The Greater General Codex Theory of 'What is an RPG?'

[Sigourn]

Since I didnt play GTA 5, I have to ask you to do a review on the game. Based on 12 points, which point does GTA5 got? And on total, how many point?

The extent of the "RPGness" of Grand Theft Auto V is that there is combat (not an RPG element by itself) and that your skills level up. But they level up very slowly and they don't make a dramatic difference either. The game is 99% killing people and running over people.

 

[Sweeper]

That's a fine list an' all, but Deus Ex is not an RPG.
Suck my dick Gregz.

 

[Bloodeyes]

I think the Gregz is on the right track by using a threshold based approach to RPG definition. However I think that there's a methodological error in that he has chosen his factors of RPG definition purely through subjective judgement. Basically, he's made an educated guess. I think a better approach would be conduct an exploratory factor analysis before developing a model, but this would be a huge undertaking and would need to be a group effort. I've never done an EFA, I've only read about them so I don't even know if this method is right but it seems like a good approach to getting our factors. If an actual statistician could weigh in it would be much appreciated (could we crowdfund hiring one to do this for us? That would be way better than figuring it out for ourselves).

Here's how I'm thinking it would work: We generate a list of thousands of game design elements. These must be chosen at random, not as characteristic of RPGs but simply as characteristic of video games. Not subjective, comprehensive concepts. Specific, measurable individual elements. These are our items. We could possibly generate this data ourselves but we might get more items if we took a broader appoach to data collection (like asking Redditors to submit items en masse). A real statistician would be able to give us a better estimate of how many items we would need, which is why I think crowdfunding one would be a necessary first step before we waste time with inept bumbling. We then run a huge random sample of games through this list of items and see which items load together into factors. We'll need to use statistical software like SPSS or Jamovi to do this, but unfortunately the data entry would be herculean. We'd absolutely need a budget to hire third worlders to do it for us. Again, crowdfunding seems like the only way we'd get this budget.

Anyway then we'll have a list of factors which define a video game genre. Cool. We'll probably need to do this a bunch of times to reduce our number of factors until we've got as close as we can to distinct elements. To see which factors define the RPG genre (if it turns out it exists) we'd need to look at combining the factors into all possible combinations (with software) and see what games from our random sample group together when we do this. If a certain grouping of factors produces a list of RPGs then bingo! We discard all other factors unrelated to RPGs and we have our n-factor model of RPG definition as well as lists of items we can use to develop evidence based assessment tools for each factor. We could develop short and long form RPG assessment scales based on these items.

The possibilities are greater than just defining an RPG. With factor analysis we could possibly define what a good RPG is and create assessment tools far more accurate than reviews ever could be.

 

[Darth Canoli]

I think the Gregz is on the right track by using a threshold based approach to RPG definition. However I think that there's a methodological error in that he has chosen his factors of RPG definition purely through subjective judgement. Basically, he's made an educated guess. I think a better approach would be conduct an exploratory factor analysis before developing a model, but this would be a huge undertaking and would need to be a group effort. I've never done an EFA, I've only read about them so I don't even know if this method is right but it seems like a good approach to getting our factors. If an actual statistician could weigh in it would be much appreciated (could we crowdfund hiring one to do this for us? That would be way better than figuring it out for ourselves).

Here's how I'm thinking it would work: We generate a list of thousands of game design elements. These must be chosen at random, not as characteristic of RPGs but simply as characteristic of video games. Not subjective, comprehensive concepts. Specific, measurable individual elements. These are our items. We could possibly generate this data ourselves but we might get more items if we took a broader appoach to data collection (like asking Redditors to submit items en masse). A real statistician would be able to give us a better estimate of how many items we would need, which is why I think crowdfunding one would be a necessary first step before we waste time with inept bumbling. We then run a huge random sample of games through this list of items and see which items load together into factors. We'll need to use statistical software like SPSS or Jamovi to do this, but unfortunately the data entry would be herculean. We'd absolutely need a budget to hire third worlders to do it for us. Again, crowdfunding seems like the only way we'd get this budget.

Anyway then we'll have a list of factors which define a video game genre. Cool. We'll probably need to do this a bunch of times to reduce our number of factors until we've got as close as we can to distinct elements. To see which factors define the RPG genre (if it turns out it exists) we'd need to look at combining the factors into all possible combinations (with software) and see what games from our random sample group together when we do this. If a certain grouping of factors produces a list of RPGs then bingo! We discard all other factors unrelated to RPGs and we have our n-factor model of RPG definition as well as lists of items we can use to develop evidence based assessment tools for each factor. We could develop short and long form RPG assessment scales based on these items.

The possibilities are greater than just defining an RPG. With factor analysis we could possibly define what a good RPG is and create assessment tools far more accurate than reviews ever could be.

There is another method, instead of trying to give an exact definition of an RPG; which is doomed to fail, even if you find a good one; just ask me if a game is a RPG or not.
There's a bunch of people here who could to tell you, it's simple enough, if they like early might and magic, the wizardry series, Dark Sun, Fallout 1 and KotC, they're probably up to the task.

 

[Gregz]

Steam tags essentially do this now, although not very well.

https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/store/tags

 

[laclongquan]

There is one single weakness to your method: Feasibility.
You can keep dreaming about your ultimate list and survey. Keep dreaming. Two more decades and maybe it would be finished. Two more until people would generate enough response sample size so analysts can do an acceptable result.
This method is, barely, simple enough and we still cant generate enough answers for a list. 12 features and you just need to answer y/n to each feature for a game. Total yes feature and you got a number. Under 6 and it's not RPG. That's it. 15 minute at most for each game.
Keep It Simple, Stupid.

I think the Gregz is on the right track by using a threshold based approach to RPG definition. However I think that there's a methodological error in that he has chosen his factors of RPG definition purely through subjective judgement. Basically, he's made an educated guess. I think a better approach would be conduct an exploratory factor analysis before developing a model, but this would be a huge undertaking and would need to be a group effort. I've never done an EFA, I've only read about them so I don't even know if this method is right but it seems like a good approach to getting our factors. If an actual statistician could weigh in it would be much appreciated (could we crowdfund hiring one to do this for us? That would be way better than figuring it out for ourselves).

Here's how I'm thinking it would work: We generate a list of thousands of game design elements. These must be chosen at random, not as characteristic of RPGs but simply as characteristic of video games. Not subjective, comprehensive concepts. Specific, measurable individual elements. These are our items. We could possibly generate this data ourselves but we might get more items if we took a broader appoach to data collection (like asking Redditors to submit items en masse). A real statistician would be able to give us a better estimate of how many items we would need, which is why I think crowdfunding one would be a necessary first step before we waste time with inept bumbling. We then run a huge random sample of games through this list of items and see which items load together into factors. We'll need to use statistical software like SPSS or Jamovi to do this, but unfortunately the data entry would be herculean. We'd absolutely need a budget to hire third worlders to do it for us. Again, crowdfunding seems like the only way we'd get this budget.

Anyway then we'll have a list of factors which define a video game genre. Cool. We'll probably need to do this a bunch of times to reduce our number of factors until we've got as close as we can to distinct elements. To see which factors define the RPG genre (if it turns out it exists) we'd need to look at combining the factors into all possible combinations (with software) and see what games from our random sample group together when we do this. If a certain grouping of factors produces a list of RPGs then bingo! We discard all other factors unrelated to RPGs and we have our n-factor model of RPG definition as well as lists of items we can use to develop evidence based assessment tools for each factor. We could develop short and long form RPG assessment scales based on these items.

The possibilities are greater than just defining an RPG. With factor analysis we could possibly define what a good RPG is and create assessment tools far more accurate than reviews ever could be.

 

[Ol' Willy]

just ask me if a game is a RPG or not.

Jagged Alliance 2

?

 

[Bloodeyes]

Steam tags essentially do this now, although not very well.

https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/store/tags

It's similar! But yeah, Steam doesn't do it well. They still start with user judgements to define things like genre and their list of items is way, way too short. They start with things like "action genre". Exploratory factor analysis would have things like "PC can sprint", "game features hats", "first person perspective", "Player controlled driving", "future setting", "can choose PC hairstyle" etc and would have thousands of these items. That's why data entry would be such a bitch and would need a team of people doing it. Not just to input the initial list but to apply it to thousands of games. I'm basing the method loosely on the development of the five factor model of personality. That took... a while. Still, there are a couple of things that support the feasibility of my research design.

1. The initial work on the five factor model of personality was done manually, prior to widespread access to computing and before the existence of the Internet.

2. Even if we couldn't afford to get a statistician, I ran a poll on Codex education levels a while ago and the majority had Masters degrees or better. Someone's bound to be genuinely statistically literate (not me, I'm barely literate).

3. We wouldn't need to crowdfund that much between ourselves to hire a team of Venezuelans to do the data entry. Venezuelans work for absolute peanuts farming Runescape gold.

There are some issues with this that I've yet to solve however:

- Venezuelans speak Spanish. The only thing I can think of is to generate our list of items in Spanish but that seems impractical. Translation software seems like a more feasible option but it's not very reliable. Could the reliability be improved by keeping our items short? This would also limit our sample of games to those available in Spanish, but there's enough videogames with Spanish localizations to still get a same size in the thousands.

- Indians are another possibility and more likely to speak English, but I wouldn't hire an Indian to perform any task without direct supervision so I think that rules them out.

- Using third would peasants to do the data entry would require them understanding video game concepts. They don't.

- One possible solution to this would be to "crowd source" the data entry like Steam is doing. Reddit has the userbase to do it. If even a single respondent entered the data for a single game we'd get our dataset, even with extremely low response rates.

- The issue with this is I don't know that people unrelated to the project would sit through that without compensation.

- Unless someone has a solution to this we may actually have to do the data entry ourselves. I still think it's feasible, it would just take a couple of years (assuming a handful of interested people inputted a couple games a week).

 

[Bloodeyes]

There is one single weakness to your method: Feasibility.
You can keep dreaming about your ultimate list and survey. Keep dreaming. Two more decades and maybe it would be finished. Two more until people would generate enough response sample size so analysts can do an acceptable result.
This method is, barely, simple enough and we still cant generate enough answers for a list. 12 features and you just need to answer y/n to each feature for a game. Total yes feature and you got a number. Under 6 and it's not RPG. That's it. 15 minute at most for each game.
Keep It Simple, Stupid.

Convenience isn't validity though. It's a lot more convenient to just not answer this question. I don't think it would take decades to generate our initial list of game features. Weeks or months maybe. Running our sample of games through the list would be the time consuming thing. I think that could take years, unless someone brighter than me has a solution to that. I think someone may, and I think EFA is our best hope for a valid definition, not an easy one.

 

[laclongquan]

There is one single weakness to your method: Feasibility.
You can keep dreaming about your ultimate list and survey. Keep dreaming. Two more decades and maybe it would be finished. Two more until people would generate enough response sample size so analysts can do an acceptable result.
This method is, barely, simple enough and we still cant generate enough answers for a list. 12 features and you just need to answer y/n to each feature for a game. Total yes feature and you got a number. Under 6 and it's not RPG. That's it. 15 minute at most for each game.
Keep It Simple, Stupid.

Convenience isn't validity though. It's a lot more convenient to just not answer this question. I don't think it would take decades to generate our initial list of game features. Weeks or months maybe. Running our sample of games through the list would be the time consuming thing. I think that could take years, unless someone brighter than me has a solution to that. I think someone may, and I think EFA is our best hope for a valid definition, not an easy one.

Feasibility. As in whether it's possible to do it.
With twelve question/aspect/feature as this list present, its answer will lead to acceptable results.
To do that, Codexers alone would take a year, mostly because we cant just answer it everyday. One per day maybe. 365 game for a very patient (rare) gamer.
I think Codexers would finish this list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_role-playing_games in one year
No JRPG though. I am guessing two or three years for this https://www.reddit.com/r/JRPG/wiki/complete_list_of_jrpgs

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

This doesn't change the conclusion but I watched it anyway.

 

[Serus]

just ask me if a game is a RPG or not.

Jagged Alliance 2

?

Pathfinder 1 and 2?