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The Codex Top 10, take 2

obediah

Erudite
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
5,051
1. Oblivion
2. FF VII

3. Descent To UnderMountain
4. Halo
5. Eye Of The Beholder 3

6. Pools of Radiance II
7. Dungeon Lords
8. Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel
9. Advanced Dungeons and Dragons: Heroes of the Lance
10. Zelda
 

John Yossarian

Magister
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
1,000
Location
Pianosa
Watch it boy, or I'll unsig you! Now that VD gave up his secret search function thingy, I can find dumb stuff* going all the way back to 2002 and sig them.

*Like: "For the sake of coherence, we dumbed down our review."

Edit: Missattributed a spelling error. I'll go cut myself now.
 

obediah

Erudite
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
5,051
John Yossarian said:
Watch it boy, or I'll unsig you! Now that VD gave up his secret search function thingy, I can find dumb stuff* going all the way back to 2002 and sig them.

*Like: "For the sake of coherency, we dumbed down our review."

I'm particularly proud of that rant, so I'll straighten up and think up an actual list - even though it means exposing to the world the classics I still haven't gone back to complete.
 

Zetor

Arcane
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
1,706
Location
Budapest, Hungary
Ladonna said:
It wouldn't work if we are to answer the OP honestly; What is the most fun, etc. I merely answered this based on a)What games I enjoyed the most and b) Which games I finished and perhaps even played through again. If I didn't finish a game, I didn't put it in my list.

As to your thoughts of 'Mobbing' certain games together, I loved POR but hated Curse.
Of course.. I just suggested it to get Gold Box games fair recognition, really (with individual games, none of them will make the cut, as everyone will likely label a different one as their favorite). I personally disliked the Savage Frontier series, but enjoyed Krynn.. I still ended up playing GSF/TSF through once.
Volourn said:
Huh? FO1, and FO2 have the same exact engine with the game play being exactly the same as well. L0L
I'll give you the engine (there were minor differences, but eh), but FO1 went for the 'less is more' approach while FO2 was a lot longer (with better party management, etc), but not as focused as FO1.
To be honest I included it in there because there seems to be a divide between folks who prefer FO1 and folks who prefer FO2. I don't think there are many people who loved EoB1 but hated EoB2, or think Dark Sun 2 was the best game evar with DS1 being an unbalanced mess.


-- Z.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
But the gameplay is still basically the same. The rules are the same, the combat is the same, the dialogue system is the same. One cna argue which game they like, and which game they think is better on their own merits; but the FOs are a lot closer to each other than say the two BGs (which ar essentially the same system as well). There's even bigger differences in the two NWN game play systems 9depsite baisclaly being the same) then the FOs.

I'd argue that most of the people who like FO1; but aren't as big of fans for FO2 are like that because FO2 is *too* similar to FO1 so it basiclaly plays as a longer less focused version of FO1.
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Well, if it was according to me, everyone who considers Fallout better than Ultima 7-2 or Wizardry 6, 7 or 8 should be stoned, but-

Because Fallout 2 is so... bad. The jokes. The 4th-wall breaking. China-men in San Fran. Way of the dragon. A god-damn porn studion. Too many hookers. Everything felt so incoherent and pasted together, like a jigsaw puzzle where pieces have been modified with scissors to make them fit. The only thing I liked in Fallout 2 was... hmm... Vault City. (Then again, I am not a huge Fallout fan in the first place, though I do think Fallout 1 is leaps and bounds better than 2).
 

Sodomy

Scholar
Joined
Jun 25, 2007
Messages
365
Favorites:
Fallout
Geneforge 2

Good ones:
Arcanum
Prelude to Darkness
Geneforge 4

Honorable mentions:
Planescape: Torment
Temple of Elemental Evil
Ultima 7
Gothic 2
Gothic 3
 

Keldorn

Scholar
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
867
Jasede said:
Well, if it was according to me, everyone who considers Fallout better than Ultima 7-2 or Wizardry 6, 7 or 8 should be stoned, but-

Because Fallout 2 is so... bad. The jokes. The 4th-wall breaking. China-men in San Fran. Way of the dragon. A god-damn porn studion. Too many hookers. Everything felt so incoherent and pasted together, like a jigsaw puzzle where pieces have been modified with scissors to make them fit. The only thing I liked in Fallout 2 was... hmm... Vault City. (Then again, I am not a huge Fallout fan in the first place, though I do think Fallout 1 is leaps and bounds better than 2).

Your criticisms are subjective. You are merely kicking up a knee-jerk reaction to the style/ambience/setting/social culture they wanted to be in the game. So what if it's zany, whacky, whimsical, deviant, larger, more populous, more dreg-infested, and culturally incongruous. I and many others actually see those elements as what makes Fallout 2 GREAT... hear that ? *****GREAT***** !

Look at the core objective elements instead. It has the same C&C, it has the same engine, it has the same interface. But it vastly expands the populations and makes them more behaviourally diverse, and relatedly, it DRASTICALLY improves the level of henchman character depth and interaction. Ian & Dogmeat under the Fallout 2 design, would no longer be 1-dimensional sprites/appendages. It's like a larger, more chaotic, more complex, more dynamic, more diverse sequel. And consequently, I and others (looking at the core objective elements) see it as better, yes better, than Fallout 1, and see it as a GREAT old school CRPG.
 

Keldorn

Scholar
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
867
Jasede said:
Keldorn said:
Your criticisms are subjective.

I stopped reading there because... well, think about it.


Predictable.


"I didn't laugh at your jokes, so you are are hereby classified as objectively & universally unfunny".
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Look, dude. Of course my opinion on the game is subjective. Hello? Sorry I don't like random cultures mixed together in no coherent manner, fourth wall breaking of the foulest kind and Monty Python references in every third dialogue. If you like that and if Fallout 2 is a good game for you that's okay, I don't care.

It's just that we look for different things in a game.
 
Joined
Apr 3, 2006
Messages
1,386
Jasede said:
random cultures mixed together in no coherent manner, fourth wall breaking of the foulest kind and Monty Python references in every third dialogue.
The fact that both the Fallout games are introduced with such stylistically coherent and pitch perfect black comedy makes those issues all the more grating. Pre-apocalypse Vault Boy, his 'instructional' movies, and the sense of upbeat '50s naivety are all brilliantly conceived and juxtapose wonderfully with the post-apocalyptic grimness of Ron Perlman's introductory speech.

And then they go and piss it all away with infantile pop-culture references. Note to game developers: art assets require an art director, writing assets require an editor, code requires a lead developer, and the game as a whole requires a project director capable of ensuring all these elements mesh together coherently. If I wanted half-assed versions of Monty Python routines I’d hang around in student bars.
 

Relayer71

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 23, 2006
Messages
538
Location
NYC
Favorites
- Planescape: Torment
- Wizardry 8

Good Ones
- Baldur's Gate 2
- Fallout
- Arcanum

Honorables
- Icewind Dale (would have fallen under Good Ones, but limited space)
- Kotor 2
- Morrowind + Expansions
- Gothic 2
- NWN 2

Dishonorables (sorry, couldn't help it)
- Oblivion
- Neverwinter Nights (except expansions, one of which was average, the other decent).
 

xemous

Arcane
Joined
Aug 6, 2004
Messages
1,107
Location
AU
System Shock 2, Thief 1/Gold, Thief 2, Fallout 1, Arcanum, Starcraft + Broodwars, Deus Ex, Fallout 2

Older games,
Vampire the Masquerade: Redemption, Quake, Blood, Duke3d, Doom, Kingpin

Others,
TOEE, Divine Divinity, Bloodlines, Max Payne 1 and 2 (2 should be at the top of the list somewhere)

My fav. games probably forgot a quite a few,

Trivia: I actually own all these games LOL! I Justified it because it's spanned a good 10 years, thats only 2 odd games a year which ain't too bad and they were cheaper back in the day. The only game that I haven't finished of the aforementioned titles is Bloodlines, I will complete it one day.

The only game I actually still play out of these is Starcraft
 

Keldorn

Scholar
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
867
muds_animal_friend said:
Jasede said:
random cultures mixed together in no coherent manner, fourth wall breaking of the foulest kind and Monty Python references in every third dialogue.
The fact that both the Fallout games are introduced with such stylistically coherent and pitch perfect black comedy makes those issues all the more grating. Pre-apocalypse Vault Boy, his 'instructional' movies, and the sense of upbeat '50s naivety are all brilliantly conceived and juxtapose wonderfully with the post-apocalyptic grimness of Ron Perlman's introductory speech.

And then they go and piss it all away with infantile pop-culture references. Note to game developers: art assets require an art director, writing assets require an editor, code requires a lead developer, and the game as a whole requires a project director capable of ensuring all these elements mesh together coherently. If I wanted half-assed versions of Monty Python routines I’d hang around in student bars.

That's merely artistic sneering based on your own subjective impression.

You've yet to actually prove that your personal *dislike* of the cultural and artistic elements in FO2 is an actual refutation of it as a genuinely great CRPG. If they substituted those gaudy, zany & whimsical cultural elements for essential and ubiquitous FO CRPG elements, you might have an objective point, but they didn't, so you don't.

I know some blindly wanted FO2 to NOT be expansive & different in how it represented the populational gatherings and subsequent behavioural & cultural manifestations, but instead, the creators effectively spiced it up and made the society more dynamic without changing the core FO CRPG elements/mechanics. They merely tweaked the culture & behaviour by sprinkling in some societal quirks & idiosyncracies, 2 things which are naturally present as human gatherings expand, multiply & diversify.

Try Fallout 2 after some really good weed and a cup of strong coffee, and you might see the subjective cultural kaleidoscope as a good thing, an interesting thing, rather than a bad thing to sneer at from a self-assuming, narrow-minded artistic pedestal.

And remember, FO2 (and all CRPG'S) are manifestations of game art via role-playing. They need not be strictly logical/rational simulations based on and shackled to 2007 science and contemporary reality. They can and will transcend those staunchly reality based limitations and stipulations, often by incorporating creative whim, fantasy, science-fiction and art, uniquely presented by the unique individual creators.
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
ok
normal_victoly.jpg
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
Jasede said:
Well, if it was according to me, everyone who considers Fallout better than Ultima 7-2 or Wizardry 6, 7 or 8 should be stoned, but-

Because Fallout 2 is so... bad. The jokes. The 4th-wall breaking. China-men in San Fran. Way of the dragon. A god-damn porn studion. Too many hookers. Everything felt so incoherent and pasted together, like a jigsaw puzzle where pieces have been modified with scissors to make them fit. The only thing I liked in Fallout 2 was... hmm... Vault City. (Then again, I am not a huge Fallout fan in the first place, though I do think Fallout 1 is leaps and bounds better than 2).

I see your point. Well yes there are many jokes that don't fit. But I liked F2 because it introduced the very same gameplay as in F1 only longer and wider (more cities, more quests). And you still had many solutions for the same quest as well as it was another game using SPECIAL plus you still can complete it without shooting and kill the last boss even without doing it yourself. Also the wide variety of C&C still was there. Especially after "modern" rpgs where you can say a shit to a person and then just come back and try to say it differently - F2 with a whole New Reno trying to kill you after you said some crap to a mob boss looks sooo refreshing.
And about Vault City... On my last walkthrough I wiped out every single person in it, because I hate how those self-loving bastards act... without any impact on the actual completion of the game.
In older RPGs as well as in recent ones there either wasn't a motivation to do it or a way to do it.
 

Keldorn

Scholar
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
867
I can understand how them sprinkling zany & incongruous cultural elements into FO2 can ruin someone's enjoyment of it. But what I can't understand is how that unique observer will then *subsequently* claim, as a statement of absolute, universal & objective FACT that FO2 was *ruined* by the inclusion of those elements. Sure, it negatively influenced certain individual's *enjoyment* of the game, that's the perceiver's artistic right. But is that personal reaction mandatory and inescapably true for *all* ?

Whoopi Goldberg & Dane Cook. They've never made me laugh, not even chuckle. I find them, from a humor standpoint, to be 100% unfunny 100% of the time (to me). But for me to then claim that they are factually, objectively, universally 100% unfunny (to all), would be quite a leap, wouldn't it ?
 

cardtrick

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
1,456
Location
Maine
Keldorn, what the hell are you talking about?

I actually like Fallout 2 better than the original game; I think this is a result of having played the sequel first and appreciating the larger and more varied world, along with the subtle engine tweaks that make minor but nevertheless important improvements to its playability. Part of this preference is probably nostalgia, too; to my 12 year old self the Monty Python references were pretty damn funny and the hookers and rampant sex were HOTT with two T's.

None of this changes the fact that you're coming off as a bit of a lunatic. Why are you attacking Jasede so . . . dumbly? You keeping talking about absolute objective claims for some reason. For one thing, I'm pretty sure that Jased never claimed that his dislike of the Fallout games, particularly Fallout 2, is based on some objective truth; he said that the aburdist humor and whatnot in the sequel ruined the game for him, but that doesn't mean that he's claiming this to be universal in any way. (Although, if he was claiming this I think he would probably have sort of a point . . . even though I, personally, prefer Fallout 2, I imagine that any objective rubric of RPG quality would likely rate it as inferior to its predecessor.)

Also, Whoopi Goldberg sucks.
 

Risine

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Messages
114
Best:
1. Ultima 7 Serpent Isle
2. Ultima underworld 2

Good:
3. Planescape Torment
4. BG
5. Fallout

Enjoyable:
6: Lands of Lore I
7. BG2
8. Arcanum
9. M&M3 Isles of Terra
10. Ultima Underworld I
 

Chefe

Erudite
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
4,731
1. Final Fantasy VII
2. Leisure Suit Larry 6

3. Final Fantasy IX
4. Final Fantasy Tactics
5. Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker

Honorable Mentions
6. Final Fantasy II
7. Pokemon Blue
8. Fable
9. Oblivion
10. Pokemon Yellow
 

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