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The Denuvo DRM Thread

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by Infinitron, Jan 8, 2016.

  1. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
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    Really good analysis

     
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  2. Perkel Arcane

    Perkel
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    Can't wait to read on internet Denovo defense force every-time he does video.
     
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  3. Gerrard Arcane

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  4. Hirato Purse-Owner Patron

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    I did leave a comment, but I'll reiterate here.
    The framerate benchmarks unfortunately don't really show anything of much value, and the minimum framerates are kind of worthless because variables like the shader cache(*) isn't controlled for.
    This is why most techtubers will use 1% and 0.1% minimum framerates rather than the absolute minimum, so that they don't have to control for that stuff.
    I get the impression he ran the benchmarks with denuvo, then non-denuvo; as he responded to me, he did the denuvo ones, rebooted, then non-denuvo.


    The cancer known as Denuvo has no impact on framerates, provided that ample CPU power is available.
    It performs no work on the GPU, so if we're looking at GPU bound benchmarks, we will see no difference.

    Denuvo, at least for the moment, is a strictly CPU based affair, so benchmark wise, he'd be far better off locking the framerate at moderate settings and comparing the CPU usage of the before and after.
    Its known impacts include
    1. Massively bloating executable file sizes
      This is bad for cache coherency; meaning it causes thrashing of L1/L2/L3 caches, which can severely impact performance.
      Windows also needs to map the entire executable into RAM, which add a few seconds of overhead and an unnecessary 200MB or so to RAM usage.
    2. Blocking synchronous checks
      This can cause stalls, in particular causes a ~20s or so stall during first run before the game will even initialise.
      As you can see later on his screen, his CPU didn't even clock up from 800MHz until denuvo validated and the game finally commenced loading.
    3. General overhead from validation checks
      From what I understand, denuvo games need to do regular validation checks, these are often done in loading screens, or in the input handler.
      The more well behaved games do about 5 a second or so maximum.

    Ergo, his benchmarks were completely focused on the wrong thing.
    The loading times are still useful statistics, as that's almost pure CPU, and shows improvements between 10-30%.
    But the frametimes are useless without the corresponding CPU Usage to put it into perspective, as Denuvo has no impact on GPU load.
    It's all well and good to know that framerate went up 10%, but what's the CPU usage?
    Does it achieve that 10% at the same CPU Usage? Meaning it's just a straight out 10% improvement.
    Does it perhaps achieve the 10% while using 20% fewer CPU cycles? Suddenly that 10% becomes a far more impressive 37%.



    (*) Assuming the only difference between the executables is the presence of Denuvo, then he could've given the non-denuvo run an unfair advantage.
    As they're still the same game, they'll most likely use identical shaders; for each shader during compile time, the driver follows this simplified procedure.
    1. Calculate checksum of shader
    2. Check cache for match, go to step 5 if there's a hit
    3. Compile Shader
    4. Store in cache
    5. Return compiled shader
    This cache is persistent, and is only invalidated when the driver is upgraded to a different version.
    This means that the denuvo runs possibly paid the full the shader compilation costs, whereas the non-denuvo run might've gotten away without having to compile a single shader.
    And by having to pay the full compilation, the denuvo run had terrible minimum framerates - I believe the 59 vs 60 runs to be more indicative of what it would be in reality if this was controlled for.

    This is also why games tend to stutter a bit when you play them for the first time, or right after a driver upgrade.
    And why proper benchmarks consist of multiple runs (minus outliers) - and techtubers utilise .1% and 1% minimums, rather than absolute minimums.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
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  5. Gerrard Arcane

    Gerrard
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    "Denuvo has no impact on performance except when it does."
    I already said this in the Denuvo thread years ago: how the fuck can it have no impact on performance when it's running checks constantly (some games even per frame)? What is doing those checks if not the CPU?
     
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  6. unfairlight ヽ(✿゚▽゚)ノ Patron

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    I don't think you fully read the post. Don't get flustered so fast.
     
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  7. passerby Learned

    passerby
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    Either incorrectly installed cooler, or deliberate quiet PC setup.
    I have delided 4670k 4,5GHz OC with huge 140mm cooler, configured to not spin up above minimum 650 rpm, until it hits 75C and max out rpm at 85C.
    In summer with 26C in the room, it hits 82C with OCCT stress test and 72C in real applications and games. If it was comparable 120mm cooler configured the same way it would hit around 80C in game.
    Occassionally hitting 80+ is perfectly safe.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
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  8. Hirato Purse-Owner Patron

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    I even bolded the other half of that exact sentence because I knew people were going to do that...
     
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  9. Jarpie Arcane Patron

    Jarpie
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    As Denuvo uses CPU, doesn't that then mean that if you get, let's say 60 fps on 90% of the CPU usage, and Denuvo uses 20% of the CPU, it affects the framerate? Also, even if (or when) denuvo uses the CPU, and not GPU, it still uses up resources from the computer, compared to without denuvo, so it should always be better without it.
     
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  10. Cael Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

    Cael
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    No. He is saying that if you are using 50% of the CPU to run your 60fps, and Denovu requires 50%, you're sweet.

    Stupid troll logic, of course, because running a CPU harder has obvious consequences.
     
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  11. unfairlight ヽ(✿゚▽゚)ノ Patron

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    Eh, I don't think that's too much the case either. When it comes to ultra high frame rates, your CPU will start bottlenecking earlier than your GPU. If for example games that people try to run at the highest frames such as CS:GO had Denuvo, Denuvo would in almost all situations cause a very bad performance drop. On the other hand with a reasonable FPS cap and a powerful CPU you should have no loss in performance.
    It's fair to note that this is all awful no matter how small the performance loss is, as it's still a loss and it still objectively leads to a worse experience at no benefit to the paying consumer.
     
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  12. Hirato Purse-Owner Patron

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    It means that without denuvo, you'll get 60 FPS at 70% CPU Usage instead (or would that be 72%?).

    That obviously goes without saying.

    There's other obvious advantages as well
    1. People with weaker CPUs can enjoy more games, where denuvo's overhead would have previously made it unplayable,
    2. Your CPU will run cooler - might be a fun idea to bludgeon game companies with this in a "don't you care about the environment!?" sense and see if they'll react. :)



    EDIT: The key point I wanted to make in the last post is that denuvo adds 0 overhead to the rendering pipeline.
    Tthe overhead it adds is everywhere else from physics, event handling, game logic, network logic, asset loading, etc.
     
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  13. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    All I know is that Total War Warhammer has the most godawful load times ever (2-3 minutes for returning from battles on min settings and an SSD), and it has Denuvo. No other Total War game that I've played has anywhere near these problems.

    Actually now that I think about it, Prey had pretty bad load times too and it apparently has Denuvo. Haven't played any othe Denuvo games, but its 0/2.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
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  14. CyberModuled Educated

    CyberModuled
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    Least Prey is probably going to drop Denuvo this year the same way Dishonored 2 did last year since even Bethesda ironically have enough brain cells to realize how useless it is. SEGA on the other hand... who the fuck knows what they're doing (they dropped it for Yakuza 0, Two Point Hospital, Kiwami 1 before launch, and Sonic Mania yet a few of their other games still have/will have it on games like Warhammer 2, Three Kingdoms and Sonic Team Racing... but Kiwami 2 doesn't have it yet).
     
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  15. GrainWetski Arcane

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    They probably leave it up to the devs. CA is a bunch of cunts.
     
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  16. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Goodnight sweet prince: https://www.pcgamer.com/denuvo-cracks-2019/

     
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  17. Grauken Divide and Confuse Patron

    Grauken
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    DRM-decisions are often made at a very high management level by people who force it down as company-policy more on a philosophical base (and their own lack of knowledge of the realities of the market they operate in on a nitty-gritty level) than any real numbers, so this doesn't mean Denuvo is dead
     
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  18. Astral Rag Arcane

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    I still can't get over how horrible the new F1 cars look.

    :prosper:
     
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  19. InD_ImaginE Cipher

    InD_ImaginE
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    I mean in case of Rage 2 and DMC5 some incompetent hacks somehow let the free of Denuvo .exe lying around so their case don't really say much about Denuvo protection capability.

    As mentioned in the article Anno 1800 has yet to be cracked. And really the scene is all about dick measuring contest so it is questionable that a game has yet to be cracked in a month, most likely means that Denuvo do actually protect stuffs from being cracked. After all Denuvo and the scene is playing whack a mole with each new Denuvo versions, with Denuvo patching shit up and the scene trying to find new exploit/find new trigger added in new version of Denuvo.
     
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  20. cvv Arcane Patron

    cvv
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    Link?
     
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  21. InD_ImaginE Cipher

    InD_ImaginE
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    To what? The Denuvo free .exe? They are in the scene release for both. I don't really know people who uploaded only the exe.

    If you means source, I also monitored these shit from 2nd and 3rd hand account from reddit and a local forum. Probably some people in cs rin ru finding these shits.
     
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  22. Perkel Arcane

    Perkel
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    Sounds like bunch of excuses. As matter of fact those differences exist.
    Secondly you falsely say that just because it is CPU check it will not impact framerate as long as there is enough juice to run game.

    Whole nature of Denuvo is to recheck constantly which means it introduces delay into pipeline which needs to be resolved before next frame can be drawn. Ergo it completely explains why non denuvo exe doesn't have those stalls and shitty minimum framerates.

    This is similar thing to draw call issues with cpu-gpu on PC. On face value draw calls don't have anything to do with framerate or GPU but because CPU can't handle properly them they stall whole pipeline even if you have enough Mhz and multiple cores free.

    It would be one thing to claim this when you didn't have ample evidence but you have now multiple videos confirming it while there are no videos disproving this.
     
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  23. ESh Arcane

    ESh
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    Fine by me, Denuvo is doing wonders for DRM awareness :)
     
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  24. Hirato Purse-Owner Patron

    Hirato
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    I can tell reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.
    I clearly laid out my case, of what he did wrong (tracking GPU utilisation when he should've tracked CPU utilisation), what Denuvo is known to do (bloat exes, kill performance CPU side), and what he should've done (tracked CPU usage).


    Do you understand what the shader cache does?
    Have you ever tried one of those fancy new emulators that generate thousands of shaders?
    Ever notice how they take about 10 minutes to build the bloody things during the first run after updating your driver?
    And launch almost instantly in subsequent runs?

    That's the shader cache at work.
    He ran the denuvo version before the non-denuvo one - doesn't matter if he rebooted - as such the non-denuvo one gets to reuse the shaders from the denuvo version (because they're the same), granting it far higher absolute minimums.
    That's because retrieving it from the cache is super cheap (e.g. 0.01s each) versus stalling the pipeline and compiling it (e.g. 1s each).
    This is why I made the point about 0.1% and 1% minimum framerates being the standard among tech-youtubers.



    We all here agree that Denuvo is fucking aids.
    I just take umbridge with the fact that he did a piss poor job demonstrating the primary impact, because frankly, his video made denuvo look "not that bad."
    Probably doesn't help that he was encoding/saving the video on the computer he was doing the benchmarks on too, as that adds significant CPU and GPU overhead.
     
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  25. zwanzig_zwoelf Graverobber Foundation Developer

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    FTFY
     
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