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Bard's Tale The Bard's Tale IV Pre-Release Thread [RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

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Sacred82

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3 attributes people. Even Diablo clones offer at least that much. It's really not hard to do.
 

Zombra

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3 attributes people. Even Diablo clones offer at least that much. It's really not hard to do.
They certainly could have made an effort to at least fake a callback to old school RPG systems. I'd love to see 10+ meaningful stats on the character sheet.

If I'm being really honest though ... stats didn't mean much in Wasteland or the original Bard's Tales. Sure, every point made a difference in the calculations somewhere ... but did you honestly care whether your Warrior had a 42 Strength or a 46? What difference did it make to your behavior? Fighters are strong, and if that manifests as a "+1 damage and knockback" ability instead of +.08% damage from a 4% higher stat, which has more impact on the experience?

In that light, it's hard to call this "half-assed" because the card game doesn't look bad at all. Think of it as building a deck instead of building a party and you'll have the right mindset to enjoy this.
Did you enjoy Diablo 3 by any chance?
It's OK if you only enjoy hard core number crunching RPGs, it really is. If that's you, and this goes for anyone reading this, bail out on BT4 now. I was disappointed too - but then I looked at what the game actually is and asked whether they did a good job of it. So far it looks like they did. "Soft core RPGs" are missing something we want, but they're not necessarily bad. And frankly AAADDD combat isn't some divine perfection of the form, it's just what you played when you were 12.

This isn't an apology or a defense of inXile's "change of direction" for the series. BT4 is not a sequel, any more than Fallout 3 is a sequel, and despite a very clear kickstarter pitch it was misleading to call this game Bard's Tale IV. But ... they're making what looks like a good game I'll enjoy, a tactical card game/RPG hybrid, nothing more nor less, with combat more complex and engaging than anything in the original series, so yeah.

Think of it as building a deck instead of building a party and you'll have the right mindset to enjoy this.
Building a deck is for cucks mate. real men build character.
Disagree. Card games are fun. Try one sometime.
 

V_K

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It's OK if you only enjoy hard core number crunching RPGs, it really is. If that's you, and this goes for anyone reading this, bail out on BT4 now. I was disappointed too - but then I looked at what the game actually is and asked whether they did a good job of it. So far it looks like they did. "Soft core RPGs" are missing something we want, but they're not necessarily bad. And frankly AAADDD combat isn't some divine perfection of the form, it's just what you played when you were 12.
To be honest, my problem is less with deck-building aspects than with skill trees that get shoved up every arse these days, irrespective of whether they fit a particular game's style. It's a dumb system that works for Diablo clones and MMOs, but should have no place in proper RPGs.
 

Strange Fellow

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And frankly AAADDD combat isn't some divine perfection of the form, it's just what you played when you were 12.
The first Bard's Tale, which is the only game in the series that I have any experience with, did not have incredible combat, no, and this might well turn out better. The thing I liked best though was the map design, and as you note yourself InXile are unlikely to do anything even resembling that, let alone improve on it.

Truth be told I wasn't so crazy about Bard's Tale 1, and if InXile had been developing the exact same game today I wouldn't be over the moon about it. I was hoping though that when they inevitably stripped Bard's Tale 4 of mapping challenges that they'd make up for it with better combat/chardev, a la Wiz 8 (and arguably 6 and 7 as well).
 

Zombra

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To be honest, my problem is less with deck-building aspects than with skill trees that get shoved up every arse these days, irrespective of whether they fit a particular game's style. It's a dumb system that works for Diablo clones and MMOs, but should have no place in proper RPGs.
I like skill trees okay, depends on the game. It makes sense here as the abilities are essentially the "cards" you're building your "deck" with. Plus there are passive bonuses and yes even stat bonuses mixed in there. It's honestly far more interesting than "you levelled up, no decision to be made, now your fighter has +2% hit points and +1.4% chance to hit".

The first Bard's Tale, which is the only game in the series that I have any experience with, did not have incredible combat, no, and this might well turn out better. The thing I liked best though was the map design, and as you note yourself InXile are unlikely to do anything even resembling that, let alone improve on it.
Yeah, jury's still out on map design and my hopes aren't high. Playing the alpha/demo, the environment feels much "bigger" and blockier, mapped out with crayons instead of pencils, ruler, exacto knife. If that makes sense. They even had "decorative" doors that don't open in the alpha, it's like, jesus christ. I complained about this and they said in the real game those doors will open and lead to a more elaborate, branching layout. Trying to keep an open mind but like I said, my hopes aren't high.

Truth be told I wasn't so crazy about Bard's Tale 1, and if InXile had been developing the exact same game today I wouldn't be over the moon about it. I was hoping though that when they inevitably stripped Bard's Tale 4 of mapping challenges that they'd make up for it with better combat/chardev, a la Wiz 8 (and arguably 6 and 7 as well).
Wiz 8 is my gold standard for sure. Honestly ... and I'm thinking it through as I'm typing this ... again BT4 combat will be different from Wiz 8, but not worse. You haven't played card games, so you don't know the joy of combining things, countering things at just the right time, setting up with one card to knock down with a perfect combo ... trust me, it's fun as hell when it's done well. "Is it RPG?" Maybe not, but it's good.

Chardev ... well, in Wiz 8 yes, stats were finer grain, but was there decision making? The only significant decision was spell selection. Fighters etc. were pretty much "wind up and go". BT4 will be all about choosing good "cards" to make your party perform the way you want ... and for every character, not just spellcasters, which is huge incline in my opinion. I hope skill points are scarce so build decisions are critical.

The real test of the combat will be the difficulty. If it's as "accessible" as much of what we've seen ... i.e. childishly easy ... then yeah, that will be a death knell. Based on my experience with Wasteland 2 I think inXile can do a game that won't feel easy like that. It may look like a coloring book but I'm hopeful it's a substantial, tough card game.
 
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Strange Fellow

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well, in Wiz 8 yes, stats were finer grain, but was there decision making? The only significant decision was spell selection. Fighters etc. were pretty much "wind up and go".
Fighters (and rogues) yes, but for hybrid classes there's the dilemma of spellcasting vs melee capability, and for classes like monk you can decide to go for pure damage or critical hits, etc. I'll concede that most of the decision-making happens at character generation.

BT4 will be all about choosing good "cards" to make your party perform the way you want ... and for every character, not just spellcasters, which is huge incline in my opinion.
I don't agree with the need for "active" characters, I think ones that rely on passive abilities, like Wiz fighters, are perfectly fine in a party based game. And isn't the thing you're talking about just shuffling the decision making away from choosing classes over to choosing what your class will do? There are only four, after all - not enough to even have a party of all different classes. It's like that thing PoE was supposed to do, which with nine (?) classes was a pipe dream IMO. With four it's manageable.
It may look like a coloring book but I'm hopeful it's a substantial, tough card game.
I hope you're right. If you are, I'll be getting this for sure.
 

Zombra

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I don't agree with the need for "active" characters, I think ones that rely on passive abilities, like Wiz fighters, are perfectly fine in a party based game.
I meant that you have to make decisions about how to build your fighters at all. In Wiz 8 it's crank Strength and Con, crank Melee and Sword (or axe, big freakin difference). Here you'll choose stuff like do I want knockback abilities, passive damage distribution, single target, sweeps ... you can still have a fighter with just one big "hit him" card and tons of tanking passives, or a big bag of tricks with knockback and party rearrangement ... I don't know, it just seems like building every character will be fun and meaningful, not just the magic-users.

And isn't the thing you're talking about just shuffling the decision making away from choosing classes over to choosing what your class will do? There are only four, after all - not enough to even have a party of all different classes. It's like that thing PoE was supposed to do, which with nine (?) classes was a pipe dream IMO. With four it's manageable.
Jury's still out. It's not four classes, it's four "archetypes", each of which have 4-6 "subclasses" to specialize in. You can mix and match or make a "pure Paladin" or whatever. This is going to come down to how scarce skill points are. I expect a Practicioner (Sorcerer) and a Practitioner (Magician) will be just as different as a Sorc and Mag in the original games. Probably much moreso.

It may look like a coloring book but I'm hopeful it's a substantial, tough card game.
I hope you're right. If you are, I'll be getting this for sure.
I'll be posting my thoughts once it comes out. My biases are on my sleeve so hopefully you can interpret my impressions accordingly.
 

Strange Fellow

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In Wiz 8 it's crank Strength and Con, crank Melee and Sword (or axe, big freakin difference)
You shouldn't pump axe, axes are crap. You're attributing too much choice to wiz 8 there, buddy :dance:

I don't know, it just seems like building every character will be fun and meaningful, not just the magic-users.
Yep, but since there are so few classes, picking a subclass within an archetype may be the equivalent of choosing between classes like fighter, rogue, monk etc. within the role of "melee oriented party member" in Wiz 8. We'll see.
It's not four classes, it's four "archetypes", each of which have 4-6 "subclasses" to specialize in.
That is the official line, yes. From watching the video, however, the subclasses seem to me like just another skill or passive bonus, like an expanded version of Wiz 8 races. As class-based systems go, this seems very "loose", if you know what I mean.
I'll be posting my thoughts once it comes out. My biases are on my sleeve so hopefully you can interpret my impressions accordingly
Looking forward to hearing them, you're a trustworthy sort. :bro:
(I'd give you a real fist, but they don't seem to have materialized for me yet. I should bug the Administration about it.)
 

V_K

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I meant that you have to make decisions about how to build your fighters at all. In Wiz 8 it's crank Strength and Con, crank Melee and Sword (or axe, big freakin difference). Here you'll choose stuff like do I want knockback abilities, passive damage distribution, single target, sweeps ... you can still have a fighter with just one big "hit him" card and tons of tanking passives, or a big bag of tricks with knockback and party rearrangement ... I don't know, it just seems like building every character will be fun and meaningful, not just the magic-users.
Thing is, while skill trees might make fighters more interesting, they do it at the cost of making other classes boring. First, they all now play the same - use active ability, wait out a cooldown, rinse and repeat. Second, skill trees do not lend well to non-combat aspects of gameplay - they either get cut completely or relegated to gimmicks. And in (good) blobbers these aspects are as important as combat, because blobbers are about surviving the whole dungeon rather than individual encounters.
 

Zombra

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Thing is, while skill trees might make fighters more interesting, they do it at the cost of making other classes boring. First, they all now play the same - use active ability, wait out a cooldown, rinse and repeat. Second, skill trees do not lend well to non-combat aspects of gameplay - they either get cut completely or relegated to gimmicks. And in (good) blobbers these aspects are as important as combat, because blobbers are about surviving the whole dungeon rather than individual encounters.
Sure. Don't disagree with any of that.

I will repeat though that you need to let go. "An 'RPG' should be like this, a 'blobber' should be like that." BT4 isn't about living up to the labels.
 

IHaveHugeNick

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Starcrawlers had quite a similar system and combat was fine.

It's a fun sci-fi crawler if you guys haven't tried it yet btw.
 

TT1

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Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
3:30 character creation spotlight video!



As expected, fairly simplistic stuff: pick a base class 'archetype' from 4 choices, pick a special ability race 'culture' from 7 choices, pick a portrait and voice from ? choices, then go to the skill tree which could be decently interesting.


There is something really wrong with art direction, on inxile. Again, the same problem as TTON: UI. Modern buttons and layout are completely out of tune with this game. Some months ago they had those blue laser lights for the grid and now they show this modern UI. Winamp skin vibe AGAIN.
 

Bester

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Couldn't you at least change the texture to make it look less cheap?

ae94dd14c64455bc905f759c07c7ac5b.jpg


b8f7bdb689e25e69688f4c08ad6e9122.png
 

Strange Fellow

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Oh no, they got the design of a nondescript shield straight from the UE asset store, I am so upset! The integrity of the entire project is in tatters!
 

TT1

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Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Modern buttons and layout are completely out of tune with this game.

Exactly. How hard can it be to create a combat grid that looks like stone, metal, vines, whatever. Instead you get this scifi look.

Just remember that this was even worst some months ago



So, imagine that this style was approved by somebody and they changed after players feedback...
 

getter77

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It will 100% come down to exactly how things shake out on the skills and progression mechanisms---which is ironically also still the elephant in the room on Wasteland 3 and probably the greatest hurdle they need to definitively clear as Wasteland 2 fell to pieces as soon as you kicked the tires and Numenera seemingly lost the plot before you'd even have an impetus to care to. They've got to demonstrate some forward momentum here or this may well wind up with worse hooks than M&M X.
 

Lady_Error

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M&M X was just fine, though a bit short for my taste. In fact, it is the best blobber of the last 10-15 years, along with Grimoire.
 

getter77

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M&M X was fine, but it could've been so much more had they had more momentum from early on to carry the post release support and placate the publisher---but since the hooks weren't immediately apparent on top of some jank, they lost their shot and it just snowballed from there. :/
 

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