Might and Magic The Might and Magic Discussion Thread

I'm using MUNT with a cm-32l rom for the sound in World of Xeen, such a huge upgrade from the stock sound! It took a bit of ini configuring and running the Xeen installer in dosbox to get it working but it was well worth it.


I also just started a merged playthrough of MM6-8 in the MM8 engine ( https://www.celestialheavens.com/forum/10/16657 ), I'm early in MM6 and it's going fine so far, though I don't seem to be able to hire NPCs like you could in vanilla MM6. Also I have 5 party members instead of 4 in the original, so it's less balanced. Still, I'm super happy this merge works, since I was having a reputation bug in the vanilla GOG release of MM6 that was causing me to lose reputation within 5 minutes of playing, for no apparent reason.

There's also no thief class available in the merge, so I went with an archer who I am teaching disarm trap and perception. Hope that works out for me in MM7.

 

Interesting, here's my sound settings, same ones for Terra and Xeen.

sbtype=sb16
sbbase=220
irq=5
dma=1
hdma=5
mixer=true
oplmode=auto
oplrate=22050

Maybe i should try yours but i watched some guy let's play in youtube for xeen and the sound is not as good as mine as far as i can tell; the guy can't shut his clap for 1 second ...

 

I remember fiddling around with the settings trying to recreate what it sounded like on my old 386 computer and sbpro2 seemed to be the closest to it. The soundblaster 16 is a slightly newer card than the soundblaster pro though I'm not sure what the differences would be or even if there might be an issue with the emulation of one over the other.

For the metallic sound for arrows, do you mean that *pang* type sound when you hit monsters with arrows? Yeah that is fine. But I don't recall hearing a telephone ringing when you open doors. Sounds like a weird sampling error.

 

Ah sorry, for some reason I assumed you had an SC-55 too. That's really weird though, I don't understand why the SC-88 would work differently with resets. It also doesn't make sense - there MUST be a way to reset the device mode, otherwise you'd never have access to the GS tones ever again! I never had or used the SC-88 though so I'm afraid I can't help. You might want to try searching for similar issues with resets - there's a surprising number of retro gamers with Roland devices and one of them might have found a solution.

Resets on the CM-500 are quite easy IIRC (I don't have one, but I remember Jaesun mentioning doing this on his). If you do end up hunting an SC-55, try to get the mkII if you can, it has a few extra tones that I don't think many games use (I've suspect for a long time that WOX does but could never prove it) but more importantly it can play more instruments at once, so there's less chance of something not playing because all channels are in use.

Yes, yes it is. There are good software alternatives but nothing that I've heard sounds exactly like a real SC (unlike Munt which at this point is indistinguishable from a real CM-32L or CM-500), the way certain tones play is really obvious in some specific games like WOX, Doom, Stonekeep or QFG3. Speaking of Warcraft, try playing the first game with an SC; I used to think the music was great on an SB16, but it's really something on an SC.

It's interesting to compare the SC (especially the SC-55) to more modern modules. Some tones on the SC-55 clearly show the age of the module, even the piano sounds flatter than say the JV-1080, but there are certain subtleties in the way the module plays tones, and it's obvious composers had a specific sound when composing on the SC-55. You can really hear this in the jungle themes in QFG3, where the African-style percussions sound fantastic on the SC-55 but sound more and more off the more modern the module is (even as the general quality of the samples goes up). Same with the piano in the Pagan intro - the piano sounds fuller and much closer to a real piano on modern modules, but the individual notes somehow sound more garbled and less distinct. It's like listening to a virtuoso on a shitty recording versus a shitty player on a crystal-clear recording - personally I'd rather have the former.

WOX was composed on the SC-55, and it shows, but I've always been impressed by the quality of the CM-32L port and how much effort NWC put to make sure it sounded as good as you could possibly get from the older module.

To make a long story short: original SBpro uses the OPL2 chip for synth sound. SBpro rev2 uses 2 OPL2 chips in stereo mode - in games that support this mode (Dragonsphere is one of them) the music sounds distinctly better. SB16 upgraded to the OPL3, but back to using only one in mono. The actual sound quality of the OPL3 is obviously better, but there's a depth from using stereo OPL2 that you can never get with the OPL3. I can never decide which one I like more in games that support both, but it's usually a non-issue because as far as I can tell all those games support either MT-32/CM32-L or Sound Canvas, and are in fact usually composed originally for either module, and will usually sound better than any OPL (YMMV, some OPL recordings are considered the best by many).

 

Apparently, setting oplrate to 49716 gives a more authentic sound, as that was the internal sampling rate for the OPL chips and other rates can affect the instruments relying on feedback effects (like percussion). You can still set the mixer rate at something lower to keep the downsampled output without affecting the FM synthesis.

 

I searched all over for SC-55mkii rom, I don't think it exists on the internet. Couldn't find the CM-500 either. I've heard about the Roland Sound Canvas software now available, but I heard some people have some problems with it cutting out or something. If it works well for old games in the future, I might pick it up.

What do you think about soundfonts? Are they as good as MUNT emulation with a rom?

 

I fooled around with this for a bit, and got it working!
I tried MIDI-OX (Windows) and GSPLAY (DOS) to send a GS reset prior to launching WOX, but it didn't work. I could've sworn that I tried a hardware reset on the SC-88 itself (hold "select" and press Instrument < and >) and it didn't change anything, but I tried just now and it was fine. I must have got the timing wrong or something previously.
Thanks for all the help!! WOX sounds glorious on SC

 

I'm jealous newtmonkey.

 

Barbalos
Sadly, there doesn't seem to be a way to get the SC experience, without actually having a physical SC.
MUNT with cm-32l rom is very very good though, I'm not certain the upgrade would be worth tracking down the hardware, to be honest (if you do a lot of DOS gaming, though, it's definitely worth it).

 

For sure newtmonkey, I think it was Sceptic in an old thread who said that an SC-55mkii would be the best way to hear WoX. But finding them on ebay is a bit expensive, so I likely won't do that. I'm wondering if this new Sound Canvas software from Roland will be good eventually. I might buy it if it pans out nicely, but for now I hear it has some bugs that limit it. The CM-32l is such a big upgrade from the default (GOG) settings that it's good enough for now, for me.

I feel retarded for having played through Might and Magic 3 with the 'stock' sound setup, good lord that is trash! I might have to play through it again with the MUNT emulated sound. I've not heard it for MM3, but I'm hoping it is as big a difference as in Xeen, it really changes the tone of the game.

 

The MT32 is definitely amazing hardware, and MUNT at this point is extremely close (if not perfect) to actual hardware. Lots of general midi/sound canvas games have decent to great MT32 support as well, so you aren't missing out on TOO much.

If you haven't already done so, you might try sitting down one night and just trying a bunch of dos games with MT32 enabled (it's what I did when I first got my MT32).

[Edit] Forgive me if you've already tried all of these, but if you want to hear some truly WOW NIGHT AND DAY differences between OPL synth and MT32, try Legend of Kyrandia (although they did a very good job with OPL also), absolutely anything by Sierra running on the AGI engine (Quest for Glory 1 & 2 are particularly impressive imo), Adventures of Willy Beamish, Secret of Monkey Island (especially the title song), and Ultima Underworld (combat music is just okay, all other music is amazing).

 

Thanks for the recommendations Newt! I will definitely try a few of those sooner or later. If the MUNT emulation is close to the mark, I will content myself with that. I didn't know what I was missing!

For now I'm playing MM6 in the merged MM8 engine, and damn, I didn't remember the music being this good! It really is excellent.

 

So glad you got it to work. Enjoy. And remember you can do this with any other game that doesn't do a proper GS reset and that sounds strange (I kinda do it as a standard now whenever starting a GS-specific game)

Just keep in mind that, when I bought mine a few years ago, they were going for $50, and that was the mkII; the original was even cheaper. Now even the original is over $150. Prices will only go up as time passes.

But there are alternatives. I don't think soundfonts sound as good, and they certainly won't have the perfect fidelity (see some of the specific examples of games I mentioned above), but a good soundfont will certainly sound much better than OPL, and for games that were composes for the SC they'll sound better than MT-32 mode too. I once played around a bit with this GS soundfont and found it pretty good, people more versed than I might suggest an even better one.

 

Is there a website that shows which Dos games were primarily designed for which sound system? I always wonder what's the best to choice

 

Thanks for the information Sceptic . I'm new to this sound emulation stuff, so it's valuable and interesting to me. I will stick with the cm-32l via MUNT for now.

 

There is a decent list on Wikipedia (search for MT-32 Games on Google, should be within first few results. It even includes information on what device the soundtrack was composed for, when that info is available (for example, it mentions that Ultima 6 is an OPL composition converted to MT32).

 

There's one on the 'dex

I'll do a similar list for CRPGs. One day. Promise.

 

Thanks, that's really useful

 

Sceptic and anyone walking on the clouds

Is there a recording of someone playing Xeen with *the best* sound configuration ever somewhere so we mere mortals could check what we're loosing ?

 

Here's one with the "SCC1-SoundCanvas board" (as per the creator) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR0UkXRMb38

And here's one with the CM-500: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHcx_uL4eCM

As far as I can tell, you'll have to shell out some cash to get the *best* setup. Otherwise, MUNT with a rom seems to be the best you can do..

 

The SCC1, SC-55/SC-88, and CM-500 SHOULD all be same (I do believe that all three support GS standard; I know for a fact that CM-500 and SC-88 sound exactly the same, as I have both devices).

You might want to keep an eye out for SC-88 on Ebay. It's got an SC-55 map setting for what I believe is 100% backwards compatibility. When I was first searching for Roland hardware on Yahoo Auction, I ended up getting an MT-32 and SC-88, because the SC-55s were much more expensive for some reason. (This was 4-5 years ago, dunno what the situation is like now/elsewhere).

If you are a big DOS fan, it's honestly worth getting a Sound Canvas if you can at all afford it. It's something you'll pull the trigger on and never have to worry about again. Between that and MUNT, you will be all set for every DOS game ever.

 

I am a big DOS fan.. so I might have to do that. I was hoping the new Sound Canvas software might do it, but it will probably never be as good as the real thing. Thanks for the info, newt..

 

Wow, that's good indeed, even the fly at the beginning sound a bit weird with my dosbox setup.

Is there another one with the arrow impact sound ? Watched that one which doesn't have any metallic impact but it does have a metallic impact on CC : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HjYlJYE2Rs

By the way, it has a different dragon/opening, the intro music is a bit weird though.

Edit : wrong video

 

Ya Darth Canoli the sounds vary wildly between the different emulators/stock sound. I'm not sure about the arrow impact sound. After I realized how bad the stock GOG install sound was, I pretty much settled on the CM-32l with MUNT as my final choice. As near as I can figure, you're gonna have to spend some money to get better sound than that..

 

Playing WOX on CM-500 (identical to MUNT with CM-32L roms) is VERY close to SC-55, even the custom sound effects are the same or at least very similar. They really did a good job converting it "down" to the MT-32 (well, specifically, CM-32). I wouldn't get a Sound Canvas just for WOX. The reason to get a SC is for everything else, DOOM and Doom engine games, Duke3d, Descent 1, the latter Sierra/Lucasart/Origin games, ANVIL OF DAWN ESPECIALLY, Betrayal at Krondor, etc...

As much as I love the Sound Canvas, the MT-32 (and thus MUNT) is way more impressive to me. When I was playing Adventures of LOLO on my NES with BEEP BOOP music, rich kids were enjoying a truly amazing soundtrack that would have simply blow my mind on Hero's Quest/Quest for Glory 1 on their expensive PCs.

There is also something to be said about the MT-32 being a "closed" system with it's own standards that were taken to the limit by clever developers/musicians for some truly amazing music. They could afford to put the effort into really pushing the hardware, because they knew the experience would be the "same" for everyone who had an MT-32 (I put "same" in quotes because the CM devices added new voices [just sound effects]).

Although most latter DOS games seem to have been composed with Sound Canvas in mind, I feel that because they had to follow the General MIDI standard, they just had to work with what was in the standard already. Some musicians did amazing work with General MIDI/Sound Canvas (Bobby Prince and Lee Jackson come to mind [Doom, Duke 3d, Rise of the Triad; the Anvil of Dawn and Warcraft 2 soundtracks are also stunning on Sound Canvas)... however, the Sound Canvas did not WOW me as much as the MT-32 did. I mean, even ruling out custom programming, games like Secret of Monkey Island show how powerful the MT-32 is.