From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[praetor]

praetor what mod?

the one posted a couple pages back:

Looking into the series, but not sure which one to play. The original PTDE has bad framerate even with DSFix, plus there are bugs with things which are tied to 30fps. Remastered works flawless with 60fps, there are parallax occlusion mapping and surface scattering, but it has some visual changes that I don't like.

While looking for a lighting fix for Remastered, I found this (I think there was an article about this guy recently):



He also said some things about the visual downgrade of Dark Souls 2. Not sure where he's got that information though, but he's a developer himself.

 

[Wunderbar]

praetor what mod?

the one posted a couple pages back:

Looking into the series, but not sure which one to play. The original PTDE has bad framerate even with DSFix, plus there are bugs with things which are tied to 30fps. Remastered works flawless with 60fps, there are parallax occlusion mapping and surface scattering, but it has some visual changes that I don't like.

While looking for a lighting fix for Remastered, I found this (I think there was an article about this guy recently):



He also said some things about the visual downgrade of Dark Souls 2. Not sure where he's got that information though, but he's a developer himself.

huh, i saw a thumbnail and immediately dismissed it as some ENB lighting mod. Still not sold on it cuz it looks like another unnecessary overhaul that reshuffles stuff around for no reason, but this DSTools thing sounds like amazing. Edit levels in Unity and then reimport them back into the game? That's possible Open Dark Souls level shit.

 

[Multidirectional]

I prefer cleaner look of vanilla SOTFS over his lighting "enhancements". That shit would probably just make my eyes tired faster.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

You could try DS2

Guess i could, after this. And DS3 after that.

Don't bother with 3.
After 2 you're better off trying Demon Souls.
In some regards it's the best in "series"

People told me the same thing about 2 when 3 wasn't out yet lmao

Those people were retarded.

What's the deal with DS2? I heard it had troubles during development and my friend keep saying me to stay the fuck out and don't touch this shit, but sometimes I see different opinions about it.

Also, is it better to play original or SOTFS?

The game did have a troubled development.
The first director had very neat ideas for gameplay + levels and wanted to expand the setting. But he was inexperienced.
So management not wanting to waste more money on what was pretty much a side project (Bloodborne was in development), fired the poor guy and called in a more competent director to finish the game by the PS4's first year - so the game went from a next-gen project to a transitional title (to be released for both the PS3 and PS4).

And while some aspects ended up somewhat weak, DS2 has a lot of good shit that makes up for it:
-best NG+ of any From game
-some of the best levels From has made
-best DLC's
-best PvP
-best Convenents
-best magic
-the most solid mechanics in the 4 Soul games
-the lore isn't fanservice like in 3 and expands upon past themes
-possibily the most creative aesthicts
-a very good batch of bosses (even in the base game)

As for playing vanilla or SotFS, that's an entire new can of worms because of the changes.
IMO what they pulled with it was a bitch move (make people that already bought the whole game to pay for it again instead of just give it as a free update).
But overall I do recommend SotFS if you want the more complete experience.

I have a controller, but I only use it for fighting games.

But this is a fighting game.

Technically speaking it's a hack 'n' slash.

Controls, downgrade of graphics, clunkyness, etc.

DS2 controls are fine. Better than 1 as you can reliably play with kb+m in 2. And 1 is more clunky than 2.

I'd say it's a better action RPG than 1. There's a nicer variety of viable builds and stat system is better thought out (in before whining about Adaptability). It's really only the first half of DS1 that I would call better than DS2 because of the way exploration works, but you can only play it so many times before that gets old too.

DS2 doesn't have builds. XP is inflated to the point where by mid game you are near the soft cap for every stat. Armor is effectively cosmetic. Magic sucks by end game (all DLC areas esp). You have 4 ring slots and rings were overall nerfed heavily so there's very little noticeable difference in choice. Basically all there is in DS2 is picking a weapon.

Even if that were true, which it isn't, DS2 would still have much much less design problems than 3:

• The most linear of all the games, less branching options than DeS and even BB. Rehashed areas in an already short game (and a third of the game is a swamp). First DLC was a 1.5 hour long disappointment with a rehashed arena. Second DLC had no end despite being the very last dark souls title we'll get for the foreseeable future. Bonfires out the ass. Overall the less replayable game From has made in the last decade;

• Filled to the brim with shitty references, nostalgiafagging and pandering out the ass;

• Armor variety is less than DS2 base game, despite copypasting a 3rd of the armors from previous games. The heavy armors are the heaviest they have ever been in the series, while offering basically no additional defense over medium/light sets (in short they suck). The armor system is in general a horrible imbalanced mess;

• Too many useless fucking stats. Awful scaling balance. Poise working as intended. Equip load is now done by VIT, which for some reason gives less per level than dark souls 2. Some Ultra Great Swords, Great Axes, and Hammers weigh more than entire armor sets. Some weapons have retarded stat requirements where they don't even scale with said stats.

• Enemy design is overall catered to Bloodborne R1 spam. Enemies have infinite "stamina". And even simple mobs are more troublesome than most Bosses;

• No backstep i-frame, but rolls cost next to nothing with extremely fast recovery and many iframes;

• A majority of the small weapons sped up to bloodborne speed, but most of the Great weapons have been made slower and consume more stamina, while barely doing more damage. Straight Swords and Curved Sword are as fast as daggers. Left hand weapons no longer have full movesets. Weapons in general are 90% quality based. These quality weapons are also usually the best weapons in their class, no redeeming qualities for special weapons resulting in less weapon variety than even BB. This also means Boss weapons are shit. Weapon Arts are mostly just special R2's or Powerstance moves copypasted. Very little moveset variation;

• Magic needs 2-3 ring slots just to dish out melee level damage. Magic itself does reduced damage for PvP. Removes a shit ton of cool spells from the previous game. FP is the most awful casting management system introduced yet (worse than DeS mana, which had better regen options and more efficient), it's horribly ineffiecent with damage, ends up causing everyone to use 1 or 2 FP efficient spell like Great Heavy Soul Arrow. Miracles suck, the best and most viable ones locked behind the final boss. Hexes are gone and dark magic is shit. Overall magic is garbage;

• Covenants are stickers which can be changed on the go - also awful covenants (ex.: blue sentinels and darkmoons are the exact same). They also have shitty rewards. No blue eye orb. No arena. Dragon form the worst it's ever been in both aesthetic and practical sense - also no Dragon covenant. MLGS is the worst its ever been. The game punishes invaders and encourages ganking;

• Lowest Boss count after DeS. Half the bosses are the same roll R1 spam fest, the other half are gimmicks...

 

[Stormcrowfleet]

For controls I only played DS1R, which I heard had a control fix for kb+m. So my point is moot regarding DS1>DS2. That being said, DS1R has much better control than DS2 since that's where I came from and was highly confused. But by control, I don't speak just of control mapping, I speak also of how the character actually responds to it.

 

[Lyric Suite]

You guys are not exactly selling either of the sequels to me lul

 

[Latelistener]

I prefer cleaner look of vanilla SOTFS over his lighting "enhancements". That shit would probably just make my eyes tired faster..

It's not just lighting enhancements. Although I still doubt he will be able to finish it.

 

[Wunderbar]

Lyric Suite tl;dr - DaS2 is ambitious but flawed, DaS3 is a bland retread.

 

[Stormcrowfleet]

Lyric Suite tl;dr - DaS2 is ambitious but flawed, DaS3 is a bland retread.

You can see it also from the most popular content mod around: DS1 and DS2 have story/area/monster content mod (like Daughter of Ash), whereas DS3 has a huge mod that's popular that adds weapons and builds.

 

[Alphard]

i finished all from games available on pc except ds2 . tried twice and both times got bored midway through.
there must be a reason

 

[NJClaw]

[...]

And while some aspects ended up somewhat weak, DS2 has a lot of good shit that makes up for it:
[...]
-a very good batch of bosses (even in the base game)

Even if that were true, which it isn't, DS2 would still have much much less design problems than 3:
[...]

• Lowest Boss count after DeS. Half the bosses are the same roll R1 spam fest, the other half are gimmicks...

Can you make a couple of examples of "good bosses" in DS2 base game?

I can agree with your other points, but DS3 bosses, to me, are far superior than what DS2 has to offer (if we exclude dlcs).

 

[Silverfish]

Can you make a couple of examples of "good bosses" in DS2 base game?

Lost Sinner
Smelter Demon
Ruin Sentinels
Velstadt
Mytha
Watcher / Defender (should have been the final boss tbh)
Female Convict Scorpion (I cannot remember her actual name, sorry)
The Rotten
Pursuer

Ragging on DS2 is good fun, but it does have some cool bosses.

 

[Alphard]

what about ranking bosses in the game?
for me in ds 1 ( from best to worst)

Gwynn
Artorias
O&S
Bell Gargoyles
Sif
Manus
Taurus
Asylum demon
Sanctuary guardian
Kalameet
Priscilla
Iron golem
4 kings
Queelag
Nito
Gwyndolin
Capra
Seath
Stray demon
gaping dragon
pinwheel
firesage demon
BOC
ceaseless discharge
camera centipede

how do the best ( from this list or your own) compare to ds2 best ones and worst to ds2 worst ones?

 

[NJClaw]

Can you make a couple of examples of "good bosses" in DS2 base game?

Lost Sinner
Smelter Demon
Ruin Sentinels
Velstadt
Mytha
Watcher / Defender (should have been the final boss tbh)
Female Convict Scorpion (I cannot remember her actual name, sorry)
The Rotten
Pursuer

Ragging on DS2 is good fun, but it does have some cool bosses.

I agree, I love DS2, but its bosses are "the same roll R1 spam fest" as much as in DS3.

 

[praetor]

praetor what mod?

the one posted a couple pages back:

Looking into the series, but not sure which one to play. The original PTDE has bad framerate even with DSFix, plus there are bugs with things which are tied to 30fps. Remastered works flawless with 60fps, there are parallax occlusion mapping and surface scattering, but it has some visual changes that I don't like.

While looking for a lighting fix for Remastered, I found this (I think there was an article about this guy recently):



He also said some things about the visual downgrade of Dark Souls 2. Not sure where he's got that information though, but he's a developer himself.

huh, i saw a thumbnail and immediately dismissed it as some ENB lighting mod. Still not sold on it cuz it looks like another unnecessary overhaul that reshuffles stuff around for no reason, but this DSTools thing sounds like amazing. Edit levels in Unity and then reimport them back into the game? That's possible Open Dark Souls level shit.

it's really not "for no reason" when he's mostly doing it (so far) to be closer to what was presented in the previews and what's available in the artbooks/interviews. you may disagree with the reason, but it's definitely not "for no reason". in a way, it's trying to be the "Lost Alpha" of DS2. out of all the overhauls, this looks like the only one that is actually being done purposefully by someone who actually knows his shit and understands visual and game design (Latelistener's screenshot is a perfect illustration of the meticulousness of this guy)

though, judging by the amount of nitpicky details he's going through (take a look at his last twitch stream if you care... he spent hours tweaking great axe movesets to try and make them more logical and unique and to try and get rid of the "fixed animation windup" at the beginning of each attack. he explains it rather well in his stream if you're curious, but it's a lot of hours to get through, and i forgot to make a note about it ) and the pace he's working at, he'll never be even close to finishing this

I prefer cleaner look of vanilla SOTFS over his lighting "enhancements". That shit would probably just make my eyes tired faster.

i strongly disagree. his lighting enhancements do a better job of highlighting the architecture and details and hiding the awful, 90ies level tiny texture tiling that's a huge (visual) problem. he also has shadows that actually work and are much more dynamic instead of the 95% prebaked crap that's in the game, making everything look "more 3D". if you look past the extra HDR and stuff, and the actual lighting&shadow enhancements, it's a huge improvement

 

[Manjuice Nutella]

The thing I remember the most from DS2 was that elevator:

Bland environments and level design is what made me lose my interest, I think I abandoned it either after looking glass night or before Old Iron King. I don't remember any interesting level from DS2, aside from maybe Drangleic Castle, and I don't feel like playing through the whole game to access potentially good DLC areas.

On the contrary, while DS3 gets the most shit, level design may be linear but I think aesthetic-wise it's some of From's best work. High Wall of Lothric was a nice throwback to Undead Burg, all the nooks and crannies included, and I enjoyed it way more than I did all that incohesive nonsense from 2. In general every DS3 level looked appealing, except for maybe that poisonous swamp (why do they have to cram it in every game?)

 

[Wunderbar]

- Dark Souls suffers from somewhat incoherent world design because each location was designed separately, and devs were running out of time and weren't able to connect them to each other in a good way. But the individual level design is pretty good for the most part - Forest of fallen giants is a good starting location that teaches you to be careful with frequent ambushes; No man's wharf is great because there is just one bonfire and since it's very early into the game you are required to manage your resources well; the whole Majula pit - Grave of saints - The Gutter - Black gulch run is a neat twist on typical poison swamp from other fromsoft games, etc. Each location frequently features environmental hazards, making traversal a challenge in itself (while in DaS3 there are almost no traps).

- Yeah but that windmill elevator into lava tho

 

[Wunderbar]

High Wall of Lothric was a nice throwback to Undead Burg

it's a rehash of Boletaria palace (complete with Tower knight / Dragonslayer's armour at the end).

On the contrary, while DS3 gets the most shit, level design may be linear but I think aesthetic-wise it's some of From's best work. High Wall of Lothric was a nice throwback to Undead Burg, all the nooks and crannies included, and I enjoyed it way more than I did all that incohesive nonsense from 2. In general every DS3 level looked appealing, except for maybe that poisonous swamp (why do they have to cram it in every game?)

"pretty looking" is the only thing DaS3 is going for.

 

[Multidirectional]

I hate the dull monochrome look of DS III. I actually prefer visuals of DS II SOTFS for the most part, even if III has technically more advanced graphics. Also getting really distracting texture pop-in in III that I never found a fix for.

 

[Manjuice Nutella]

 

[Wunderbar]

Aldia also jumpscares the crap out of you each time he spawns in a bonfire

 

[Gerrard]

Soulscucks, not even once.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

I agree, I love DS2, but its bosses are "the same roll R1 spam fest" as much as in DS3.

It's not the same.
DS3 is completely tuned to a "roll roll roll R1 R1 R1" playstyle. It's not that you can't complete the game with other builds, it's that the game punishes you ridiculously for playing otherwise and in the end it's not viable or fun.

The thing I remember the most from DS2 was that elevator:

The Iron Keep is the only inconsistency to the world design and it was the fault of the devs having to restructure the game partway through development (the salamander tunnel below Forest of Fallen Giants was planned to wind its way through the mountain and let you out in Iron Keep, and there was an area below Earthen Peak that was meant to lead down into the Undead Crypt).

Bland environments and level design is what made me lose my interest, I think I abandoned it either after looking glass night or before Old Iron King. I don't remember any interesting level from DS2, aside from maybe Drangleic Castle, and I don't feel like playing through the whole game to access potentially good DLC areas.

DS2 does have a lot of mediocre levels but so does DS1. The saving grace of a lot of 1's levels is the fact the world is so interconnected, because if you take them individually, not alot of them are that well designed and this becomes specially noticeable by the 2nd half of the game where the levels lose that interconnectivity.
That's a weakness of DS2 having a more horizontal layout to the world, the game has to rely more on the quality of the individual levels. But has the upside that you're given much more options of where to go at any moment:

And even in the vanilla game DS2 has good amount of great levels:

The Forest of Fallen Giants
The best 1st level in all Soulsborne games, due to some good pacing, exploaration, an abundance of challenges - even for more expereinced players (for example defeating the pursuer) - and optinal content.
Not to mention if the salamender pit did connect to the Iron Keep, this levels would give access to 2 different areas.

No Man's Wharf:

The Lost Bastille

Earthen Peak

The Gutter

Huntman's Corpse + Shaded Woods

Brigth Cove Tseldora:

I could go on.
But I'll just add that even some levels that don't have much going on to their level design have something going on to their artstyle and atmosphere like the Shrine of Amana.

 

[Lyric Suite]

One question: is it possible to start NG+ naked?

I always found this system weird. I assume it comes from fighting games and shit like that but i'm not sure it works with an RPG of this scope. You start the game at higher difficulty but you retain everything which means no building, no exploration, no hunting for items, nothing. Plus how many times you can finish the game? Seven? That's overkill, why not make three difficulty settings with maybe new gear and new stuff?

I'm thinking of sending this character to NG+ without any gear, just take the slabs with me for more building variety and then park it there for a future play.

BTW, doesn't seem i'm getting too many matches with the Dark Moon shit. I'm thinking of killing the tranny boss and just shoot for the 120 meta. I'm just starting the DLC now and i'm already SL91 this game drops WAY too many souls damn it. Last time i was SL81 when i got to the last boss but back then i lost tons of shit by dying constantly, but not this time.

 

[Wunderbar]

Lyric Suite you can just drop items, but it will take a while considering the amount of stuff you pick up during playthrough.