, but that doesn't mean much because the potential of such games is very limited (as the numbers show, even if you compare the first 6 weeks of the year: AoD 7,110 – $24,316, DR 1,562 – $4,800, even though AoD was released a year earlier. One of the problems is that we can't do better in 10 months and if we switch to a 2-3 years schedule to add more depth and complexity, might as well do a proper sequel and not a small -scale tactical spin-off. At least that's the idea.

The alien culture will play a central role in the setting. I don't want to do a reskinned middle ages with fucked up names for gods and kings. Until recently I didn't see an interesting angle which is why we didn't consider it before. Now that we have a good idea that survived MRY's enhanced interrogation, it needs time to develop and evolve. If we start thinking about it after Colony Ship is released, it will be too late.

Even then, will you guys consider post-poning the tentative sequel in favor of that Inquisition RPG? It *might* be good to pace and preserve your creativity juices for a bit. Kinda like doing DR after AoD, since it's a spin-off with a lot of completely different gameplay mechanics added to already established system. And you said it yourself, it was good experience that helps in the making of CS.

Still, if you guys lean more towards the idea of making a sequel immediately, I think there's actually more room to avoid creating "more of the same". You're planning to move the setting from an isolated colony ship straight to the new, alien planet, that practically counts as being in a different setting altogether, even though it's the same universe. Reading all the updates to CS, I'd assume the economy, and thus the gameplay mechanics and features, will be 'limited' when compared to the tentative sequel which will obviously be bigger (and hopefully better). Reading your plans for the tentative sequel also gave me a vague impression that CS1 to CS2 will somewhat play out like Gothic 1 to Gothic 2. A completely isolated setting at first, reflected by overall limited amount of resources and somewhat downplayed gameplay features (like crafting). And then boom, the sequel plays out in a far bigger setting with the previously downplayed gameplay features now involved in much bigger roles, and an opportunity to give players that feel of 'homecoming' by getting access to the old setting as completely separate gameworld (I hope you guys will consider putting the ancient Colony Ship as a possible separate gameworld that players can access later on in the sequel). My only gripe with Gothic 2, coming straight from Gothic 1, is how they changed the damage formula (I assume it's to accommodate the new skill system), which resulted in even the best armors rendered almost useless because skilled enemies can critically hit nearly 100% of the time.

 

[MRY]

Right, I forgot to add that in my post: Vince's theory of sequels is that they have to be obviously not more of the same to survive. Sometimes that's done with a significant engine change (as in AAAs) but here I think it's accomplished by a totally different setting (outdoors rather than indoors, totally different tech level, and addition of aliens and psionics).

 

[Jaedar]

I think psionics is a bit silly but a clash between
a) aliens with superior theoretical knowledge but no infrastructure and few remaining 'superior artifacts'
b) natives with established countries, supply chains, rivals, etc
could make for a really cool setting.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Even then, will you guys consider post-poning the tentative sequel in favor of that Inquisition RPG? It *might* be good to pace and preserve your creativity juices for a bit. Kinda like doing DR after AoD, since it's a spin-off with a lot of completely different gameplay mechanics added to already established system. And you said it yourself, it was good experience that helps in the making of CS.

DR was a pure joy to make because for once we had all the systems and assets (whereas right now we're working mostly on the systems and assets not the content). The proposed sequel would allow us to keep most of the systems in place as the firearms, human armor, character system, etc won't change. The Inquisition RPG would call for a completely different system and, most importantly, it will be very heavy on unique character models (demons and such). We'd probably have to hire someone to focus just on such models. Spellcasting would be a major new element, etc. It's doable, of course, but it's 2 years of working on the infrastructure again before we start on the content. That brings us right back to a tactical spin-off in between and whether or not to go with 10 months or 16-24.

 

[Binky]

The sequel should be both Colony Ship 2 and Age of Decadence 2; all they need is for the alien world at which the colony ship has arrived to be the same world as the setting for Age of Decadence.

The Dueling Weasels™

 

[ScrotumBroth]

Well, I'm a sucker for space, so of course a sequel sounds great. But if you don't tie ending of first game with the sequel, it will piss me off. There is nothing worse.

 

[hivemind]

make the aliens blue and bisexual

 

[Vault Dweller]

Is there any other kind?

 

[ragnor]

Sequels medieval alien civilization idea gives me slight Rocannon's World vibe, so i'm intrigued .

 

[Vault Dweller]

I wonder how it will be explained why the colonists landed in an area full of those aliens (unless this planet is so densely populated there is no square meter without them present). I would think they would sooner choose an area where potentially hostile creatures would be in as low numbers as possible.

That's easy. First, it's an arid world not Eden with endless green plains and rivers. The landing site should have access to water and preferably some raw materials. Such sites would hardly be left unclaimed. Second, it's an old cargo ship never designed for landing. You'll be lucky if it doesn't fall apart when it enters the atmosphere, so precision landing is definitely out of the question. Third, it's not like the natives would ignore the visitors. The ship doesn't have to land right in the middle of their busiest intersection to get their attention.

 

[Marten Broadcloak]

DR was a pure joy to make because for once we had all the systems and assets (whereas right now we're working mostly on the systems and assets not the content). The proposed sequel would allow us to keep most of the systems in place as the firearms, human armor, character system, etc won't change.

But that means your sequel would be a game where only the surface content would be new. Don't you think iterating on game systems is the key for a successful sequel? I mean, six years at least before the release of the game, you're already telling us there won't be anything new at its core. If you're only changing the skin of the armors and the name of the factions, you might as well make an expansion pack. Which would be interesting, because if I remember it right your company never tried that and perhaps it would sell really well?

By the way, thank you for writing all this. This kind of transparency is really unique in the video games industry.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

Ahem...

IF the ship was not designed to land... then it cannot land and will in fact fall apart, explode and disintegrate during any such attempt.
Wasnt that considered before the colonists got onto the ship and blasted away? You know, landing on some world once they got there? Has anyone thought about that?

Also, if precision landing is "out of the questions"... then how can it land near some a site with water and raw materials?
Does the ship have any means of reconnoitering and studying the planet surface from distance, before it tries to "land"? Especially considering its internal problems and strife?
If not - say goodbye to landing near any such nice site.
Whats the land to ocean surface ratio there? Wanna fall into the ocean maybe? Any different climates? Nah? Just... arid?

Now, if this was me i would use precisely these impending problems as gameplay objectives with very delayed consequences during the first game.
It doesnt have to be anything too complicated.

If player aligned with this faction and managed to repair or construct some telescopes - then in the sequel the ship could land near a prosperous site because it would have something to discover them with before landing.
If he aligned with that faction then some sort of things could be achieved to prevent disintegration during atmospheric entry. Like i dunno... building a giant atmosphere entry heat shields.
Or some sort of propulsion that will prevent it from just smacking into the planet and leaving a nice crater.
IF not - well then only some parts of the ship survived the "fall" and the player start well off away from a good site with much less starting resources and numbers of colonists. In which case you need to get everyone to such a site and set up shop.
Mix and combine as it fits. Doesnt have to be faction allegiance at all.

edit: This would also remove the drudgery of pointless existence and meaningless gameplay in the first game, so i guess its off!

In the next game this can be started through now usual import of the saves from previous game, or just by choosing from starting slides.

Not that i know anything about anything.
Lets just have a fucking freighter land on a planet despite not being built to land on planets, flying blind right onto a well watered and mineral/materials rich spot - by accident! It was just lucky.
And the planet also has human breathable atmosphere, no helmets and air needed. And biology-chemistry-food is just right for humans and the first time anyone sees a dick snake they should try to touch it!

Well, in my game you would all survive on Martian potatos for a long time and you would be required to contribute to the... agricultural efforts every day.
First game ever, especially an RPG in which you would have to poop to advance the plot!
- Finally something to make constitution a worthy stat.
Also... you would get extra reputation points for contributing extra... effort, and reputation penalties if you contribute too little.
Im trademarking this shit! Nobody touch it!

Also, alright Goral, sorry about that... but when some things start to repeat themselves i just run out of other things to say.
-... Im going to regret this, arent i?

 

[Vault Dweller]

DR was a pure joy to make because for once we had all the systems and assets (whereas right now we're working mostly on the systems and assets not the content). The proposed sequel would allow us to keep most of the systems in place as the firearms, human armor, character system, etc won't change.

But that means your sequel would be a game where only the surface content would be new.

Psionics will be a major new addition. There's more on it in this thread:
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,7753.msg155318.html#msg155318
^ starts there

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Country_Gravy]

Will the player character be able to Captain Kirk some blue alien skanks?

 

[Zanzoken]

What happens if Colony Ship doesn't meet your sales expectations? Will you change course for the next game or stick with the plan and hope for the best?

How much did the feedback you got from Feargus on last year's business update influence your change of heart on sequels?

 

[Vault Dweller]

What happens if Colony Ship doesn't meet your sales expectations? Will you change course for the next game or stick with the plan and hope for the best?

Low sales would most likely signal that the game is poorly designed and failed to meet the expectation of our fanbase. That alone would cause us to re-evaluate everything, not just the tentative sequel.

How much did the feedback you got from Feargus on last year's business update influence your change of heart on sequels?

Didn't influence at all. We aren't in the same boat so it would be silly to look at what a company with 200 employees does and try to do the same. I'm much more interested in Styg's and the Battle Brothers' guys' perspective as it's much closer to ours.

 

[HoboForEternity]

inb iron tower studio got bought by THQ nordic