The New DOOM Thread (2016)

I prefer Quake II's physics over the first Quake, but the atmosphere, artistic direction, level design, weapons and soundtrack are so much better than Quake II.

Don't know if this has been posted yet, but Mark is pretty pissed: http://i.imgur.com/btTHake.png

Apparently id Tech 6 is this: http://www.maximumpc.com/article/fe...erview_rage_id_tech_6_doom_4_details_and_more

 

And why should you run away from enemies in the first place, on an FPS of all places?

 

That interview is from 2008, ergo irrelevant.

 

People should be punished for not reading shit they link. It's just a typo in the title...

 

Good or not (it lacked subtlety of a proper sniper weapon and quirks of proper punch-thru-shit railgun which is what I criticized, though overall it was solid if unimaginative piece of offensive hardware - typical of Id) it was overpowered in the context:

• minimal ammo consumption - you could barely use up any slugs doing the same sort of mayhem that would take you half of your stored ammo if you used CG or BFG instead.
• it effectively superseded already broken SSG in terms of brokenness and gameplay niche - even higher damage and game-breaking stun at roughly the same rate of fire, equivalent ammo consumption, but at arbitrarily long range and with ability to pierce multiple foes - there was no gameplay situation in which SSG would be effective but RG wouldn't.

If RG was slower to fire and allowed you to carry about 25 slugs then it would be balanced, if most cybernetic enemies (non mutants) had some actual armor, but weaker enemies sometimes attacked in droves then SSG and CG would be balanced - and more interesting to use - as well.
In short, the enemies you fought in Q2 prevented differences between weapons from manifesting as actual gameplay factors - if you saw a gunner, you coud stunlock it with a burst of MG and kill it, or stunlock it by shooting it once with SSG then kil it, or do the exact same thing with RG or RL, if you saw a tank, you could kill it (or two at once) by just bursting with CG before it could even react, or shoot it with BFG, or burst it with HB for exact same effect.
The thing is all those, very different mechanically, weapons performed the same in same gameplay situation because the gameplay failed to be more involved than executing hapless, effectively unarmoured (in terms of mechanics) tincans one by one.

Q3 had completely different dynamics and was focused on MP - apples and oranges.

Also:

Git gud.

Since in Q2 you weren't fighting enemies as much as executing them, pretty much every other FPS wins the SP gameplay comparison with Q2 by default.

Except in Q2 you can not run past them but basically walk up to them and kill them dead, one by one.

They are supposed to be menacing space cyborgs, but it is you who can put up the T-800 police station routine with them, except without getting shot nearly as much (though for similar effect if you do - enemy attacks have no impact in Q2 which is another nail to its coffin - why is enemy damage halved in an already piss easy game?)

 

Holy shit Lyric Suite.

 

He just went full retard.

 

This is an obvious example of how your arguments operate. Its all about semantics with you. "Enemies are too smart? Hurr durr u r stoopid". Except that wasn't the point, because "smart" doesn't necessarily mean good in this case. It all depends on how its done. A good example for instance is hitscan enemies with perfect accuracy, which are "difficult", but not necessarily fun, and "getting good" is besides the point in that situation, as it is with Unreal.

Essentially, the problem is that there is no real interaction between the movement of the enemy and that of the player, no real rhythm, and therefore no actual "game play", which was aggravated by the fact the enemies didn't respond very well to your own hits. Either way, their routines were written to be too erratic to be predictable, which reduced your strategies and paradoxically made player skill less important and made save scumming too inviting, even if Epic obviously tried to compensate by filling the game with ammo and health, which reduced the difficulty significantly. Now it would have been great if only the Skaarj operated that way, since it is not uncommon for a game to have that one erratic and unpredictable enemy, which is cool. But the whole game was made like this. Even dodging missiles from those lumbering brutes felt meta as fuck sometimes, since missiles would randomly be fired on the sides, which made it feel like the enemy was psychic at times.

Now don't take me wrong here. I think whoever wrote those routines was an extremely talented programmer (i take he is the same guy who wrote the AI for the bots, which was ace), and by modern standards that game was a masterpiece in every sense. But compared to things like Doom or Quake, Unreal just felt irritating and unfun, and Quake 2, despite its flaws, was definitely in that class of games, where gaminess was king and enemies weren't made uber smart purely because of how good that might have looked on paper, regardless of the results in terms of actual gameplay.

 

Lyric Suite DraQ is very autistic about Unreal and Quake2. His measure of a game's quality is based on its difficulty first and foremost. He's got tunnel vision. Don't waste your time.

 

That's why I like Morrowind so much.
Probably.

Also PS:T.

Unlike all the enlightened Q2 fans on board, I presume.

The thing is I can and have already explained in detail why and how Q2 sucks, while all you can apperently do in response is articuating vocalizing your butthurt about it.
pictured: butthurt.

If you're right and I'm wrong why can't you rebuke what I said?

Which fortunately isn't the case with Unreal.
Besides even hitscan enemies with perfect accuracy may work if you get some means of dealing with them that doesn't make encounters either formulaic or random.
Q2 is all formulaic.

Are you a nigga?
Because that's the only reason I can accept (postironically, of course, with a hint of faux-racism) for prioritizing rhythm in an FPS.

Player skill is about analyzing the changing situation then reacting apropriately, not coming out with some inane "strategy" consisting of looped several seconds of input that can be applied mindlessly in 100% of encounters.

And Q2 effectively features no player skill element because its skill ceiling is somewhere between severe Parkinson disease and suffering from hypothyroidism in one's childhood.

Yes, being able to hit moving target is being fucking psychic.
How about you actually watch the enemy and projectiles and move out of their way instead of mindlessly moving in a pattern you feel ought to be effective?

People like you are why

were invented and prosper so well.

Aprreciated.

I can understand why someone may not like the sort of combat Unreal has, with relatively few but individually challenging, "dodgy" enemies. Really, it isn't everyone's cup of tea.
The problem is that Q2 was unfun compared to just about everything else as well - no matter where you came from Q2 lost.
If your ideal is Doom like combat then Q2 is still shit because you get very few enemies (that deal vanishingly low damage meaning they can't get medieval on your ass) that are nevertheless slow to react (meaning they can't buffer their slow reaction speed with the fact you won't manage to take them all out before they get medieval on your ass) and that don't really differ much in terms of gameplay.
For example in Doom a tomato was very different from baron of hell due to pain chance alone - tomato could be easily chaingunned or chainsawed into stunlock but BoH couldn't.
OTOH in Q2 if you can stunlock something you can stunlock it all the same with MG and SSG.

Built in godmode is not gaminess and doesn't result in good gameplay.

 

You should read shit others link though, because carmack mentions a future tech 6 in a single sentence on page 2.

 

How do you get the PSX soundtrack to play during the game?

 

I'm playing it separately through the VLC/surround sound... making the track loop, switching tracks at each stage.. Turning down the music on the ps3 game..

 

I found this.

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/57957-psx-doom-final-doom-tc-version-2-1-now-released/

 

That's the only time that id Tech 6 has been stated of what it's going to be though.

 

While Q2 is deffo much easier than Q1 (assuming you try to fight stuff instead of going full sonic) I don't recall the hardest difficulty of Q2 having hitstun at all, let alone stunlock.

 

the only reason why enemies in Unreal were challenging was because the weapons sucked. fucking hard. they may have been imaginative, but they were awful. other than that, they were slightly smarter than the average AI of the time, and Q2 AI may or may not have been slightly stupider than the average. whatever the case, the only AI even remotely approaching the definition of "challenging" was (and still is, when it comes to FPS) in bots. all the rest is just slight variations of hollywood stupid

 

If one day i'm ever designing an FPS, i'm calling Draq to help me. Geeze.

I think Quake's biggest failure was the scenario. Just to start, there's zero design consistency - between Quake 1, 2 and 3 the world changed completely three times. I know lore isn't exactly the most important part of a shooter, but what the hell? I personally liked the Strogg concept, but the problem with the whole series is that all three games have typically just one color. Quake 1 was mostly brown, Quake 2 was always gray (every fucking room, every fucking map, everywhere), and Quake 3 was exclusively warm tones (yellow, orange, red). The problem with this is that after some time playing the game, you quickly get tired of the maps, and they all start looking the same for you when most of them have the same colors. Unreal 1 was extremely varied in the map and color department (compare: Terraniux with the water god's temple) and this ensured that, visually, the game was always fresh. I think this is something Quake failed to do, funnily enough, in every single one of their games.

Speaking of variety, Unreal's weapon variety > Quake's. I felt that several of Quake's weapons were redundant or unimaginative. Edit: I won't lie though, many of the weapons in Unreal sucked ass, at least the razorjack and biorifle. Or should i git gud?

Going back to the thread, the title says that id ripped off Brutal Doom, seriously? Where's that, i can't find the damn thing (with all these pages)

 

Doom (4)

 

At worst they were somewhat underpowered.
I noticed that to be satisfying an FPS weapon should have some 1-hit potential (not guaranteed, but possible) against something and for powerful weapons this something should be a typical or stronger foe and Unreal weapons, sadly, don't pass this test above easy.

Actually, the Q2 AI was a bit smarter than average, to the point of some reviewer jizzing over themselves because of it. The thing is it still was pretty dumb, clumsy at level navigation, while also being crippled by ridiculous reaction and attack preparation times.
Q1 had noticeably dumber AI but it was still at least nominally challenging and satisfying to play.

Unreal's AI, OTOH wasn't just a bit smarter than average, it was, and still is, pretty fucking smart in all areas but teamwork. It was programmed by guy who was essentially *THE* bot AI programmer back then and it showed.

Well, it could have worked if they actually felt like menacing space cyborgs instead of bunch random cripples. You don't need spazz mehreens to fight such threat, a bunch of potato policemen will do.

Not coincidentally my favourite enemy in Q2 was Medic - because it was the only enemy that reminded me that I'm not fighting a random bunch of cripples with clunky prostethics and shouldn't feel bad about it. It was also the only enemy seeming to possess something along the lines of an AI.

True. At least Quake 1, while visually monotonous, cycled through several distinct themes and featured some distinct, memorable stuff in its maps.

Not even close to Unreal's variety, but enough to make it work.

It was worse in Q1 where SSG was pretty much SG++ and SNG was very definitely NG++, but Id never really excelled at making interesting weapons. At best they made good shotgun cycling sounds.

Of course you should!

Ok, biorifle wasn't the most interesting weapon (although it shone against pupae) and RJ could use, apart from generic damage +50% that should be applied to the whole arsenal, ability to continue through enemies (as did very mechanically similar and devastating in confined spaces axe in Hexen II ).
My least favourite Unreal weapon was Stinger, though. It was basically worse minigun and and worse flak cobined into one and available early in game, that you only used against bullet sponges due to always having surplus ammo for it and inability to end such fight with several powerful shots anyway.

 

What's with all the Unreal elitists?

 

Autism.

 

VS brain mush - which is better and why??

Discuss!!

 

Sorry if we're pooping in your party. So, uhh! Doom, huh? Reboot. "Context-specific takedowns". Anyone excited?