From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

Also, remember the show is only a show.

I have been here 9+ years, and the number of griefers and whiners here is aggravating.

Sometimes it is better to join the circus and just FUCK with people than to act serious, like my real self.

I create Drama for fun.

Right now, I am completely sober and serious.

This is a game I really like.

I have never played a game twice, most don't even get one playthrough.

This game made me cry twice.

I think out of frustration, but still...

Once, I remember whispering, "This game is harder than real life!"

Which I think says it all.

 

In some games you can save mid-combat and always load when something goes wrong... So what, it's the PC, you can edit your game if you so desire in most cases. That has been argued to death around here anyway. It's not a problem, people get to do what they want to do. I don't see why you couldn't have ordinary saving on top of this game's checkpoint system. Onoes, some people are going to save right before the boss and scum him until he dies. Others can fiddle around going back and forth and thinking about when to die, or whatever it is this checkpoint system is supposed to add to the game. And again some will use straight cheats. Skip the boring parts in whatever way you can.

And really, what fucking consequences, it's a single player game with nothing at stake. There are no consequences.

 

Editing a game is out-and-out cheating.

But allowing people to reload tempts non-cheaters to do so.

In case you didn't pay attention, Demnogonis, there IS ordinary saving on top of this game's checkpoint system. The checkpoints are there to reload in case you die, and to refresh your estus flasks for healing.

NO CONSEQUENCES? WTF are you drinking. The point of an RPG is a branching plotline, where your choices matter. Meaning, reloading to explore alternate options defeats the point of MAKING choices, for those that care.

 

Also, it's not very strategic to face a boss and reload everytime you miss a hit, or the boss hits you. This game forces you to rethink your strategy and execute WITH PRECISION.

Having a reload option is a bit like having a "lean" option in Thief. Suddenly, sound becomes less important... Footsteps.

In other words, having to replay a section of the game, rather than just reloading every few seconds, or everytime you make a mistake lowers your possible game exploits by one..

And the temptation to cheat/exploit the game is not there. Which save-games have been for the PC community now for years. Saving and exploring a branching option because you didn't like your original consequence is a bit like peeping into the future, and defeats the point of having options with consequences in the first place. Didn't like a consequence? Reload.

Editing a save game file is an option that exists outside the game world, and if you do so, you're already a gimp who is trying to powergame your way through something that is supposed to be A CHALLENGE.

Exploring options means accepting consequences. You can change the way you play in NG+ if you want.

And the save system is completely fair. Any other save system would be an exploit.

Thanks,

A14

PS: In sad news, apparently From Software is not known for good PC ports. Pray!

 

There is only one person you are depriving if you choose not to play this game--YOURSELF.

You are missing the best game of the last 5+ years all because you don't like the save system. You prefer "broken saves" that allow you to exploit the game by peering into the future, and redoing mistakes. Choices and consequences...

I am not going to argue with stupid. You either buy it, or don't, but remember, the game is there, and it WILL save your state if you save and quit. The only punishment is for death. Or stupidity.

And most deaths in this game are completely fair, and caused by stupidity.

End subject.

PS: Going to mention again, the number of possible approaches to a problem are EXPONENTIAL! The game is really fun because of the high number of possibilities, and therefore mistakes, you can make. Most of the problems are environmental, there are a number of ways you can approach a problem, and if one isn't working, you are going to have to go back and try again, varying tactics. Checkpoints or no, this approach is FAR more fun than whacking buttons in combat, you actually have to use the environment and THINK. A cerebral game for cerebral gamers...

A14.

 

I want to believe that this isn't the case and an online petition actually accomplished something.

Although the circumstances make a planned viral campaign possible.

 

it's a change at least
yes please, more viral marketing campaigns for 'inaccessible' titles to convince the easily gamed dipshits that they want to get in on that trend before the game becomes outdated

 

ArcturusXI, why not post under your old account?

 

The consequences are what happens in the game as a result of your actions, of course. Did the warrior get too close to the poisonous monster while fighting the other ones? Too bad, now he's poisoned. Either spend the cleric's precious spell points curing it or have the rest of the party continue without him, possibly being wiped out because now they lack a frontline meatshield. Let's try again.

Unless you don't consider "losing" to be a possible consequence of playing a game, but that would be inane

 

Just got back my old account.

Also, consider "cursing." You get cursed, it lasts even after you die. Hence, save as you go! Nobody complained about this in Diablo 2, why complain about it now?

 

I am also gonna add, using an outside program to exploit the game is not part of the designers intentions as part of the gameplay experience.

When you play a game, you hum the designer's tune. That's just my opinion!

 

why bitch about the checkpoint system in dark souls when it's obviously meant to be the setback you get for dying plus the souls penalty

it's like a roguelike except with checkpoints along with the save when quit, do you complain about nethack or adom or whichever roguelike you don't like people criticising not letting you save and reload later from the same instant

clearly those are not using the power of the pc to its fullest and leftover design failure from console limitations too rite
there is nothing at stake in roguelikes, no consequences for actions in those whatsoever so don't give me that bullshit

shit even titan quest doesn't let you do that and it's not even a shadow of the souls series difficulty

You're right though, I'm sure people are going to do what they want to do and use a trainer or third party program for no death penalty and automatic backup of character files just like savescumming can't stop the revolution

 

Dunno, haven't been interested in roguelikes for the longest time. Again is this game a roguelike, where half the fun is failing in some unexpected fashion and then making a new character that might be eaten by a cat? Seems to be a story-driven 3rd-person action game to me, and I have heard talk that it's pretty long as well. That's not the sort of game where I want do-or-die, three lives, no continues. The genre seems like one where the best fit is F5/F6 style saving system. But what do I know. If it's supposed to be a resources management challenge as well then I sort of can see what's it there for. Still seems fucking annoying if you ask me. Otherwise, the game seems pretty interesting and as you can get if for 20€ these days I just might have to find my PS3 controller one of these days.

And maybe I didn't get something? There is indeed nothing at stake in roguelikes, maybe you start over or not, maybe you cheat. It does not matter in the least, you'll beat the game if you want to or do something else. Or let's put it this way. There are consequences, but they don't matter to anybody else than the player, so it does not matter if he chooses to cheat at them.

 

ArcturusXIV hmm.. what exactly did you mean by 'the puzzles'?

 

It's not story-driven whatsoever. You explore a world at will. You move the game forward by exploring more of the world and, in order to do so, you have to clear out areas and beat bosses (sometimes).

It's not a roguelike. Nor is it a "three lives, no continues" game. It's a normal game with a user-controlled checkpoint system (you pick what checkpoint to activate currently) and no save/load feature. It has a Save-Quit feature that allows you to continue playing from wherever you left off but that's it.

If what you want out of a game like this is to hack-and-slash your way through as quickly as possible and the concept of losing 5-10 minutes of progress after you die is offensive to you, then you shouldn't play it.

I know you're not truly this dense. When people talk about consequences in a game they're talking about consequences IN A GAME. Nobody is ever talking about a game that somehow causes consequences in the real world.

 

F5/F6 saving style is pretty much godmode, I don't understand why people like it.

 

usualy kids, and insicure people play like this. Since they are scared that every move isn't "perfect" and that they might miss out on something : D.
I used to play like that when i was very young also, then i realised how stupid it was and booring.

 

It's possible to have games balanced around quicksave. Open world games with a lot of deadly enemies and no level-scaling, for instance, like Gothic or Stalker, would be really frustrating without the ability to save anywhere, on the first playthrough at least. In Stalker on the highest difficulty level and with difficulty enhancing mods, the only thing quicksave does is allow you to act like a retard and die instantly, without any real repercussions - and this honestly does not help that much.

 

I believe Kaizo mario was balanced around savestates. Imagine if that was a hacked pirate kart sold on the cheap back before emulators, children would have gone berserk.

 

Of course I don't mean that. Well I haven't been clear enough I suppose. I'll try to explain just once more. So a save system might force you to continue on with what you get, or restart if you have the time and patience. Or you can cheat, and since you play against nobody, it matters to you alone. Nothing can force you to "live with the consequences" if you don't like them 'cept your desire to play fair, and what that means is personal. So while it's likely there's a guy here who each and every time one party member dies by accident just picks up his stuff and takes a 10 min detour and pays 1000gp for the spell to resurrect him, there's also probably someone who just quickloads every time and never uses resurrection spells. If that's an exploit, it doesn't even matter, that's why I'm saying there's nothing at stake, you can't win anything and can't beat anybody. You just play in whatever way pleases you since nothing's stopping you from playing Iron Man with standard save system.

I just don't see the advantage in not having the option to save normally.

 

Well if you tend to play like that I can understand why you'd like checkpoints. Additionally you could as well say that any saving system other than iron man is god mode.

 

Perhaps it would be better to think of it in versus fighter terms, except this is player versus dungeon with between-checkpoint round time. Yes I know I'm stretching the analogy here. How little satisfaction would there be if you could save-reload in a versus fighter? Now compare that satisfaction to being able to clear a dungeon portion successfully. I keep hearing the euphoria from beating the game on your own terms draws a lot of first time players back to the game.

You're probably focusing all your thoughts on convenience and how this game is going to suck because you can't save and not the possibility of you being taken with the concept once you've tried it. Sure, it's up to you to ruin the game for yourself if that's what you want, but the souls series has been designed around tough love, the process of learning what to do against each enemy, the need for constant wariness and challenges that you die to due to your own misjudgment, not for example 'hahaha unskippable cutscene that gives enemies two rounds of initiative' like that bit in Knights of the Chalice where you just throw up your hands and go whelp I know that's coming now.

If it matters that much for you and the satisfaction I mentioned doesn't count then this game isn't for you, simple as that. That doesn't invalidate the design methodlogy, and you still haven't said anything about the comparisons to Diablo 2's system. Again: This is not about the convenience of reloading. The idea of losing in a game just kills it for you, because you think losing without being able to reload immediately permanently stains your experience.

 

A better example would be some Metal Slug ports I have played that have infinite continues and thus don't have gameplay, but they are entirely different types of a game, short and sweet. Tournament fighters don't have SP satisfaction in my opinion fucker AI reacting perfectly to every button press until you find it's pattern

But see, in any emulator you can find there are save states. Haven't ruined a single game for me, even while at times I just save right before a difficult boss because my patience has run out and the outcome of the pre-boss sequence is always the same.

And I don't think the game is going to suck, I'm just trying to make an argument here. That sort of learning what to do, trial-by-death stuff only works in games with very short levels in my mind. Otherwise it get's irritating because you make a mistake, then you just think about the length of the sequence ahead, not it's difficulty or how to beat it. I can take that, I have had so many friggin' consoles in my life. Yet I always wish I could just save before the boss.

And the comparison to Diablo 2. I don't know how you play that game but I always throw a TP just as I'm dying or before a tough fight. So the time to get to your corpse is something like ten seconds, and there are no respawning enemies. Note that at this point I don't know how long it usually takes to get to where you were in DS or indeed if it has a portal spell or something, I have only watched parts of some playthrough and it anyway seemed like the person playing isn't good at action games so he was just constantly running some ~3 minutes from a bonfire to a boss encounter... I just want to try at the boss again, hacking at some zombies I killed already to get there just kills the excitement for me.

 

^the levels aren't exactly short, most of the time (there are some really short ones, though) but there are enough shortcuts to unlock that most of the time (if you know your way around the level, which isn't that hard to do since they're aren't that complicated) you can run from a bonfire to the boss in a minute or so and ignore all the enemies (they can't follow you to the boss room (except for one particular case, but you really want to kill those enemies anyway since they drop some neat things)). and once you learn their patterns and weaknesses, fighting them becomes really quickly and it's an easy way to partially make up for the potential loss of your bloodstain with all your souls.

and there's a "partial" TP item: it teleports you to your last used bonfire (but you can't teleport back to the place where you used the item) and it can be really useful once you unlock the ability to "warp" between some bonfires roughly half-way through the game.

 

You have to keep in mind that there aren't really any "hard" areas in terms of needing quick reaction time or masterfully timed combos. DS isn't about that, it's about peeking into a room and noticing the two enemies around the corner rather than charging in to fight the obvious enemy and getting ganked. It's about avoiding traps that you haven't seen before before you trigger them, not after reloading when you die to them. The exploration of the environment is the danger, not the enemies themselves. Save/Load spam doesn't destroy games that rely on your button pressing skill, it does destroy DS as soon as you have perfect knowledge of the room before you go into it.