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Incline The more you play ToEE (Temple+) the more you enjoy it

Darth Canoli

Arcane
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Jun 8, 2018
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Perched on a tree
I took back my last playthrough of ToEE and realized knowing the best parts of the game allows you to avoid the underwhelming parts (Hommlet quests, half the temple's first floor) and focus on the good parts (Elemental quests, Nodes, some Nulb's quests).

The party you create will also play a huge part, picking the right party for your play-style is far more important in ToEE than in any other cRPG i've played.

I've launched the game a lot of times but never fought Zuggtmoy until now, usually, i stop after Hedrack's fight, which is really good.

Also, monks are not very good in most cRPG (except for the robot monk in Wizardry 8) and i think i've read they were worthless in ToEE.
Turns out they're overpowered (except my monk could barely damage zuggtmoy for some reason, armed or unarmed so he would tank and heal the cleric :roll: )

Party i used this time :
  • Monk for tanking/dealing damage (staff and unarmed)
  • Rogue (shortsword/rapier) for damage purposes
  • Cleric for tanking / cleric spells and to ease the pain against undead early on (shield + heavy mace)
  • Sorcerer (enlarge, fireball, grease, stink cloud, the usual suspects ...) - sling
  • Bard specialized in enchantment (they get these spells earlier) - crossbow, would go with a bow if i had feats to spare (archers bracers don't seem to work, unfortunately)

I wanted to go for a 4 men party but added the 5th "useless" one for fun, turns out the bard isn't that useless, just the opposite.

Details on the party :

Rogue
Cleave, opportunist, greater cleave, vexing flanker, Two weapons fighting ...
He does the job, greater cleave + some dex bonus is amazing, one handed early on two handed later with vexing flanker + two handed feat + shortsword, great damage dealer, a real plague for your enemies once buffed (heroism or greater + enlarge)

Monk
2 attacks from the beginning with flurry of blows, amazing tank, he's a beast once buffed (heroism or greater + enlarge), of course opportunist feats + greater cleave + enlarge = massacre.

Cleric
Invaluable against undead, great tank, interesting spells, the cleric is vital.

Sorcerer
I've always preferred sorcerers over wizards, unlike the cleric's spells, you won't use most wizards spells anyway so having more of them ready when you need them is invaluable (enlarge and grease mostly, these two win battles on their own)

Bard
Interesting buffs, early enchantment spells (tasha's hideous laughter is amazing), what's not to like ?

I killed Zuggtmoy with that team without destroying the skull (lacked the windthing scroll, had one at some point but sold it) at level 10, i'm not saying it wasn't tedious.
Afterward (Co8 install) i was catapulted to Verbonosc which was underwhelming so i took back the last save to clean the nodes
Next step Hedrack and then come back to Zugg and maybe go on with Verbonosc (or not)

Anyway, even if i didn't get the good ending before, i played the game many times and it was my most enjoyable playthrough (tackled good and evil quests all the same as usual) so far.
 
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Darth Canoli

Arcane
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Jun 8, 2018
Messages
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Perched on a tree
Hommlet is fun if you make an evil party.

Never cared much for slaughtering NPC.

I tried to be on Rufus and ??? side by murdering the cabinet maker once but nothing happened, maybe because of how i handled Lareth the beautiful, never checked a walkthrough either.

Actually, i find the Temple quest very interesting "evil" quests, you don't find that often.
Still, i wish they made a longer game and added the possibility to climb the ladders of the Temple by slowly gaining the Temple trust and then betraying your rivals (which you kind of do but it's quite fast with 3 missions by temple and it doesn't raise your status) in a long quests succession.

What i wanted to say is the evil side should be more often about rising in power, getting on the good graces of the good and evil side all the same and in the end, you betray them all, killing everyone isn't evil, it's just insane and boring.
 

Bricker

Educated
Joined
Feb 25, 2019
Messages
88
Absolutely agree with the title! I have the same feelings. Thanks for the thread!
 

Darth Canoli

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
5,687
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Perched on a tree
Some random thoughts

Rewards from saving Thommel and the princess? (14 days)

Not sure if it's a Co8 + Temple+ fix
I got them both after 14 days.
I didn't use teleport to get Thommel to Hommlet (which is said to be required to shorten the reward delay) but used the burnt farmhouse as an exit

Did anyone try the murdering quest in Hommlet (Burne and rufus) ?
I killed the cabinet maker once but could never get farther. Is it linked with the broken tower ? Any hidden quests afterward ?

I wanted to list the best encounters from the game but i realize it'd be faster to list the worst ones, still :


- The whole moathouse (the giant frog attack is really good for a level 2 party)
This dungeon should be played by every cRPG dev (and maybe the whole game at leasdt twice), the encounter variety and difficulty is amazing, it's just perfect.

- The King frog obviously

- Emry Meadows
The hill giant with the Bear is a tough and interesting one early on, it feels great to kick him in the balls.

- The Temple Priests (Air after he moved to the central room, Fire Commander and the greater salamanders, Water Priest with the Leviathan, The whole earth temple near their pyramid)

- The Lamia and the fungi

- The Minotaur

- The ogre cave

- The Harpies on the first temple level

- The giant cube jellys (there's 2 or 3 of them) just because it's quite an unusual monster

- The legion of shadows on level 3

- The Broken Tower fight

- The undercover Assassin on level 3

- The mage and his minions on level 4

- The Arena of Heroes (Co8 addition i think)

- The 4 Nodes Guardians, the Balor from the fire node being my favorite, obviously

- Hedrack & Iuz, althought i never managed to defeat Iuz (wanted to buff the cleric to death to reach an insane AC but wounded Hedrack too early this time), i know there is some "cheats" to beat him.

...

Co8 content
Postgame : Verbonosc is really underwhelming, feels like a worst version of Hommlet, same size but useless NPC and useless merchants wasting your time

The Arena of Heroes is amazing

The Bog's area and quest feels like it deserved better it's both easy and tedious, unfortunately with almost good ideas (illusions) that should have been developped or replaced by something better.
 
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Sitra Achara

Arcane
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
1,859
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
Some random thoughts

Rewards from saving Thommel and the princess? (14 days)

Not sure if it's a Co8 + Temple+ fix
I got them both after 14 days.
I didn't use teleport to get Thommel to Hommlet (which is said to be required to shorten the reward delay) but used the burnt farmhouse as an exit
What about it?
It doesn't matter which exit you take or teleport. Fixed by co8 (me actually :)).

Did anyone try the murdering quest in Hommlet (Burne and rufus) ?
I killed the cabinet maker once but could never get farther. Is it linked with the broken tower ? Any hidden quests afterward ?
It's a vestige of Troikas intention to add the Assassin PRC. IIRC you have to kill all 3 targets in one swoop for it to complete. It doesn't lead anywhere anyway.
 

Darth Canoli

Arcane
Joined
Jun 8, 2018
Messages
5,687
Location
Perched on a tree
What about it?
It doesn't matter which exit you take or teleport. Fixed by co8 (me actually :)).

I was wondering if i found a loophole, good to know.

It's a vestige of Troikas intention to add the Assassin PRC. IIRC you have to kill all 3 targets in one swoop for it to complete. It doesn't lead anywhere anyway.

It's a shame, i don't like to kill NPC but if there's quest to do so, that's another matter entirely.
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
7,496
Location
London, UK
Strap Yourselves In
Am I the only one who actually enjoyed the Hommlet quests as the start of the game? To me it felt right to start "quietly," not like some big hero sauntering into town, to get gradually involved with the locals where I was staying, and to build up really slowly to being an effective killing machine.
 

Max Damage

Savant
Joined
Mar 1, 2017
Messages
661
I've only ever done (some of) them once. Thing is, the rewards aren't that great unless you want to max out you party size and get a couple of OK items. The quests themselves are very boring and mostly divorced from the meat of ToEE which is combat. The only one I ever do nowadays is Deklo Grove, unlocks you a nice spot to farm those first 1-2 levels.
 

volklore

Arcane
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
1,650
I made the mistake of making a Paladin in my first ToEE playthrough. Unless you are willing to limit your options dratically, I would advise against it. There is a lot of fun options in the Temple, but all of them seem to make your paladin fallen.

I was contemplating playing the game again with a less limiting party, would people here recommend using the Co8 extra content ?
 

_Vic_

Educated
Joined
Aug 15, 2019
Messages
56
I cannot agree more. Great game but really short. It would be nice if they have made a "Secret of bonehill" mod/DLC with this game engine.
At least they have replayability.
 

Jvegi

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 16, 2012
Messages
5,095
Why are the fonts so small and why is fixing it so complicated? I still have a whole party to create and the fucking village to go through.

I'll never play this game. There is no way.
 
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Jason Liang

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
8,348
Location
Crait
I'm not sure which versions kept it, but you can charm any npc or monster to be in your party and you keep them permanently if you resurrect them from death. It's similar to Arcanum but even more straightfoward. So the most fun I had (outside of playing it straight) was to go around charming everyone, making a list of their stats, and religion. Some characters follow gods that are not allowed PCs, and if you give them cleric class, they have unique domains as well!

There are some pretty awesome monster PCs you can make as well, for example Beholders, Lamia etc...
 

Sitra Achara

Arcane
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
1,859
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
Why are the fonts so small and why is fixing it so complicated? I still have a whole party to create and the fucking village to go through.

I'll never play this game. There is no way.
Changing the fonts is easy (you can frèely remap them in temple+ to custom fonts or whaatever), but expanding the ui to accomodate the larger sizes is generally not. Co8 increased them as much as the6 could, but that's generally no more than size 12 fonts.

Having said that, I recently did a rewrite of the dialog UI, so i could increase the size to whatever if I have the graphics to match. Does anyone care to have a stab at it?

I was also thinking it'd be cool to have infinity engine style dialog ui option, but then I reviewed them and it didn't seem like such a good idea for high res... bleh
 

Jason Liang

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
8,348
Location
Crait
I found sorcerer really bad iin ToEE. Terrible until at least level 6 and a Wizard is always ahead.
 

Max Damage

Savant
Joined
Mar 1, 2017
Messages
661
In sorcerer's defense - I like having one for spontaneous casting between something like Deep Slumber or Fireball, depending on situation. He also makes great use of Heighten and Empower Spell, in case you want to make painless choice between that Stinking Cloud or Heightened Grease. You don't really NEED to have such versatility from a spellcaster (focused Evocation wizard trumps all, not in small part due to Quickened Magic Missile), but I find it really nice to have for those "ambushed during rest" encounters. Yes, being behind Wizard in spell progression (and feats) does make Sorcerer lower on the power graph, but still way above all the non-full caster classes. In the end it all depends on how much you like spontaneous spellcasting (NWN/ToEE Sorcerers and KotC Wizards are my favorite kind of mages). For me the "empty" Sorcerer level is 3, where he really is behind Wizard, but that passes over pretty fast.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
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Messages
35,792
Why are the fonts so small and why is fixing it so complicated? I still have a whole party to create and the fucking village to go through.

I'll never play this game. There is no way.

ToEE's intended resolution was 800x600. Don't go any bigger than that.
 

Alistair

Barely Literate
Joined
Aug 19, 2019
Messages
4
Location
The People's Republic of Antartica
Why are the fonts so small and why is fixing it so complicated? I still have a whole party to create and the fucking village to go through.

I'll never play this game. There is no way.

ToEE's intended resolution was 800x600. Don't go any bigger than that.
I tried getting TOEE's resolution to around 1920x1080 but to no avail as anytime I started the game, it would immediately crash. So I decided to just use one it interger. Minus the additional pixelation, the text and fonts both seem to be a massive inprovement over my first method.
Note: This included the Circle of Eight mod.
 

biggestboss

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 16, 2017
Messages
528
I use Temple+ and the built-in Temple+ configuration let me set up whatever resolution I wanted without any problem. Also included with Temple+ is a way to change/increase the size of the fonts although making them too big will conflict with the margins and make everything almost unreadable.

Authoritative source: https://www.moddb.com/mods/temple1/features/temple-faq

Q. The fonts are very small in high resolution!
A. You can tweak font sizes. Go to

C:\Users\[YOUR USERNAME]\AppData\Local\TemplePlus\app-1.x.xx\tpdata\

Copy the fonts folder to

[TOEE FOLDER]\overrides\

And tweak the file mapping.json. There's an example file newfonts_mapping.json that replaces all the fonts. Be aware that some text might spill over if you enlarge it too much.
Also, the Co8 mod already replaces a lot of fonts with size 12 fonts, so it's recommended to play with it.

Q. Can I bring in my own fonts using this method?
A. Yes
icon_smile.gif
 

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