Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Temple+ Support archive

Status
Not open for further replies.

Heinous Hat

Scholar
Joined
May 1, 2015
Messages
188
Also, one very small thing that oddly I miss - at some point the Co8 mod pack 'deleted' Elmo's dialogue and Otis' response when Elmo first sees his brother in Nulb - "Hey, it's my brudder Otis! Hello brudder!" .... "Hey Elmo, how are you, how are mom and dad?" or however it all went...Not sure if it's a flag or what happened, but I thought it helped a bit with immersion and it doesn't trigger anymore. Not sure if that's an easy fix or even worthwhile but I thought I would mention.

I was looking for this a while back after coming across it in gazra's guide. It's spoken dialogue, right? I don't think I've ever heard it play. I have Elmo in my current test game for that purpose.

From what I gather, it's possible for an NPC who has no spoken dialogue at a given point to be prioritized over someone more appropriate. Thus you get nothing. Did you have other NPCs besides Elmo?

With the merchant refresh, I think it's one week. If you buy something though, it might replace that item faster. Not sure how that currently works.
 

Heinous Hat

Scholar
Joined
May 1, 2015
Messages
188
The temple+ addition of caster level (CL) to the item description for scrolls has magnified what I'm guessing to be a vanilla bug/feature...

Going by this table, casters should improve the CL imparted to scribed scrolls every odd level. So every 2 levels after 1st, it should increment, giving you a progression of... CL1 for 1st and 2nd level, CL2 for 3rd and 4th level, CL3 for 5th and 6th level... and so on. So it would take until 17th level to max it out at CL9. Since you can't choose to scribe at a lower CL in ToEE, this is an automatic assignment.

However, what the game appears to do is simply increment the CL every odd level, but 1:1 with the caster level. So the progression is effectively doubled and the even level CL scrolls are skipped. You start at CL1 and get CL3 at 3rd level, CL5 at 5th level, CL7 at 7th level and have maxed it out by 9th level.

This obviously devalues spell preparation. Even if there remain some spells you're better off preparing (anything with a saving throw and opposed DC) they easily fit into your daily list with little competition. Add to that the lack of AoOs when casting from a scroll (known bug or oversight) and you can trod mindlessly through the game with a giant pile of paper spells. This is one of those bugs that clearly favors the player, but I'd not classify it as a good thing.

This has probably been brought up previously, but it was a difficult issue to track due to lack of the CL value in the item description. Which is a swell addition :hug:

The other problem that suddenly jumps out is the unrestricted inventory stacking behavior, where similar scrolls with different CLs are converted to one value... I think it's "last one in", not sure. This one, you can sort of work around if you're careful.

So in short...

- scroll CL progression is too fast NAB
- No AoO when scroll casting is way too friendly FIXED
- Unrestricted inventory stacking behavior eats scrolls FIXED

self check: Please tell me if I'm horribly misunderstanding 3.5 ed scroll rules :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

guinness22

Novice
Joined
Mar 5, 2016
Messages
12
Also, one very small thing that oddly I miss - at some point the Co8 mod pack 'deleted' Elmo's dialogue and Otis' response when Elmo first sees his brother in Nulb - "Hey, it's my brudder Otis! Hello brudder!" .... "Hey Elmo, how are you, how are mom and dad?" or however it all went...Not sure if it's a flag or what happened, but I thought it helped a bit with immersion and it doesn't trigger anymore. Not sure if that's an easy fix or even worthwhile but I thought I would mention.

I was looking for this a while back after coming across it in gazra's guide. It's spoken dialogue, right? I don't think I've ever heard it play. I have Elmo in my current test game for that purpose.

From what I gather, it's possible for an NPC who has no spoken dialogue at a given point to be prioritized over someone more appropriate. Thus you get nothing. Did you have other NPCs besides Elmo?

With the merchant refresh, I think it's one week. If you buy something though, it might replace that item faster. Not sure how that currently works.


Yes, spoken dialogue when you walk up to Otis in Nulb either outside at his anvil or inside his building with Elmo in the party, it used to spark a dialogue that now that I think of it I believe Otis actually started...going from memory "Hello Elmo, how are you? How are mom and dad?" then "It's my brudder! My brudder Otis! How ya doin' brudder?"..."Just fine Elmo, you aren't drinking too much are you?"..."Nope!"....something like that.

If I recall it disappeared with Co8 8x for some reason. My current playthrough is 2 PC's and Elmo and it still doesn't spark, Otis just never recognizes Elmo anymore whether or not he's the only NPC in my party. Small thing, but I do miss it as Elmo and Otis are my favorite NPCs. I've probably played through every Co8 mod pack since 4x, and the dialogue was always there regardless of party composition.

Without Temple+ I could get most merchants to refresh virtually daily, it's noticeable now that it takes longer and I have to admit I actually like it better. Always seemed kind of goofy to me that Amario would have 360 arrows and 100 bolts along with multiple masterwork bows of all strength ratings plus crossbows, armor and shields every day! haha. I do notice that Brother Smyth seems to refresh near-daily but all others are slower. Brilliant.

Absolutely loving the Temple+ upgrades guys...again thank you all so much.
 

Sitra Achara

Arcane
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
1,859
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
The temple+ addition of caster level (CL) to the item description for scrolls has magnified what I'm guessing to be a vanilla bug/feature...

Going by this table, casters should improve the CL imparted to scribed scrolls every odd level. So every 2 levels after 1st, it should increment, giving you a progression of... CL1 for 1st and 2nd level, CL2 for 3rd and 4th level, CL3 for 5th and 6th level... and so on. So it would take until 17th level to max it out at CL9. Since you can't choose to scribe at a lower CL in ToEE, this is an automatic assignment.

However, what the game appears to do is simply increment the CL every odd level, but 1:1 with the caster level. So the progression is effectively doubled and the even level CL scrolls are skipped. You start at CL1 and get CL3 at 3rd level, CL5 at 5th level, CL7 at 7th level and have maxed it out by 9th level.

This obviously devalues spell preparation. Even if there remain some spells you're better off preparing (anything with a saving throw and opposed DC) they easily fit into your daily list with little competition. Add to that the lack of AoOs when casting from a scroll (known bug or oversight) and you can trod mindlessly through the game with a giant pile of paper spells. This is one of those bugs that clearly favors the player, but I'd not classify it as a good thing.

This has probably been brought up previously, but it was a difficult issue to track due to lack of the CL value in the item description. Which is a swell addition :hug:

The other problem that suddenly jumps out is the unrestricted inventory stacking behavior, where similar scrolls with different CLs are converted to one value... I think it's "last one in", not sure. This one, you can sort of work around if you're careful.

So in short...

- scroll CL progression is too fast
- No AoO when scroll casting is way too friendly
- Unrestricted inventory stacking behavior eats scrolls

self check: Please tell me if I'm horribly misunderstanding 3.5 ed scroll rules :)
Err doesn't the table say the spell's caster level tracks with the caster's level? That seems ok to me. It's the spell level that tracks on a 1:2 ratio (i.e. the spell slot level).

You're right about no AoOs, and even worse, it ignores getting Silenced! It's because it runs through the Use Item action I think. Should be fixable.
Fixed no AOOs for scrolls
Fixed casting from scroll while silenced


Same for inventory stacking, I'll hook some code to prevent different levels from stacking.
Fixed stacking scrolls of different levels

I'll also give it the same treatment I gave Wands, because right now you can scribe high Caster Level scrolls at no extra cost, rendering them more powerful than wands.
Done in v1.0.70

Edit:
Got an email request for fixing the magic domain bug, putting it here so I don't forget

Is is possible to fix the magic domain bug? It should allow clerics to use wands/scrolls at half their level (at least lvl 1).
Fixed v1.0.20
 
Last edited:

Heinous Hat

Scholar
Joined
May 1, 2015
Messages
188
That's why I ended with a pseudo disclaimer :D

Seems I've committed a terminology cock up here and thus, bad analysis. I was reading the CL value on the scroll as the effective spell level, but that's actually derived according to the table, or, half the caster level (rounded up).

OK, makes sense. The reason you never see an even numbered CL is that they're irrelevant. I'll go through it again.

Sorry about that, chief.
 

Heinous Hat

Scholar
Joined
May 1, 2015
Messages
188
Co8 8.1.0 + Rudy's Item Mod 0.8 + Temple+ 142

@guiness22, I was confused by Rudy's Item Mod. I thought you were referring to the old Technicolor Dreamcloak mod, which got merged into co8.

It looks pretty interesting, will have to try it out. I don't know that you'll get the intended results running it with temple+ at the moment though. If you installed that to ToEE's /data directory, some files will be superseded by what's in /tpdata. You could try installing it there instead, however, Rudy's files would then end up taking precedence over what's packed in co8fixes.dat. Either way, you might be see some issues.

Took a cursory look at Rudy's mod and it looks like there are conflicts that would require a merge. Sitra could probably say for sure.
 

Sitra Achara

Arcane
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
1,859
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
Actually I recall taking Rudy's protos.tab as a base for the co8fixes.dat because I expected many players would install it. IIRC the other files in the mod are not overridden in Temple+ so putting them in tye data folder i fine but I'll have to check to make sure.

At any rate one of the things to take care of for next release is proper in-game module switching, and adaptation of the co8 modules and other patches such as Rudy's mod to Temple+ compatible .dat files.

Oh and re. Smigmal, I think I know what's up, will check when I get back home.

Didn't really alter inventory respawns though, I think that was changed in Co8 8.1 to be more sensible.
 
Last edited:

Heinous Hat

Scholar
Joined
May 1, 2015
Messages
188
I was going to take Rudy's mod for a spin after guiness22 mentioned it, but a quick diff gave me pause.

Particularly, the protos.tab, but also a number of .mes files contain additions, omissions and changes on either side of the comparison. Maybe his current is a later update?
 

guinness22

Novice
Joined
Mar 5, 2016
Messages
12
I was going to take Rudy's mod for a spin after guiness22 mentioned it, but a quick diff gave me pause.

Particularly, the protos.tab, but also a number of .mes files contain additions, omissions and changes on either side of the comparison. Maybe his current is a later update?


Thanks guys. Ya was a little worried by Rudy's for the exact reasons stated, but since Temple+ was in beta and some folks at Co8 were reporting 'no issues' I thought what the heck, give it a go...I really have been pretty issue free other than what I've reported. And only one single crash (where I had a number of spell effects still active and I changed maps - players froze, then crash).

Rudy's does install to TOEE\data whereas obviously Temple+ goes into TOEE\tpdata...so maybe no overwrites? (I am certainly not an expert just an old guy who likes to play these games)

thanks
g22
 

Sitra Achara

Arcane
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
1,859
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
Argh, looks like I remembered wrong... I guess I *wanted* to incorporate Rudy's file, hehe. Comparing protos.tab is a huge pain in the ass...

I'll probably change it to apply temple+ overrides to specific lines, since I only changed a few things in the protos anyway.

As it is, yeah, many of Rudy's files will be overridden by Temple+.

Also, fixed the Smigmal bug (game.counters bug).
 
Last edited:

guinness22

Novice
Joined
Mar 5, 2016
Messages
12
Argh, looks like I remembered wrong... I guess I *wanted* to incorporate Rudy's file, hehe. Comparing protos.tab is a huge pain in the ass...

I'll probably change it to apply temple+ overrides to specific lines, since I only changed a few things in the protos anyway.

As it is, yeah, many of Rudy's files will be overridden by Temple+.

Also, fixed the Smigmal bug (game.counters bug).


Thanks SA. FWIW just ran through the Smigmal battle, she does summon her assassins now, but skips the first part of the interactive dialogue - "What? Where am I?" etc etc..."You are in the depths of an evil temple" etc etc...and instead jumps right to "I am Smigmal Redhand, lehman of Falrinth, leader of the tower brigands and master assassin. You have met your doom!" (but maybe that's because I already killed Falrinth? so she doesn't mess around?)

thanks
g22
 

Sitra Achara

Arcane
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
1,859
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
Argh, looks like I remembered wrong... I guess I *wanted* to incorporate Rudy's file, hehe. Comparing protos.tab is a huge pain in the ass...

I'll probably change it to apply temple+ overrides to specific lines, since I only changed a few things in the protos anyway.

As it is, yeah, many of Rudy's files will be overridden by Temple+.

Also, fixed the Smigmal bug (game.counters bug).


Thanks SA. FWIW just ran through the Smigmal battle, she does summon her assassins now, but skips the first part of the interactive dialogue - "What? Where am I?" etc etc..."You are in the depths of an evil temple" etc etc...and instead jumps right to "I am Smigmal Redhand, lehman of Falrinth, leader of the tower brigands and master assassin. You have met your doom!" (but maybe that's because I already killed Falrinth? so she doesn't mess around?)

thanks
g22
Yep, it's exactly as you said.

Also fixed the Otis issue in b748.

P.S. I gotta say, the shortened loading times really make it easier to fix scripting errors...
 
Last edited:

Black

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
1,872,654
Found something: if you fail to disarm the trapped Jarroo's chest, it explodes (remains armed) but still gives you exp.
Fixed in 1.0.11 (co8 version)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

guinness22

Novice
Joined
Mar 5, 2016
Messages
12
Yep, it's exactly as you said.

Also fixed the Otis issue in b748.[/QUOTE]


That is outstanding, thanks! Tempting me to start a parallel playthrough from the start again! The one I am on is rather interesting with 2 characters multiclassed, Elmo, Otis and a brief joining by Burne and Rufus to try and tackle the third level of the Temple...

Agree re loading times, one of the many items of awesomeness contained herein....

EDIT - just fired up my game again, Temple 3rd level with Otis and Elmo in my party and the dialogue triggered! haha brilliant! Had missed that, nice to see the brothers actually recognize each other again!

g22
 
Last edited:

Heinous Hat

Scholar
Joined
May 1, 2015
Messages
188
Getting a corrupt tooltip in pre+748... save uploaded

The encumbrance tooltip for a specific character is spitting out garbage... the box doesn't render correctly. To reproduce in the save game, select the wizard (Uncle Bob), he's the 3rd character. Bob has severe strength damage from the Earth Temple spiders. The enc tooltips for the other characters look ok.

In motion, the tooltip is actually a scrambly mess. Looks like this in a still...

z0bCQhC.png


Other...

Noticed that the Otis and Elmo voiced dialogue works now :). I didn't realize this was interactive dialogue (thought it was banter, triggered on scene change). So what I suggested earlier about NPC speaking priority obviously wasn't a factor.
 
Last edited:

Heinous Hat

Scholar
Joined
May 1, 2015
Messages
188
Additional notes on the above...

When I tried reloading the save, instead of corruption I get a crash when hovering over the total wight box. So that may happen with the save game I uploaded.

Also, manipulating an item in the character's inventory avoids the problem. Looks like his encumbrance doesn't update immediately after receiving the strength damage and leaves the tooltip in a bad state.
 

Sitra Achara

Arcane
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
1,859
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
Additional notes on the above...

When I tried reloading the save, instead of corruption I get a crash when hovering over the total wight box. So that may happen with the save game I uploaded.

Also, manipulating an item in the character's inventory avoids the problem. Looks like his encumbrance doesn't update immediately after receiving the strength damage and leaves the tooltip in a bad state.
Yep, all the queries for encumbrance state returned false values so it left the tooltip text buffer with junk values. Fixed in latest builds.

On that note, I'm freezing the link above at 748 because there's ongoing work on the Installer / Updater. Will update soon so you get a chance to test an installation & update cycle.
 

Heinous Hat

Scholar
Joined
May 1, 2015
Messages
188
We're using Tiopack. If the shoe fits... ;)

Right on. Was just curious whether it was just me with the broken DAT tool.

Trying out the configurator (pre+776)... looks good. It reports DLL patch2 (co8) and no problem with set options. As of several builds ago, temple+ stopped reading/writing TemplePlus.ini. Where are you storing the config data?
 

Sitra Achara

Arcane
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
1,859
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
We're using Tiopack. If the shoe fits... ;)

Right on. Was just curious whether it was just me with the broken DAT tool.

Trying out the configurator (pre+776)... looks good. It reports DLL patch2 (co8) and no problem with set options. As of several builds ago, temple+ stopped reading/writing TemplePlus.ini. Where are you storing the config data?

It's stored in C:\Users\%USERNAME%\Saved Games\TemplePlus
For that matter, so is the logfile.
 

Heinous Hat

Scholar
Joined
May 1, 2015
Messages
188
It's stored in C:\Users\%USERNAME%\Saved Games\TemplePlus
For that matter, so is the logfile.

Huh, how about that. A perfectly sensible location, completely untouched by anyone except yourselves and the PoE devs. Forgot it was there ;)
 

Sitra Achara

Arcane
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
1,859
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
Argh, looks like I remembered wrong... I guess I *wanted* to incorporate Rudy's file, hehe. Comparing protos.tab is a huge pain in the ass...

I'll probably change it to apply temple+ overrides to specific lines, since I only changed a few things in the protos anyway.

As it is, yeah, many of Rudy's files will be overridden by Temple+.

Alright, done. I've added protos_override.tab to allow overwriting specific lines (it's inside tpgamefiles.dat and co8fixes.dat for the Co8 version), and merged or made compatible the rest of the files. I haven't actually tested Rudy's mod though.

Oh, and apparently that Saved Games folder is supposed to be standard, except that most companies are still used to saving stuff in My Documents/My Games because it was the common practice in WinXP. Go figure.

BTW, release will probably be at the end of the day, perhaps pushing a little into Saturday (will still technically be Friday in the US :P)
 
Last edited:

Heinous Hat

Scholar
Joined
May 1, 2015
Messages
188
Quick note from a session with pre+780...

- Sleight of Hand doesn't show up on the radial menu: I had a rogue with 5 ranks in SoH; clicked directly on the target etc. No option...
 

Sitra Achara

Arcane
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
1,859
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
Quick note from a session with pre+780...

- Sleight of Hand doesn't show up on the radial menu: I had a rogue with 5 ranks in SoH; clicked directly on the target etc. No option...
Is the Rogue actually trained in SoH or is that just from bonuses (dex etc.)? SoH cannot be used as an untrained skill, much like Tumble.

Otherwise I am unable to replicate the error, loaded up a save and SoH works fine.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom