Official Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Incline The Death of Freemium? Microtransactions Under Global Scrutiny

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by Lahey, Nov 24, 2017.

  1. mondblut Arcane

    mondblut
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    15,089
    Location:
    Ingrija
    [​IMG]
     
    • Funny Funny x 4
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    ^ Top  
  2. Santander02 Arcane

    Santander02
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2009
    Messages:
    2,868
    Here's a a video that leaves the morality of it all aside for the most part and explains why lootboxes make a game shittier even if you never even think of shelling out the shekels for them



    Basically, even you are a nihilist/edgelord and don't care about the ethics of lootbox gambling and even if so far only modern AAA games use the model (in the west at least), the practice WILL spread until every game short of low budget pretentious indie crap has gameplay that that actively tries to make players feel frustration and tedium if they refuse to buy the damned things. And I don't want to play only low budget pretentious indie crap for the rest of my gaming life. Do you?

    I might actually just swear off games entirely if this shitty business models become the industry standard, and I'm getting there, I haven't been playing any recent high profile game for a good year or so due to crap like this.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
    • Brofist Brofist x 7
    • Acknowledge this user's Agenda Acknowledge this user's Agenda x 1
    ^ Top  
  3. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Average Manatee
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    9,702
    A thought I had was that this outrage is comparable to the outrage over Diablo 3's real money item trading.

    The interesting thing is that Diablo 3's system was tried and immediately despised and reviled in 2012, but the lootbox crap has existed all the way until basically 2018 without any real pushback. This is despite the fact that D3's system is way better for players than BF2's system. BF2's system relies on a bloated list of thousands of items of crap that are there to pretend you got something for your cash when you never actually get what you want. In D3's system, you'd be able to trade what you don't want for what you do want. Unlocking anything but the most desired characters would probably cost 1/10th to 1/100th the average price to "roll" them in a lootbox drop, and even the best characters (Darth Vader/Han/whatever) would still sell at around the same price or better (even if 90% of players want to play Han, the 10% left over still sit around to drive the price down).

    The only explanation I can come up with is that we're effectively seeing a video game example of people preferring a socialist economy (everyone gets just a drip feed of non-lootbox crap and can't trade anything, paying 100% to the developer) rather than a free market one (players getting most of the items themselves and the dev merely taxing a few % on transactions). Even when the former is far inferior for players the latter is more inherently despised because of the idea that paying other players, or good players making money off bad players, is somehow "wrong".
     
    • Creative Creative x 3
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  
  4. Santander02 Arcane

    Santander02
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2009
    Messages:
    2,868
    "Uncucked" Britain is a pile of horeshit.



    It's all up to the Belgians now, as far as Europe goes, harrumph...
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  5. Cael Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

    Cael
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2017
    Messages:
    7,977
    No. They never were LEGALLY gambling. I have been through that in the other thread (where ignoramuses decided that I was posting crap simply because they didn't agree with what I said). That is the problem, which I have also iterated in the other thread. Technology has moved on and the gambling laws are behind the times. They need to be modified to take into account the new media of the Internet and online virtual gambling.

    If all the politicos are doing is to look at whether lootboxes constitutes gambling as far as the law is concerned right now as is, then there is no hope. If they are looking at the whole idea of lootboxes with the open mind of changing/updating laws if such changes are required, then we have a chance to have lootboxes made illegal.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Fabulously Optimistic Fabulously Optimistic x 1
    • retadred retadred x 1
    ^ Top  
  6. Lahey Laheyist Patron

    Lahey
    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2017
    Messages:
    1,467
    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    This youtuber can't even go 20 seconds without bungling the facts. To reiterate, Australia/France/America haven't opened any official investigations as of yet; A single Australian regulator shared his opinion informally via email, There has been correspondence on the matter between a French senator and his country's online gambling regulators, and the statements from Chris Lee -- who is not a member of the U.S. house of representatives, he's a Hawaiian state representative -- are thus far purely rhetorical. The UK Gambling Commission position paper from march was quite clear, if anything their recent update created more ambiguity.
     
    ^ Top  
  7. Freddie Savant

    Freddie
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2016
    Messages:
    717
    Location:
    Mansion
    While not related to gambling, AFAIK, I don't play Destiny 2, this influence of decline, I happened to see link to following post regarding XP in Destiny 2 today. It's 3 days old but I didn't see this covered in Codex yet. And it's solid, Bungie outright admitted it.

    The thing is, Bungie is selling XP booster which may actually be counter productive for the players, I didn't dig more about it, but I think it's quite obvious what Bungies interest there might be.

     
    • hopw roewur ne hopw roewur ne x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • WTF am I reading WTF am I reading x 1
    ^ Top  
  8. mondblut Arcane

    mondblut
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    15,089
    Location:
    Ingrija
    If the likes of Grimoire and Dominions qualify as "low budget pretentious indie crap", a resounding YES, SIR.

    Long overdue.

    Oh wow. A tremendous sacrifice. Don't forget to sign some online petition promising all those bethsofts and biowares that they "lost a customer" or whatever.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 5
    • Edgy Edgy x 3
    • Funny Funny x 2
    ^ Top  
  9. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Average Manatee
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    9,702
    That's interesting. If you are selling something that gives +10% XP for real money, but buying it actually only gives +8% XP, this would seem to constitute actual business fraud that the FBI would love to hear about.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    ^ Top  
  10. Freddie Savant

    Freddie
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2016
    Messages:
    717
    Location:
    Mansion
    The question is if boost item triggers scaling, because player earns more XP. Like it's in the post:
    I can't comment legal position of Bungie in the US regarding this. As gamer however, I think this sort of practices are cancer. I don't think it's a small box, like some games do this. I think for any that are successful rise more demands from the investors to bring more this sort of schemes into games. At the same time focus of game development will shift more and more towards building these schemes and hooks for those, rather than actual game, be that adventure or something else, where player skill is what is supposed to matter.

    So industry follows the money of course, instead of actual game devs we start seeing more people who are good at creating gambling mechanics and psychological hooks to pay to win and as evident from this and the Battlefront 2 case, it isn't just that freemium titles that are affected. In the end we are getting more and more products that are tailored to be good experiences to the certain point, and then terrible experience onwards, just to build players incentive to buy that extra item, or take a chance with loot crate. Games designed overall to be bad.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  11. Cael Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

    Cael
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2017
    Messages:
    7,977
    This is a result of MMOs and the like, and is not about to stop. Merchants have been selling crap products for inflated prices since the year dot. Historically, it is when they start being fraudulent about it that something needs to be done about it. That is why we have laws against those kinds of practices.

    Let's be clear here: There is really no issue with pay2win in MMO style games, SO LONG as they are advertised as such so that the consumer is informed of what they are getting into. It is when they advertise as free to play but never mentions you MUST pay2win, that is when there is fraud. There is a reason the phrase "lying by omission" exists.

    The OTHER issue, which EA fall afoul of is this: Purchases that give you a CHANCE of getting something, which must be repurchased after EACH ATTEMPT. That is basically taking a pull on a slot machine (although it may not be as defined by the law, the mechanism is identical): put money in, pull lever (or tap button these days), hope for the jackpot. This should be regulated just like any other gambling establishment.

    The THIRD issue is one that many Flash MMOs have: "Encouragement" to spend, specifically targeted at the weak-willed and the young. As I have said before, that game I linked to is OPEN about the fact they insert company funded trolls into their servers with the specific purpose to goad real players into buying things. That is fraud in all but name, but it exists and needs to be clamped down on and policed. Also all those "just one more step, you can make it, just pay for that last step, you got the previous 4 for free!" transactions. Even more insidious, as used by the game I linked to, is the fact that that last "step" is a dice roll. Sure, you can complete the run if you roll a 6, but if you didn't guess what? You have to pay for ANOTHER dice roll, and since you have paid for one, you are more likely to pay for the second. And they have spots where you are sent BACKWARDS, necessitating even MORE dice rolls. As I said, very insidious and need to be terminated.

    EA really only fell afoul of the second issue. But it shone a light on the whole industry and I hope to hell people start waking up to 1 and 3 because they are far more eregious. 1 is outright fraud by any other name. 3 is gambling writ large.

    I have said before, anyone who has NOT played the game I linked to does NOT know the true extent of how bad things are and can get. They think that Battlefront II is the worst it can be. WRONG! "You ain't seen sheee-it, man!"
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Bad Spelling Bad Spelling x 1
    ^ Top  
  12. Santander02 Arcane

    Santander02
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2009
    Messages:
    2,868
    I'll admit there's some gems among budget indie games, but those just come allong once or twice every few years, if at all.

    "Sacrifice" implies that I actually wanted to play those games, but they never caught my interest to begin with. As for Bioware and Beth, I've stopped caring about them since way more than one year, but freemium's influence extends beyond rpgs.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  13. Freddie Savant

    Freddie
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2016
    Messages:
    717
    Location:
    Mansion
    Oh, I know this. Then there are things I think are practically impossible to prove, like if Warframe is tailored for people on autism spectre. For legal sides of things, I think it's obvious and covered in this and Battlefront topic already. But I disagree that this sort of thing is only influencing retards or Warframe or freemium (as evident).

    Time, resources... or money to hire those teams of gambling specialist and crooked psychologist must come from somewhere, then those teams needs leads too, and what they come up with must be implemented to game, so it might be reason to additional coding, perhaps something needs to be rewritten, etc. It's that additional cost AND cost of additional entropy in process of shift of focus, what publishers consider as 'good' product on gaming market.

    I don't know, I wouldn't mind buying some AAA title if something good some day materialised. I wouldn't mind finding fun MP game either, but for now for all I can say is that Codexers may want to take a good look if EA's Anthem is going to be disaster perhaps for different reasons than ME: Andromeda. That said, based on what was posted on Andromeda topic, funny how gimped the weapons in ME: Andromeda MP were? Sure not ruining the game for building incentive to buy cards which may or may not give you a weapon upgrade.
     
    • it is a mystery it is a mystery x 1
    ^ Top  
  14. TalesfromtheCrypt Arcane

    TalesfromtheCrypt
    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2005
    Messages:
    4,207
    I’ve got 30+ years of gaming history to plow through, a constant trickle of new indie, Kickstarter whatever games and my limited amount of gaming time is probably not going to increase until I’m hanging out at the retirement home. My backlog is so big that there is no realistic chance of me actually playing through all of these games in my fucking lifetime.

    Just recently I decided to get into serious flight sims. This alone has the potential to occupy the next years of my life, gaming wise.

    Why the hell would anyone care about modern AAA games and their shenanigans?
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 5
    • Salute Salute x 1
    • Old Old x 1
    ^ Top  
  15. Santander02 Arcane

    Santander02
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2009
    Messages:
    2,868
    If you don't care about modern games nor about the fact that publishers want to incentivate adictions in children, then fine, there's nothing more about to talk about with you nihilistic edgelords, but I personally do not like the way the industry is going and I very much care about the ethical implications of these practices like I said on the very first page of this thread. I'll continue this conversation with people that do care though.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
    • Brofist Brofist x 8
    • butthurt butthurt x 1
    ^ Top  
  16. Cael Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

    Cael
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2017
    Messages:
    7,977
    No one who is seriously debating this topic says they are only influencing retards. Only those idiot trolls are. Pay attention.

    I don't give a damn what the companies are paying. Drug lords pay their pushers, too. Shall we make taking drugs legal?
     
    • retadred retadred x 2
    • Yes Yes x 1
    • WTF am I reading WTF am I reading x 1
    ^ Top  
  17. mondblut Arcane

    mondblut
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    15,089
    Location:
    Ingrija
    Absolutely. How is that even a point of contention?
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 3
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  18. Dexter Arcane

    Dexter
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Messages:
    10,883
    https://archive.fo/9YSpC
     
    • Funny Funny x 4
    • decline decline x 1
    ^ Top  
  19. Cael Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

    Cael
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2017
    Messages:
    7,977
    The phrase "...a coalition of high level industry experts and influencers..." sets off all sorts of alarm bells as it is typical SJW-speak. Add to that, they are already setting up "think tanks" and committees and are already trying to represent the WHOLE industry (without ever asking the industry permission to do so). All these are very SJW-esque powergrab tactics.

    It would end up like the Media Watch over here, which rubberstamps anything the SJWs say no matter how vile but condemns others for using words like "man".
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  20. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2017
    Messages:
    14,529
    Location:
    Bulgaria
    Makes you curious what their first retardism will be. Maybe every 5% from lootboxes will go toward a good cause like helping homeless trannies,or a free crapuchino once week in starbucks.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
    ^ Top  
  21. Lahey Laheyist Patron

    Lahey
    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2017
    Messages:
    1,467
    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    One would think they'd make sure their first press release didn't contain so many errors.

    Privately funded think-tank whose membership is not publicly available appoints itself as representative of the entire industry, but won't take policy positions despite planning on being "everywhere video games, politics, and law intersect"? Yeah because we all saw how well that went with DiGRA. But wait, there's more!

    And here I thought the ESRB and PEGI were already self-regulatory bodies within the industry. Silly me! "Damaging the public consciousness" raises yet more alarm bells as this is classic PR speak which -- coupled with the lack of transparency -- indicates what one can expect from this "regulator". Establishing itself as a whistleblower magnet is the cherry.

    At least their steering committee is public:

    Kenneth Tran
    Chair. Freemium dev.

    Jack Wegrich
    Vice-chair who was CM for Tran's game and other freemium titles. Also:

    https://blackshellmedia.com/2017/02...community-manager-cut-throat-robotics-zozbot/
    :lol:


    https://angel.co/jack-wegrich
    https://www.quora.com/profile/Jack-Wegrich?page_id=4
    The companies he currently works for http://cutthroatconsulting.com/Home_Page.html and http://www.rogueruck.us. Considering he misspelt the latter and other things (melenial) and is a CM, I'm willing to bet he wrote that press statement.

    Riley Worcester
    Can't find much without linkedin/zuccbook etc. but he's an accountant currently with http://www.sfostax.com and formerly of http://rsmus.com.

    Michael Luxion
    e-sports
    journo turned failed shovelware dev. His company's sole attempt at producing a game, Sportball Manager, failed to hit its kickstarter goal back in 2015. His twitter seems to have been created for and abandoned after this time.

    Bryan Haskell
    http://www.brandissimo.com "play is how kids learn and grow, but it is also how they connect to your brand" is fairly self-explanatory, as is ESL. Call of Duty Elite was a failed paid subscription model that managed to milk idiot fans of that shitty franchise for a whole 2 years before shutting down.

    Daniel Doan
    https://blackshellmedia.com/about/
    "Indie" as in shovelware: http://store.steampowered.com/search/?publisher=Black Shell Media. His twitter is about what one would expect from a guy who works in marketing.

    Jonathan Perez
    Nice of Tran to bring his VP in addition to the CM! Another shovelware dev who makes """educational""" mobile games. http://multiversegames.net/about. His twitter is protected. Looks like an autist.

    Tion Bruton
    http://nintendo.wikia.com/wiki/CIRCLE_Entertainment Another shovelware dev. Easily the most entertaining twitter, featuring the odd mix of cats, moonspeak weebshit, and negroiddities. She also has a deviantart with a few really shitty drawings such as this:
    Show Spoiler
    [​IMG]
    tl;dr almost entirely composed of marketers and freemium/shovelware devs.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 5
    • Informative Informative x 5
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Makes you think... Makes you think... x 1
    ^ Top  
  22. Alienman Arcane Patron

    Alienman
    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2014
    Messages:
    8,928
    Location:
    Mars
    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
    What a joke.
     
    • Yes Yes x 2
    ^ Top  
  23. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Average Manatee
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    9,702
    How many codex brofists and reddit upboats do I need to be considered an influencer? I'd like to influence the fuck out of microtransactions.

    Yeah, it's an obvious deflection tactic. The few government officials who took interest in things for a few days will be able to say something happened and will forget about everything by next week.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  
  24. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2017
    Messages:
    14,529
    Location:
    Bulgaria
    Seven gold ones on the same post!
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  25. Murk Arcane

    Murk
    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2008
    Messages:
    11,844
    I think the only way that group of shitheads could be less trustworthy is if they were all EA staff. The accounting MBA guy should jump ship now.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    • Agree Agree x 2
    ^ Top  

(buying stuff via the above buttons helps us pay the hosting bills, thanks!)