The biggest problem with Elder Scrolls magic

SDIV: Maybe the 'No Mutants Allowed' forum.
Other forum suspects: Netgamers UK, Egosoft, Jade Empire.

 

I didn't like the magic creation system. It was boring, there was no gameplay in it. The alchemy system, now that was something.

I also agree with the notion that there should be a unifying element in magic... just like there should be in combat.
It's true that the system lacked strucute, the attributes governing weapon skills are a good example imo.
Like much in the game it feels like it's assembled more or less at random.

Morrowind reminds me of the Unreal Tournament mod Unreal 4 Ever... a plethora of weapons thrown into a mod. I liked to fool around with them in a botmatch, but I never felt compelled to really play a proper game.

 

The EDS system is a solution to one of the nagging questions of rpgs like Fallout, why does killing my enemies make me a better hacker? As you use a skill, you get better at it. Of course, its very hard to make such a system that isn't exploitable, and Bethseda hasn't succeeded yet... I doubt they'll succeed with Oblivion.

However, requiring a character to be a dedicated mage to know any magic strikes me as, undesirable. The ability to create "custom" classes is almost always a good thing, if properly balanced. Thats why(amoung other things) games like Fallout and Arcanum are so good.

 

Yup, I was on that forum. However, never been on netgamers UK, Egosoft, or Jade Empire. I haveno clue why I would be on Jade Empire, seeing as I don't own an Xbox or the game....

I'm not sure where you see much difference between the alchemy and spellmaking system. Only thing I can think of is that the Alchemy system uses in-game items and the spellmaking dosn't.

It is a fun system, and you can play around with the efects. Now it is possible to throw a bunch of crap together into one spell, but that generaly won't be efective.

 

Skills gained from stats and Perks increased stats and skills, so it was a structured system.

You build your way into what you want to be. Character development. You dont pick a shopping list and go WELL LOOK AT ME I PICKED ALL OPPOSITES ARNT I JUST SOME CRAZY COOL CLASS. No, it's dumb.

I ment that the character system sucks, not counting the other crappy features of the Elder Scrolls games.

 

It was roughly based around your stsats, true, but it honestly didn't make it much more structured. In the end I just chose stats to help me survive and skills that I might find useful, even if the two weren't related.

Anyways, with most other things in the elder scrolls game, the general idea is "You can throw a ton of random crap together, but it probably won't work as well as if you think out your character and put them in a single direction"...This is obviousely negated if you are looking for exploits, which unfortunetely morrowind had plenty of (theif with axe skill, antorach sign and alchemy, ect...), but those are balancing issues, not problems with the basic system.

 

First of all, "EDS" isn't supposed to mean Elder Scrolls, right? I don't get it. Don't use acronyms unless you can expect others to understand them. I didn't notice the learning method beind debated, so I don't see your point.

Why does it strike you at all? I mean, who said so? I liked how in Gothic, you couldn't just choose to have skills, you had to learn them. In general this meant finding a trainer, and in the case of magic this meant finding a mage. Since they didn't train anyone but members of their circle. That's why you had to become a mage to use runes.
I prefer that method over classical character creation. In fact, I once had a similar idea, where an RPG would be split into two parts - the first basically being an ingame character creation playing your character at a younger age.

You better should choose related stats and skills. Have you ever seen a blind marksman? That's why perception affecting - all - ranged weapons makes more sense than Endurance governing the Spear skill - but not Longblade or Axe, etc.

 

This strikes me as somewhat of a misunderstanding of the context of the system you see in Fallout and in other games. The concept behind the system is not as you suggest to get better at something by practicing in other. I never saw my characters in Fallout or other games using similar character development systems increase in a skill the more I trained in other. What I did see however were my characters deciding to use the experience they gained from doing several things to try and improve some other aspect of their own.

Also, the complaint you have seems to stem from your expectation that the system in Fallout and in other games should for some reason take on a realistic approach. If it really is based on that kind of expectation than the Elder Scrolls isn't that much more realistic as it misses the mark on representing the harm that comes with overuse of especialization in one or a couple of areas (ie, the more one focuses on something the more likely he is to lose focus of something else, neglecting other skills and thus seeing them decline with lack of use or training), and the inability to fully present to gamers the possibilities of gaining or improving several skills by training in other (ie, the more one focuses on using sword and shields the more likely it should be for one to come up with combat strategies that utilized both skills, if, again, your complaint is based on approaches to realism).

 

You could as well be talking about the TESCS. One part of my issue is that it really doesn't feel like part of the game, and I feel detached from the gameworld.
Not using ingame items seems quite relevant, but it also concerns how it works. The alchemy system is a bit of a puzzle, reasonably rooted in the gameworld. The spellmaker feels more like configuring a mod for Unreal Tournament, directly modifying abstract properties.
The complete freedom to adjust my spells properties does nothing for me. Creating spells is fine, but I would prefer a method that is rooted in the gameworld, connected to the lore of how magic works. Legend had a nice system. I really liked the rune magic in Ultima Underworld, even if you couldn't actually create your own spells. It would make a more interesting basis for spell creation however.

 

My thoughts, as pointless to the debate as they may be.

Main problem with TES (well, Morrowind really, since it's the only ES game I've so far played): No limits whatsoever. Each and every skill can be brought to 100%. Sure, you pick skills and some may not increase as quickly as others, but at least in the long run character creation and development choices will not be as crucial as in a game in which you're given a limited pool of points to spend.

As for the magick in Morrowind, I never quite liked the idea of spells being sold as any other commodity at the general stores (also, personally, I'd like magic to be something truly special, in the doors-only-openable-by-a-certain-spell-designed-for-this-very-purpose kind of special). Morrowind never quite delivered that feeling, and much less so than most other RPG's.

 

And this is the problem with the direction TES has taken since Daggerfall.

There is a ratchet effect with making the games 'everything available to everyone'. Once you take out restrictions (eg enchanting in Daggerfall only being available if you join certain guilds, and only at certain levels, turning into enchanting available instantly from tons of dudes just standing around waiting in Morrowind), then you *can't go back*.

It seems fairly easy for Beth to chuck out guilds, factions, quests, seasons, etc, BUT - suppose a writer sees that a new level of depth, atmosphere and sophistication can be achieved via a restriction - NO WAY - they'll be lynched by the I CAN'T DO WOT I WANT STRATE AWAY hordes.

So the series is kind of stuck...

 

I don't think developers are that responsive to noisy fans. If they think they can get more players by changing the game, and that enough of their old fans will grin and bear it and buy the game they expect not to be as good as the rest of the series, they'll probably do it. I haven't played it, but Invisible War is a good example. Hordes of fans were wailing about the scrapping of skills, complete lack of water, unified ammo, dumbed-down inventory and pretty much any other change they heard of (one of the biggest being its development for X-Box) but as far as I know the complaining didn't stop any planned changes.

 

As I recall, most of the cool spells require a couple of schools of magic to be really effective, but yes the idea of 'balance' is completely thrown ot the window, and even in daggerfall you could obliterate anything in the game at a very low level.

 

That is a perfectely fine aproach to magic. Having it as an exclusive achient secret type thing. It makes sence for that sort of thing. However in the TES universe, magic is a more universal thing. I'll try to find somthing on the imperial library, but I'll give you my quick version of the in-game lore about magic.

You have nirn, the mortal realm, then you have a bunch of deadric spheres, which apear as planets in the night sky. They aren't realy spheres though, it's just the way somones mind interprets them. They all float in oblivion, which is the night sky, and again, thats not realy what it looks like, but it's what mortal minds view it as due to it's complexity beyond our normal sence of dimention. Lastly you have the plane of magic (which has an actual name that exapes me at the moment), which is viewable as the stars, and are realy "holes" in oblivion, viewing out into a completely outside magical source. Larger stars are simply larger openings, with the largest being the sun. The magical power that floods over nirn is a raw force, just as electricity or the laws of physics are.

EDIT: hear is a link to a much better explantion of the magic and cosmology of the TES universe: http://til.gamingsource.net/cosmology.shtml

Therefore requiring people to learn from a mage, or join a guild as others have sugested just dosn't make sence with the already established TES lore.

Didn't fable try to do that? Anyways It might work, but the standard system is ment to represent your childhood experience as well as your natural traits. Playing through a childhood, or even part of it, would just feal like buisywork and be kinda booring.

 

You perfectly managed to miss the point completely. You also need a trainer to learn swordfighting. It's nothing to do with how special magic is, except that the only magic teachers in Gothic were the mages. However, becoming a mage didn't make the player a "dedicated mage" at all.

As for the part about the childhood being boring.. Well, someone might also find the first level of HL 1 or 2 boring.

 

You don't HAVE to lern it from mages. For instance, you can pick up a sword and start swinging it. You'll probably suck, but you can still swing it. You also might be a self tought mage, who learned the art on their own. Real worl experience might teach the mage more than any formal training. The option for a trainer (which should help) makes sence, but in no way should be REQUIRED.

First Levels of HL1/2= gets you into the atmosphere, sets up the story a little, then starts to builds up the tension/exitement very quickly, within the first 10-15 minutes your already doing somthing that feal exiting.

Childhood Levels that replace character creation= Long, tedious, character creation is much simpler and easier.

 

I'd like to interject with a few points. I think that Morrowind's "complete freedom of choice" is not without fault. Admirable, yes, but kind of weak in implementation.

My big complaint is that I never really felt like any of my character choices were acknowledged. Not picking on Hussar's examples here, since they are interesting...

"Now, how about creating a non-combat stealth oriented merchant who's secretly practicing conjuration and mysticism?"

Not bad, but since nobody in the world will react according to whether these "vices" are kept secret or not it can seem a bit hollow. Likewise there's never going to be a situation like -

Me: Hello again Dralasa, in my travels I came across a very curious artifact that I thought would take your fancy.

Dralasa: Curious indeed, my friend! Although I should never of told you of my penchant for all things Dwemer, I might actually have to pay you full price for this one. <chuckles>

"A peaceful pilgrim who wears no armor and uses only hand-to-hand or illusion spells to deal with his enemies?"

This one works a little better, since it's entirely up to the player to maintain their vows, but it's also purpose built for a subplot of religious prejudice, that I'm quite sure is MIA.


"A true battlemage?"

Hey, why not? Should make it easier to advance through the multiple guilds you can be a part of at any given time. Is there ever friction between the two? It would be an interesting roleplay to be someone who is only accepted with great reluctance into either "faction" and never really feels like thery belong to either.* (hah)

"A thief who exceles at illusion?"

I actually played as a pure thief, all skill and no hocus pocus jiggery pokery, in fact a complete disdain for all things magical. Stemmed from a bad experience with some Boots of Blinding Speed, you see. But without sharing that little summary here, it's all in my head, and you have to ask "why even play a game when I can just sit back and let my imagination run?"

Without some form of reaction, roleplay is kind of pointless. It would be like a D&D session where the DM ignores all interaction bar die rolls.

* My other big complaint is that I never felt like a part of anything. The guilds could just as easily have been a series of notes pinned to a board. I never felt like a star pupil, or brilliant new recruit, nor did I feel like a spurned new kid in town. I just felt...indifferent. Nearly every task I performed for a guild could have been farmed out to the lowest bidder.

Even as the leader of Legion forces, I was still just another outlander. Curiously enough, even as a Dunmer that zealously exterminated whatever Imperial presence he could find, I was neither revered nor abhorred. I was just another outlander. (?)

--

There really is something to be said for how perks and reputations in Fallout can shape a character and their piece of the world. While it may be completely unfounded that the whole world knows you killed a kid somewhere, it does shape an effective response for a roleplay choice.

To bring it back to the original posting, there's no reason why a barbarian can't be a fireballing orc beserker, but it would be nice if this perfectly valid choice _was_ frowned upon by someone in the game. You don't fit with the common perception of barbarians, and so common barbarians are at the very least wary of you, and quite possibly hostile as fuck. No moron indicators, no warnings that what you're doing might prevent you from joining a certain faction, just a simple "Fuck you, play the game again with a different kind of character."

There's nothing like "Oh wow, holy fucking shit! Here's a whole other side of this game I didn't get to experience last time. This has completely reinvigorated my desire to replay this game! <coughs> And buy the next one in the series!"

 

And that's why I place Morrowind behind games like Fallout, Arcanum, and Geneforge in terms of role-playing. However for me it's still the "next best thing".

 

Just a nitpick, Section: playing a Dunmer in Morrowind meant that you were a Dunmer from the mainland. Not all the Dunmer live on Vvardenfell, although (IIRC) their ancestry all runs to there. Hence, you would still be an "outlander."

 

I dunno about you, but magic in Morrowind to begin with was nearly unequivocably worthless, since a complete non-mage wielding a magic item could discharge flaming plasma death with far greater efficiency than any mage trying to cast a comparable spell! Every single worthwhile spell you could make was unusable at any level of skill, but you could jam the same thing on an item and anyone could use it.

 

Section8, the problems you mentioned are not problems with the skill system or magic system at all. It's basically a problem with the responsiveness of the NPCs, which we all know are dead in morrowind.

Norfleet, thats all well and good, but that is a balance concern . What do you think of the free use of magic schools rather than being a dedicated mage? That is the question relitive to this thread.

 

Well, I think balance is the heart of the whole issue in the first place.

TES games have always been sort of lacking in that department.

 

Hmmm...I personaly am willing to sacrife balance for more options. Requires a little self controll. Basically if I play an alchemist or a fighter, I'll raise the dificulty.

EDIT: Anyways, the balance issue with enchanted items can be solved by restricting the enchantement of items or beefing up standard magic.

 

Well the issue I have is it really limits things because it's like everyone is a powerful magician/master thief/ uberwarrior, and it really limits the differences between characters.

Also, you are way, way overpowered anyhow, so you don't need to to able to have yet more power.

 

Oh, the fact that your character was overpowered to begin with? They should have just raised the stat caps, removed them, or just made it so progress started to slow at very high levels (the last one is my favorite) so you can keep with one setup. They also needed to design creatures/chalenges witha broader range of levels in mind.

No need to throw out the mix n' match skill/magic system.