Bard's Tale The Bard's Tale IV Pre-Release Thread [RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

The second one must be a troll,right? Right guys?

 

counting up the skillpoints to level 30 you can almost be everything at once: a chief-commander-defender-veteran-champion

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

Kingcomrade

What's the point in that? Not encouraging to use the same class for a 2nd playthrough or use multiple of the same class in your party. They'll all end up the same way.

Like a where you can do nothing wrong. No matter how you distribute your points, you'll always end up with some kind of average streamlined mainstream build. I expected skilltrees allowing at max 2-3 subclasses at once, so skill evaluation would be more distinct and challenging.

I liked the Wiz8 system more, where you manually put points from 1-100 into the specific class skills...

 

Ah, now I see it on the last skilltree picture. They block the path to the other subclasses... so in the end it's indeed 3 subclasses at max

Edit: Though I'm still not sure what to think of it. So for instance, between Champion & Commander there are only 2 skills different (or 3 with the final one)... which makes both subclasses very similar. Therefore maybe one of them is kinda obsolete and leads again to the same average character builds...

 

To be fair, those commenters aren't wrong. This isn't like Bards Tale at all, most of the systems in BT 1-3 are as barebones as it gets.

In a way BT is the hardest project InXile embarked on so far, there really isn't much they can reuse from the original games, other than the lore and whatnot.

 

Of course u are right, it's only mockup. Btw. I now found that statement where it explicitly says "While it's impossible to gain every title and master every skill line, a true adventurer of legend may eventually master two or three.". Must have overlooked the first time. Still skeptical with this skilltree thing... reminds me more of a Might & Magic Heroes, Skyrim perks etc. than clean percentage stats, which you can improve on by adding infinite skillpoints...

 

Don't have to tell me, I didn't even back the thing.

 

Why?? If I mess up my build then it's my own fault. No need for hand-holding and streamlining.

This is something I always found dumb in most RPGs. If you can't wield a weapon or slip into an armor, just because you haven't reached the "Level" or "Tier" yet (or because you don't belong to the specific class, such a in Wiz8 only a Samurai can equip a a Tosei-Do, while others can't). This is just nonsense. Everyone should be able to wear everything. If a fighter can't use a mage staff, it only makes sense so much, in that he isn't able to invoke magic. But it shouldn't mean he can't equip it at all, as he could still use it as a stick to poke an enemy. Same as a mage should be able to wear heavy armor, even though he hasn't "skilled" it. He may be slowed down and lose attribute points (being much more immobile), but yet profit a bit from the protection. Don't know how strict these things will be in BT4, but in Drakensang these rules were very restrictive and shit.

What does that mean? That I can omit most of the skilltree and instead only choose to get a bundle of attribute points, which I can freely spend on "strength, health, dexterity..." ? So I can min/max my character in my own way?

 

I do like that they at least kept some flavor of going back to SB for the review board, even if I preferred the original implementation.

 

the butthurt of tards who think this game should play exactly like an 80's game is delicious.

 

Having 2 specializations mid-game sounds good and reasonable. Otherwise it would have been a balancing nightmare anyway, as the confirmed classes are (IIRC): Fighter, Paladin, Monk, Rogue, Hunter, Cleric, Bard, Magician, Conjurer. If they all come with 5 specializations... that's still a lot of tuning.

 

Yes, 2 classes sounds reasonable. I'm just afraid with this skill system it's not possible to specialize your characters enough.

In Wizardry 8, for example, you chose a class and got special skills for that class from the beginning. These special skills could be enhanced in small increments after your own liking from 1-100% after level up. If you changed to another class during midgame, some new special skills were added (starting from 0% or so). The skill system allowed to specialize and made sense.

Now with the skill tree in BT4 I'm not even sure what's the point of it... a skill to "wear heavy armor", a skill to "wield large weapons"... it sounds ridiculous, restrictive and unnecessarily complicated to me. A character which is classified as a "fighter" shouldn't be dependent on "unlocking a skill" just to use something. Instead the effect of the armor/weapon should depend on his experience with it (or points being manually spend on).

 

Eh, it's less restrictive than equipment usability being tied to unchangeable classes, or being tied to unchangeable attributes that were picked in chargen, which is how many RPG's handle it.

 

I don't know, fighters in Wiz8 turned out largely the same... strength and dexterity heavy damage dealers were almost always better than purely defensive fighters (as gains from constitution were a bit low). The fact that the only special attack available to them was Berserk didn't help. I think even the basic "bleed and bash" maneuver in BTIV shows that fighters will be more versatile. Armor skills are a bit gamey, but it's cool that they add active abilities like pushing enemies.

 

Ok, so it's the same as in Dragon Age. A melee fighter can choose a skill on attack, like magicians choose a spell.

Not sure with this one. It seems like you are required to *unlock* the 'Great Weapon wielding' skill, just to *equip* a great sword. Like "you found that great sword, but can't use it unless you've unlocked the skill 'Great Weapon wielding' and additionally reached Tier 3 to equip it"... which would be very restrictive. In that case you are also not able to equip your (naked) magician with heavy armor, even if you carry around 20 armors in your bag... just because the "tier and skilltree rules say so".

If *unlocking* were just for additional attack/defense abilities for combat, it would make sense. But if it's also for *equipping* items in general, it's nonsense. Which one is it?

 

Seriously, I have no expectation Bard's Tale IV will approach the depth of a Wizardry 8.

Doesn't mean it won't be a serviceable dungeon crawler.

 

You're probably right... and besides, it's not that we can expect many other games in the same category (and AAA visuals) anyways...

 

They are in a complicated position... dungeon crawlers are a very hardcore niche, dominated by Japanese games. Most are hardcore Wizardry throwbacks like Elminage and Stranger of Sword City, and even the "mainstream" titles like Etrian Odissey or Persona 4 are way more complex than the average modern BioWare/Bethesda game.

Elminage and SoSC sold like crap (10k on Steam each), so trying to go full hardcore would be a horrible business decision. But Legend of Grimrock and Darkest Dungeon proved that it can be done, IF you have a nice hook, visual style and TONS of positive press. Even so, InXile has to take a very hardcore sub-genre, with first-person exploration, mazes, parties, turn-based combat and somehow make it cool & palatable to modern audiences.

IMHO that's a fool's errand, but that's why it's so interesting to watch it unfold...

 

Honestly, I don't see the problem here. Just because your name tag says "fighter" on it doesn't mean that you're proficient at swinging a 30 pound hammer without killing yourself ... that is something you kind of have to learn, and (important) not all "fighters" learn it.

And putting on a 100 pound suit of armor is not something just everyone can do while climbing around in caves and slogging through swamps. I am completely OK with tihs being a hard gated skill instead of forcing the system to either completely ignore the complications involved or model a complex pain in the ass encumbrance and stamina system. So no, your mage can't just put on plate mail and dance around like it's a tank top and panties. And yes, in before you link the video of the guy doing a cartwheel in armor. That doesn't change anything.

 

Wiz8 is an impressive concept but there are flaws in execution, and that's why I think BTIV could match it. It doesn't have the same scope though, world building wise.

A Wiz8 that makes better use of the communication skill, doesn't have money loops like alchemy, makes better use of characters' special abilities like alchemists brewing potions, generally treats mages better, and gives fighters more combat options would be hard to beat. As it is I think the character building and combat resolution could be superior in BTIV.

 

Hm well, in Wiz8 you could indeed hit or kill yourself, if your skill wasn't good enough (or throwing an acid potion into your own party)
But if you were training it, you could still master it. Putting this option into a skilltree or specific class is taking away the freedom.

Putting on armor is also not something that should require a profession. It's not exactly high arts, is it? Actually a temporary reduction of the magician's stamina and agility would make sense. Maybe there are situations in the game where you prefer having your mage protected in a heavy armor, rather than a coat. Maybe it's only because the armor has some attributes, that benefit the magician in a certain way? (since talk is, that item attributes make up a greater portion of your overall abilities...).

 

Right, but BT4 does not have skill levels. It's either an ability you have or you don't. Maybe it would be better to do an elaborate sliding skill system where every character has every skill and some classes are better at learning some skills than other classes ... but you're essentially talking about making up a whole new system ... or making Wizardry 9. I'd like Wizardry 9, but it's dumb to expect it here.

Again, you're advocating for some huge elaborate system where really none is necessary. It's fine for mages to not wear heavy armor "just because", and it's fine for some fighter classes to have limitations. Even your beloved Wizardry 8 has equipment restrictions on every single class.

You want a "realistic" game where everyone can use anything? Try Skyrim and let us know how you feel about it.

 

Man, someone with more left-over mental energy at the end of their day needs to engage you. There's a serious lack of quality conversation surrounding games worth taking about. I agree with you, but don't got it in me to poke you more and turn it into the start of a good conversation.

The whole crux of your argument, that it's a hardcore niche that only makes financial sense for inXile if they can make it palatable to modern audiences, is a formula most perfectly designed to piss off those very fans who make the project possible. Also known as: a fool's errand.

exhibit A :- Pillars of Eternity

 

I actually disagree here.

Pillars of Eternity was pitched as a true successor to IE games, made by people who actually worked on those. Obsidian was pushing all their street creed as old-school devs, and Baldur's Gate is still a legendary series that many people would love to see more of it - even fucking NeoGAF still voted BGII as the 13º best RPG of all time.

On the other hand, I don't think most BTIV backers are hardcore players of the originals hoping for a TRUE 1980's dungeon crawler. Not even the Codex voted Bard's Tale among its Top 70 RPGs and we've seen that many backers only know that shitty 2004 Action-RPG, or just wanted to help InXile with their next project. The Bard's Tale name carries a historical weight which makes for good PR, but most backers and even journos hyping it likely never played a single game in the series.

Even the old farts who actually played Bard's Tale I-III back in the days probably are into those "I want a short game I can play for 1 hour a week on my tablet after taking the kids to bed" kind of mentality... this is funded by nostalgia and Fargo's smiling face more than anything else, these people aren't out there playing 7 Mages, Swords & Sorcery, Elminage Gothic or Stranger in Sword City - those games all sell like garbage, despite being solid titles. Hell, fucking Wasteland 2 sold 4x more on Steam than Might & Magic X!

This is why this project is so bizarre... it arguably has the least "invested" audience of the big RPG kickstarters, yet they need to deliver on the most hardcore RPG sub-genre out there.

And even at its most dumbed-down and streamlined form, a game about a party of 8 characters exploring a maze-like dungeon in 1st person, solving puzzles and fighting in TB battles seems unpalatable for modern audiences...