Icewind Dale The Icewind Dale Series Thread

[IncendiaryDevice]

If anyone here can do it & do it well, the winner is the person to finish the Orc Fortress with the most gold.

Not a good measurement of skill in a game where it's possible to grind for loot.

I don't remember any perpetual sources of gold before the Orc Fortress...

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

This is late game talk though, by the time you get to the orc fortress you'll be lvl ~5 without LA, with LA probably less.

Yeah, I've no idea why people are planning late game, you only get a few levels before the Orc Fortress.

 

[Average Manatee]

Basically Bane just rolls over everything with low will save and everything with high will save is probably a caster neutered by Power Word: Silence. What exactly are the perks of the other gods? Don't really see anything great that these three don't have, looking at the spell lists.

My favorite would be Mask, Mirror Image is broken in the game, even though you get just 1 it still helps against things like Horrid Wiltings. Improved Invis and Invisibility Sphere are also very useful spells and late game Executioner's Eyes / BBD obviously. Also Talos is interesting because of Tremor - there are very few enemies in the game that are immune to knockdown, plenty of stun immunities, but not knockdown.

This is late game talk though, by the time you get to the orc fortress you'll be lvl ~5 without LA, with LA probably less.

I was actually considering Mask. Mainly for Sleep, because it completely trivializes the early game. I don't really see Mirror Image being that useful, either my whole party is in melee wrecking shit or my whole party is sitting behind summons spamming hold person and similar spells. Executioner's Eyes is already covered by Oghma. Emotion: Despair is Bane. Invisibility stuff is nice though. Overall, don't really see them that useful. As soon as my whole party gets Hold Person it's Hold Person spam for days + 24 strength melee rape train.

Tremor is Cleric 8/Talos 7. So Talos gets 1 cast of it slightly earlier than the whole party gets 8+ casts of it. Really couldn't care all that much. 1 spell that allows a save isn't that great, and enemies with low reflex are already eminently nukable by Flame Strike.

This is late game talk though, by the time you get to the orc fortress you'll be lvl ~5 without LA, with LA probably less.

Yeah, I've no idea why people are planning late game, you only get a few levels before the Orc Fortress.

Indeed. Hence why I'm planning on a half-orc melee extravaganza. By the time you have dozens of 5th and 6th level spells if you can't figure out a way to roflstomp encounters you need to give up on D&D.

 

[the_shadow]

I'm playing that 6 cleric party now, but on Insane difficulty.

I could have rated you incline, because at last someone's actually doing it instead of just theorising, but I went with rolls eyes because you only seemed to want to communicate the fact that you're doing something on insane. You don't mention what party you went with, what their stats are, how far you've got or anything that would make for interesting reading beyond noting that you like to post in forums about how hardcore you are. Which is no problem & wont diminish your victory if you get past the Orc Fortress, but it tends one to suspect that, due to ego, if you fail then we'll never hear about it & we'll get a story about your dog dying & needing treatment in Fiji for 4 weeks or something or you'll just doctor a final screenshot. ie: your post doesn't suggest you're necessarily in the spirit of the thing.

However, I'm genuinely interested in seeing how you progress as it is still a good enough challenge on core rules. My fear is that we wont hear too much about it beyond how easy Targos was...

I wanted to make some headway into the game before posting all the dry stuff. I'm about the retake the Bridge, so I'll post my builds/tactics after that.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

I wanted to make some headway into the game before posting all the dry stuff. I'm about the retake the Bridge, so I'll post my builds/tactics after that.

Ah yes, and that's exactly the point at which it starts to get interesting!

 

[Average Manatee]

Am I right in thinking that IWD2 doesn't implement the mechanic where power attack w/ a two handed weapon adds twice the normal damage? That would make two handers somewhat trash since there's no good other way to obtain shield AC AFAIK.

EDIT: Also, does IWD2 not let you convert cleric spells into healing spells of the same level? Could have sworn it did but I can't figure out how.

EDIT2: Hold shift while clicking the spell to cast to cast the healing version instead.

 

[Cael]

Am I right in thinking that IWD2 doesn't implement the mechanic where power attack w/ a two handed weapon adds twice the normal damage? That would make two handers somewhat trash since there's no good other way to obtain shield AC AFAIK.

EDIT: Also, does IWD2 not let you convert cleric spells into healing spells of the same level? Could have sworn it did but I can't figure out how.

EDIT2: Hold shift while clicking the spell to cast to cast the healing version instead.

Power Attack doubling for 2-handers wasn't in until 3.5, IIRC.

IWD2 is pseudo 3.0.

 

[the_shadow]

I'm not going to have time to play tonight, but I'll post my builds:

Cleric of Tempus
Half-Orc
Chaotic Good

St: 20
Dex: 16
Con: 18
Int: 1
Wis: 18
Ch: 1

Selected feat: Rapid Shot
-----------------------------------
Cleric of Bane
Human
NE

St: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 13
Int: 12
Wis: 18
Ch: 3

Feat: Spell Focus Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment

---------------------------

Cleric of Mask
Deep Gnome
TN

St: 12
Dex: 15
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 20
Ch: 1

Feat: Rapid Shot

-----------------------------


Cleric Of Lathander
Aasimar
LG

St: 16
Dex: 13
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 20
Ch: 5

Feat: Rapid Shot

-----------------------------

Cleric of Talos
Drow
NE

St: 18
Dex: 20
Con: 14
Int: 5
Wis: 18
Ch: 5

Feat: Rapid Shot

--------------------------------

Cleric of Helm
Deep Gnome
LG

St: 10
Dex: 20
Con: 10
Int: 13
Wis: 20
Ch: 1

Feat: Rapid Shot

------------------------------

Overall I think that's a pretty solid ensemble. I've got a few of the better ECL races (Deep Gnomes of the extra Wisdom, AC and non-detection, Aasimar for the Wisdom, and Drow for the Magic Resistance and bow proficiency), as well as a few non-ECL races so that at least some of my cleric don't lag behind in spell-casting levels. I have the Cleric of Tempus as a half-orc to take advantage of the axe focus. I'm pumping Spellcraft of the Cleric of Lathander to get Spirit of Flame, obviously Rapid Shot is everyone else's first feat because it doubles damage output with slings.

The Deep Gnomes have Int 13 so they can get Expertise for the additional +5 generic AC, and have allocated Search, Disarm Traps and Open Locks between them and the Cleric of Bane.

Combat so far hasn't been much harder than with a balanced party. The only thing I'm really missing is a mage and their crowd control spells (eg. Grease and Web), since fighters in the early game aren't much better at melee/ranged combat than a cleric, and most of your fighting is done with ranged combat. In regards to tactics:

1. The ambush on the Palisade was easily handled by simply luring my enemies to other NPCs. The AI is decent enough to still target you if you're well within their visual range, but you can usually lurk just at the edge of slingshot range without being targeted. You can do something similar with the orcs on the map where you fight Torak, by leading them back to the cleric who casts Flame Blade.

2. The Sleep spell from the Cleric of Mask is pretty useful, but not vital, since you get Hold Person pretty quickly. I'd have to reload a bit more often without it, but I'd still be able to win the fights. Command is also very useful. It's basically a free guaranteed hit for everyone in the party, as long as their hits all connect at the exact same time.

3. The hardest fights in the game are ones where you enter a new area and are immediately attacked by enemies no more than a few feet in front of you. You can't get off more than one volley of missiles, nor can you set up kill zones. The best way to handle them is to pray that they all focus on just one PC, who you can then use to kite the enemies while your other 5 PCs all unload with ranged attacks. Zone switching and then resting if things get hairy is also near essential, and is good for those druids who cast Beast Claw, which tear you apart in a round.

4. Mirror Image on the Deep Gnomes is pretty useful early game as it allows you to soak up some arrows from orc archers while you return fire with impunity.

5. Summon creature 1 is very useful. The AI in this game is good enough that it will almost always target you PCs rather than your summons. However, a good strategy is to block chokepoints with summons and wipe out opposition with ranged fire. This is how I was able to handle the Shaengard Pass.

6. The only things I've bought so far are arrows/stones/slings, the Left Hand of Darkness (best sling early on, and very cheap), and the Sword of Striking (acts as a +5 in determining what it can hit).

One minor point of interest: Werebadgers are affected by Hold Person, but Wererats are not. Badgers are closer to people than rats, apparently.

 

[Cael]

If anyone here can do it & do it well, the winner is the person to finish the Orc Fortress with the most gold.

Not a good measurement of skill in a game where it's possible to grind for loot.

I don't remember any perpetual sources of gold before the Orc Fortress...

Just FYI, dude, you can get quite a number of axe +1 and leather +1 in a certain area and sell them for quite a bit of cash. At least 4 of each, IIRC.

 

[the_shadow]

If anyone here can do it & do it well, the winner is the person to finish the Orc Fortress with the most gold.

Not a good measurement of skill in a game where it's possible to grind for loot.

I don't remember any perpetual sources of gold before the Orc Fortress...

Just FYI, dude, you can get quite a number of axe +1 and leather +1 in a certain area and sell them for quite a bit of cash. At least 4 of each, IIRC.

Where? The only Axe+1 and Leather+1 I've found are from Torak.

 

[Average Manatee]

Defeated the Horde Fortress! Wasn't that hard.

Playing on Insane (which is 2x damage, +10 AB for all enemies). I'd be absolutely overpowered in normal. Unfortunately a bunch of guys with pretty good AC (20-22) is kind of the worst thing for insane thanks to effectively starting 10 AC lower. In retrospect if I wanted to plan for an insane build I should have had everyone with 13 INT and low DEX in order to take Expertise. Right now I have 1 human w/14 INT acting as the tard wrangler/talker while the rest of the party is 1INT orcs. A bunch of humans with 18/12/12/13/3 spread wearing all heavy armor would probably be quite superior for everything but the ranged weapon cheese, which is going to fall off quickly. Unfortunately I did not realize that Cat's Grace was off-limits to divine spell casters, without that dex

That said, still not too bad on insane. So far almost every area has been cleared out without resting midway. The Bridge was saved (area fully cleared without rest), the area with the Drums I needed one rest before the final part vs. the two ice trolls, ogres, and spell casters. My main strategies are:

- Hold Spam. It's good. Not only works against Werebadgers but also Bugbears (including Guthma), which surprised me. Just not Trolls or Ogres. Right now at level 7 I have 20 copies of hold person. With how long it's starting to last it might as well be wail of the banshee, everything hit never gets a chance to fight back
- Horror. It's been the key to tough things like Ogres that Hold doesn't touch. When they have around +15 AB and normal attacks hit for 30+, just sending them running while the party handles the rest of the mob is priceless. 4 copies of this since it's Bane's domain spell. Without this the bridge would not be doable. Rigid thinking
- Summon Monster 1. 90% of these have been used to convert to healing spells but once in a while it's priceless to tie enemies up for just a few rounds. I've avoided using Animate Undead because it's just too OP, instead converting essentially all of my 3rd level spells into healing.
- Buff stacking. Magic Circle Against Evil (+2 AC), Chant (-1 enemy attack, damage, saves), Prayer (-1 enemy attack, damage, saves), Recitation (-2 attack, saving throws), Emotion: Despair (-2 enemy attack/saves/damage), Bane (-1 enemy attack) basically makes insane back into normal in terms of being hard to hit. Normally most of this in-battle crap would take too much time to cast in battle but I can get these off first round and just start tearing things to shreds. This is where Expertise would be invaluable, with these spells and others also boosting AB I'd have no trouble hitting and my effective AC would end up around 38ish with +5 from Expertise.

The nice thing is that I have so many spell casts I can pretty much clear out areas utilizing all of these options simultaneously. Only Horror is really limited.

Getting ready to get on the airship, have 66664 gold to spare. Only big purchases I've made are Pipes of Wheezing Dragon (easy fire spells on hand to kill trolls) and the Shield Amulet (i.e. the "Break glass and have everyone use if things get seriously difficult" item).

 

[aweigh]

Are bards better than rogues in IWD2? I've read conflicting opinions on this so thought of asking here.

 

[Average Manatee]

Are bards better than rogues in IWD2? I've read conflicting opinions on this so thought of asking here.

It has spell casting, so yes.

Bards get some decent spell variety that combines divine and arcane spells. You still want a dedicated divine and arcane spell caster in the party but the Bard can take a lot of the load off them by taking up the utility stuff that doesn't need crazy amounts of spamming or high DCs to be effective. Stuff like Bull's Strength/Cat's Grace/Emotion: X/Spirit armor are all great candidates. They also get some good disablers, like Hold Person/Horror/Dominate (see my post above for how abusive stuff like this are), so Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment will let them screw enemies pretty well. 90% of enemies in most encounters are some kind of fighter so they'll have low will saves to begin with, any kind of DC boosting and you're very likely to score hits. Some of these spells Bards even get a level or two earlier than the "real" casters, like Emotion Hope is level 3 for them where it's level 4 for everyone else, this helps alleviate their overall slower spell slot gaining. Their songs are kind of OK IIRC, don't really remember them much or how abusable the Enthralling one is. Like clerics they make decent fighters when buffed (and with a cleric and a bard you're going to have a lot of buffs to go around).

Rogues trade everything above for the ability to get 1d6 + 1d6 per two levels if hitting the "back" of a monster once per round. It's kind of finnicky and not great to begin with. It sounds nice, but fighters just straight up hit way more often from higher AB while clerics and bards buff themselves enough to essentially be as good as fighters or better. They also have evasion which means you can use them as bait for fireballs and they'll likely take no damage while in the AoE. Actual thievery skills really aren't that important at all.

Overall I think that's a pretty solid ensemble. I've got a few of the better ECL races (Deep Gnomes of the extra Wisdom, AC and non-detection, Aasimar for the Wisdom, and Drow for the Magic Resistance and bow proficiency), as well as a few non-ECL races so that at least some of my cleric don't lag behind in spell-casting levels. I have the Cleric of Tempus as a half-orc to take advantage of the axe focus. I'm pumping Spellcraft of the Cleric of Lathander to get Spirit of Flame, obviously Rapid Shot is everyone else's first feat because it doubles damage output with slings.

I don't think slings are a terribly good idea. Compare:

Left Hand of Darkness w/ normal ammo:

-1/-1 AB (from rapid shot +1 AB)
1d4 +1 damage (2-5, average 3.5)
Crits on 20

Heavy Crossbow w/ normal ammo:
+2 AB
1d8 + 2 damage (3-10, average 6.5)
Crits on 19-20

So you've spent a feat to get a weapon that is going to hit far less, and even if it hits 100% of the time you'd only do .5 damage a round more (not including the crit rate). This is a departure from previous IE games where slings got extra damage from strength, and from D&D 3rd ed where Heavy Crossbows are supposed to take a round to fire and then a round to reload. You do get slightly better AC but that's marginal IMO.

Not sure how it looks down the road with higher levels and better items. Obviously when you get 3+ attacks with slings they might edge ahead, but then taking -7 to your 2nd attack (from rapid shot and the normal -5) means you're getting increasingly unlikely to hit. I do know that there are several crossbows that just flat out give 2/3/4 attacks per round. Probably not enough of them to arm the whole party, but you already have one with bows and the rest can have throwing axes/darts (which do get the strength bonus).

 

[Cael]

Are bards better than rogues in IWD2? I've read conflicting opinions on this so thought of asking here.

It has spell casting, so yes.

Bards get some decent spell variety that combines divine and arcane spells. You still want a dedicated divine and arcane spell caster in the party but the Bard can take a lot of the load off them by taking up the utility stuff that doesn't need crazy amounts of spamming or high DCs to be effective. Stuff like Bull's Strength/Cat's Grace/Emotion: X/Spirit armor are all great candidates. They also get some good disablers, like Hold Person/Horror/Dominate (see my post above for how abusive stuff like this are), so Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment will let them screw enemies pretty well. 90% of enemies in most encounters are some kind of fighter so they'll have low will saves to begin with, any kind of DC boosting and you're very likely to score hits. Some of these spells Bards even get a level or two earlier than the "real" casters, like Emotion Hope is level 3 for them where it's level 4 for everyone else, this helps alleviate their overall slower spell slot gaining. Their songs are kind of OK IIRC, don't really remember them much or how abusable the Enthralling one is. Like clerics they make decent fighters when buffed (and with a cleric and a bard you're going to have a lot of buffs to go around).

Rogues trade everything above for the ability to get 1d6 + 1d6 per two levels if hitting the "back" of a monster once per round. It's kind of finnicky and not great to begin with. It sounds nice, but fighters just straight up hit way more often from higher AB while clerics and bards buff themselves enough to essentially be as good as fighters or better. They also have evasion which means you can use them as bait for fireballs and they'll likely take no damage while in the AoE. Actual thievery skills really aren't that important at all.

Overall I think that's a pretty solid ensemble. I've got a few of the better ECL races (Deep Gnomes of the extra Wisdom, AC and non-detection, Aasimar for the Wisdom, and Drow for the Magic Resistance and bow proficiency), as well as a few non-ECL races so that at least some of my cleric don't lag behind in spell-casting levels. I have the Cleric of Tempus as a half-orc to take advantage of the axe focus. I'm pumping Spellcraft of the Cleric of Lathander to get Spirit of Flame, obviously Rapid Shot is everyone else's first feat because it doubles damage output with slings.

I don't think slings are a terribly good idea. Compare:

Left Hand of Darkness w/ normal ammo:

-1/-1 AB (from rapid shot +1 AB)
1d4 +1 damage (2-5, average 3.5)
Crits on 20

Heavy Crossbow w/ normal ammo:
+2 AB
1d8 + 2 damage (3-10, average 6.5)
Crits on 19-20

So you've spent a feat to get a weapon that is going to hit far less, and even if it hits 100% of the time you'd only do .5 damage a round more (not including the crit rate). This is a departure from previous IE games where slings got extra damage from strength, and from D&D 3rd ed where Heavy Crossbows are supposed to take a round to fire and then a round to reload. You do get slightly better AC but that's marginal IMO.

Not sure how it looks down the road with higher levels and better items. Obviously when you get 3+ attacks with slings they might edge ahead, but then taking -7 to your 2nd attack (from rapid shot and the normal -5) means you're getting increasingly unlikely to hit. I do know that there are several crossbows that just flat out give 2/3/4 attacks per round. Probably not enough of them to arm the whole party, but you already have one with bows and the rest can have throwing axes/darts (which do get the strength bonus).

I don't know because I don't use them, but slings get +Str to damage?

 

[aweigh]

If they don't then they really should... darts as well for that matter.

 

[Average Manatee]

I don't know because I don't use them, but slings get +Str to damage?

I think they do in all IE games except IWD2? It definitely does in IWD1. In D&D it seems to basically flip back and forth every new edition or update. I can search online and find lots of different answers. I think in 3.5e they do but in 3e they didn't, but that's just a guess.

The issue is whether the sling is considered a missile/projectile weapon or a thrown weapon. Thrown weapons get +Str, missile weapons do not. Stuff like Darts and Throwing Axes have always gotten strength bonuses AFAIK.

Realistically Slings should get it. Bows should too. In D&D I believe you can theoretically get a Composite bow that is tuned for any specific strength value (e.g. 26 strength to use and gives +8 damage, if you are weak you suffer penalties), which is realistic. Problem is that it makes hell when you take into account magic items, since there's no way to re-string the epic legendary relic bow of awesome +5 you found from 14 strength to 26 strength. So Bows can't really be strength weapons in practice in D&D, and because the designers want slings to be poor man's ranged weapon rather than the best weapons everyone uses they nerf slings back to uselessness every once in a while.

 

[the_shadow]

Slings do get the +Str to damage in IWD 2. It doesn't show this on the damage range in the character sheet, but they definitely do get it.

 

[Average Manatee]

Well shit, it's true. Really missed out on that +5 strength bonus I've been rocking all game long.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Defeated the Horde Fortress! Wasn't that hard.

Playing on Insane (which is 2x damage, +10 AB for all enemies). I'd be absolutely overpowered in normal. Unfortunately a bunch of guys with pretty good AC (20-22) is kind of the worst thing for insane thanks to effectively starting 10 AC lower. In retrospect if I wanted to plan for an insane build I should have had everyone with 13 INT and low DEX in order to take Expertise. Right now I have 1 human w/14 INT acting as the tard wrangler/talker while the rest of the party is 1INT orcs. A bunch of humans with 18/12/12/13/3 spread wearing all heavy armor would probably be quite superior for everything but the ranged weapon cheese, which is going to fall off quickly. Unfortunately I did not realize that Cat's Grace was off-limits to divine spell casters, without that dex

That said, still not too bad on insane. So far almost every area has been cleared out without resting midway. The Bridge was saved (area fully cleared without rest), the area with the Drums I needed one rest before the final part vs. the two ice trolls, ogres, and spell casters. My main strategies are:

- Hold Spam. It's good. Not only works against Werebadgers but also Bugbears (including Guthma), which surprised me. Just not Trolls or Ogres. Right now at level 7 I have 20 copies of hold person. With how long it's starting to last it might as well be wail of the banshee, everything hit never gets a chance to fight back
- Horror. It's been the key to tough things like Ogres that Hold doesn't touch. When they have around +15 AB and normal attacks hit for 30+, just sending them running while the party handles the rest of the mob is priceless. 4 copies of this since it's Bane's domain spell. Without this the bridge would not be doable. Rigid thinking
- Summon Monster 1. 90% of these have been used to convert to healing spells but once in a while it's priceless to tie enemies up for just a few rounds. I've avoided using Animate Undead because it's just too OP, instead converting essentially all of my 3rd level spells into healing.
- Buff stacking. Magic Circle Against Evil (+2 AC), Chant (-1 enemy attack, damage, saves), Prayer (-1 enemy attack, damage, saves), Recitation (-2 attack, saving throws), Emotion: Despair (-2 enemy attack/saves/damage), Bane (-1 enemy attack) basically makes insane back into normal in terms of being hard to hit. Normally most of this in-battle crap would take too much time to cast in battle but I can get these off first round and just start tearing things to shreds. This is where Expertise would be invaluable, with these spells and others also boosting AB I'd have no trouble hitting and my effective AC would end up around 38ish with +5 from Expertise.

The nice thing is that I have so many spell casts I can pretty much clear out areas utilizing all of these options simultaneously. Only Horror is really limited.

Getting ready to get on the airship, have 66664 gold to spare. Only big purchases I've made are Pipes of Wheezing Dragon (easy fire spells on hand to kill trolls) and the Shield Amulet (i.e. the "Break glass and have everyone use if things get seriously difficult" item).

Congratulations! You are the first posted IWD2 master with a points score of 66,664 gold!.

 

[Cael]

If anyone here can do it & do it well, the winner is the person to finish the Orc Fortress with the most gold.

Not a good measurement of skill in a game where it's possible to grind for loot.

I don't remember any perpetual sources of gold before the Orc Fortress...

Just FYI, dude, you can get quite a number of axe +1 and leather +1 in a certain area and sell them for quite a bit of cash. At least 4 of each, IIRC.

Where? The only Axe+1 and Leather+1 I've found are from Torak.

My little secret

 

[Cael]

Are bards better than rogues in IWD2? I've read conflicting opinions on this so thought of asking here.

Yes, they are. I never play with a rogue, but a bard is indispensible for the talking and sneaking.

Find and disable traps can be done by the wizard as they are both Int based. And when you are slinging around area effect spells from level 3, rogues are pretty pointless in the damage department.

Also, the skewing of the skill point system means that one of the rogue's advantages (oodles of skill points) is minimised/negated.

 

[Cael]

Bows should too. In D&D I believe you can theoretically get a Composite bow that is tuned for any specific strength value (e.g. 26 strength to use and gives +8 damage, if you are weak you suffer penalties), which is realistic. Problem is that it makes hell when you take into account magic items, since there's no way to re-string the epic legendary relic bow of awesome +5 you found from 14 strength to 26 strength. So Bows can't really be strength weapons in practice in D&D, and because the designers want slings to be poor man's ranged weapon rather than the best weapons everyone uses they nerf slings back to uselessness every once in a while.

There is an enchantment for bows in PnP that does exactly that: variable strength bonus.

Also, slings should not work with Rapid Shot. Rapid Shot allows you to make an extra attack per round, but the problem with slings (and crossbows) is not that you can't make multiple attacks per round, it is you need to take a move equivalent action (or more) to load the damned thing. Rapid Shot does not affect load times. You can negate this for light crossbows with the feat Rapid Reload, but it doesn't solve the loading problem for slings and heavy crossbows.

So yeah, that is pretty much a game limitation exploit (due to how weapon number of attacks are set up or limited in IE).

 

[laclongquan]

Bard is irreplaceable for taking dialog skills and casting various support spells. Rogue is irreplaceable for disarm traps.

Bard is worse than wizards or sorcerers in term of spells, but their support spell mean you can free more wizard slots for firepower.

Also the three dialog skills ruin a character, but it ruin Bard less than other.

 

[Krivol]

Bard is irreplaceable for taking dialog skills and casting various support spells. Rogue is irreplaceable for disarm traps.

Bard is worse than wizards or sorcerers in term of spells, but their support spell mean you can free more wizard slots for firepower.

Also the three dialog skills ruin a character, but it ruin Bard less than other.

What is biggest CR for a trap in this game?

 

[Jigby]

Bard is irreplaceable for taking dialog skills and casting various support spells. Rogue is irreplaceable for disarm traps.

Bard is worse than wizards or sorcerers in term of spells, but their support spell mean you can free more wizard slots for firepower.

Also the three dialog skills ruin a character, but it ruin Bard less than other.

What is biggest CR for a trap in this game?

There are traps that have removal rating of 100. I'm not sure how the 3.0 edition skills are mapped into this remnant of ADnD. Generally speaking, the early game traps are weak enough, that you can disable them even with a high int crossclass guy, late game traps can be eaten with your large HP pools. You have to install Light of Selune for more challenging traps.