The women of Caesar's Legion shouldn't have all been slaves

[Trashos]

They try and give a minor amount of grey to The Board (like they did Caesar's Legion) by introducing a problem that maybe sorta justifies their actions near the end. However it still leads to a pretty "evil" ending. There is definitely a lot of grey in aggressively fighting The Board though, because you're hurting a lot of "little people" who aren't evil. It's a relatively good encapsulation of the issues with revolution/"terrorism" as a way to fight authoritarian governments.

If Obsidian wanted to give the Legion and their system a fair chance, they would have attributed them only with the bad features that stem from the same origins as their good features. That's what they did with the NCR, for example. Instead, the Legion's system was presented with its good and its bad, and then the woman enslavement idiocy was added on top for no apparent reason. "But you know what, they also enslave all women, LOL". It was like Obsidian suddenly realized that militant dictatorship was looking fucking cool in their game, and resorted to over-the-top measures to solve the "issue".

Anyway, from the descriptions it looks like once again, as in New Vegas, Obsidian tried to portray their main factions as the grey and the greyish evil. I don't really know why they do that instead of straightup having grey vs grey.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

They try and give a minor amount of grey to The Board (like they did Caesar's Legion) by introducing a problem that maybe sorta justifies their actions near the end. However it still leads to a pretty "evil" ending. There is definitely a lot of grey in aggressively fighting The Board though, because you're hurting a lot of "little people" who aren't evil. It's a relatively good encapsulation of the issues with revolution/"terrorism" as a way to fight authoritarian governments.

If Obsidian wanted to give the Legion and their system a fair chance, they would have attributed them only with the bad features that stem from the same origins as their good features. That's what they did with the NCR, for example.

More than that, they even whitewashed the NCR by not properly presenting the issue of the barons which the NCR has back home.

 

[DalekFlay]

Anyway, from the descriptions it looks like once again, as in New Vegas, Obsidian tried to portray their main factions as the grey and the greyish evil. I don't really know why they do that instead of straightup having grey vs grey.

With New Vegas the issue was time supposedly, they didn't have the ability to flesh out the Legion's good sides like they wanted to. With Outer Worlds it feels more like "The Board is obviously evil but we need an ending where you side with them anyway so..." They both fail really, but for different reasons. I agree grey-on-grey would be better, and I hear the Doctor has some issues in the "good" playthrough I haven't seen yet, but I would definitely prefer a handful of factions that each have good and bad in them and your decisions has more to do with how your character feels politically/socially. The faction system in this game is one of its biggest weaknesses overall, IMO. None of it really matters outside the Board or Anti-Board choice.

 

[LudensCogitet]

They try and give a minor amount of grey to The Board (like they did Caesar's Legion) by introducing a problem that maybe sorta justifies their actions near the end. However it still leads to a pretty "evil" ending. There is definitely a lot of grey in aggressively fighting The Board though, because you're hurting a lot of "little people" who aren't evil. It's a relatively good encapsulation of the issues with revolution/"terrorism" as a way to fight authoritarian governments.

If Obsidian wanted to give the Legion and their system a fair chance, they would have attributed them only with the bad features that stem from the same origins as their good features. That's what they did with the NCR, for example. Instead, the Legion's system was presented with its good and its bad, and then the woman enslavement idiocy was added on top for no apparent reason. "But you know what, they also enslave all women, LOL". It was like Obsidian suddenly realized that militant dictatorship was looking fucking cool in their game, and resorted to over-the-top measures to solve the "issue".

Anyway, from the descriptions it looks like once again, as in New Vegas, Obsidian tried to portray their main factions as the grey and the greyish evil. I don't really know why they do that instead of straightup having grey vs grey.

This is a really good point. Honestly presenting the factions and their beliefs (with good writing of course) could lead to some very difficult choices and even some self reflection ("Why do I feel so bad that this seems so good?")

Actually, whatever else one thinks of the game, I've found Jeff Vogel's new game Queen's Wish to actually contain several dramatic choices of that variety (Not really sure how much C&C results from those choices, but that's another question for another thread).

 

[Wesp5]

I don't really know why they do that instead of straightup having grey vs grey.

Maybe because in fiction as in reality not everything is grey, but some people are outright evil? I said it already and I repeat it again: a good story often needs a good villain, otherwise it might end up boring! I haven't seen any good villains in TOW yet, only a lot of mad and incompetent white males struggling against strong and diverse females...

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I don't really know why they do that instead of straightup having grey vs grey.

Maybe because in fiction as in reality not everything is grey, but some people are outright evil? I said it already and I repeat it again: a good story often needs a good villain, otherwise it might end up boring! I haven't seen any good villains in TOW yet, only a lot of mad and incompetent white males struggling against strong and diverse females...

I agree, but the depth of a character unavoidably gives it some shades of gray. A 'pure evil' antagonist can only be a metaphysically evil one (think of the D&D derived planes) and that's more often than not boring.

To give a concrete example, do you prefer the Archdemon and the Broodmother of Origins or the Architect and the Mother of Awakening?

 

[DalekFlay]

*insert "why not both" gif here*

 

[Heroic Liberator]

*insert "why not both" gif here*

That's best, but the White Frost or the Darkspawn cannot work without grey antagonists besides them. In that capacity, the former serve as a backdrop for a good narrative enriched by the latter.

 

[Roguey]

and then the woman enslavement idiocy was added on top for no apparent reason. "But you know what, they also enslave all women, LOL". It was like Obsidian suddenly realized that militant dictatorship was looking fucking cool in their game, and resorted to over-the-top measures to solve the "issue".

Everyone's a slave in the Legion. Able-bodied men fight until they die. Women breed until they're unable to, then they work the fields alongside the men who cannot fight. Those who live in Legion-occupied territories continue life as usual.

 

[BlackGoat]

Here's how you make a good villain

Spoiler

 

[Viata]

Here's how you make a good villain

You behead their mother?

 

[fantadomat]

Here's how you make a good villain

Spoiler

No,that is retarded faggot villain,kill the boy,gang rape the woman and then kill her too! That is how a true villains act!

 

[eXalted]

How many Bulgarians are here in this forum ..

 

[Orma]

How many Bulgarians are here in this forum ..

That's a lot of gypsies for a neo-nazi forum

 

[fantadomat]

How many Bulgarians are here in this forum ..

In this thread alone i counted three,maybe four .

Orma you are a disgusting tranny kebab that should be made in to pig's soap! It is real decline that Erdogan didn't bring back the tranny throwing!

EDIT:In the older thread i counted them,before infi decided to split this authistic thread. I am yet to count them in this one.

 

[Trashos]

and then the woman enslavement idiocy was added on top for no apparent reason. "But you know what, they also enslave all women, LOL". It was like Obsidian suddenly realized that militant dictatorship was looking fucking cool in their game, and resorted to over-the-top measures to solve the "issue".

Everyone's a slave in the Legion. Able-bodied men fight until they die. Women breed until they're unable to, then they work the fields alongside the men who cannot fight. Those who live in Legion-occupied territories continue life as usual.

The men are initially slaves, but then they are trained to believe in the cause. They are not slaves anymore, they are soldiers. Nothing like that for women, they remain mere slaves. It is not roman-like, and it causes further inconsistencies when the main character is female but Caeser still wants to work with her (I am guessing, I never tried it). Any way you look at it, it does not fit. It is completely lol-random.

 

[Roguey]

They are not slaves anymore, they are soldiers.

They're conscripts. Fighting slaves.

It is not roman-like, and it causes further inconsistencies when the main character is female but Caeser still wants to work with her

Caesar admits his society isn't Roman and is only using the trappings of it because it's so alien compared to every other identity in the wasteland. He also has no problem with women. Using women as breeding machines is simply a means to getting as many fighting men as fast as possible (and also a fetish of Josh Sawyer's since it's a reused idea from Icewind Dale II).

 

[Trashos]

They're conscripts. Fighting slaves.

Caesar admits his society isn't Roman and is only using the trappings of it because it's so alien compared to every other identity in the wasteland. He also has no problem with women. Using women as breeding machines is simply a means to getting as many fighting men as fast as possible (and also a fetish of Josh Sawyer's since it's a reused idea from Icewind Dale II).

Do you really not see the difference? At the very least, men are given the option to believe in the cause. The Legion characters we meet are enjoying themselves. And then, the strategy changes for women completely.

I do not remember Caesar's admittance that they are not really roman-like, but I have no reason to doubt it. It sounds like the writer was trying to excuse all the inexcusable decisions by the narrative designers there.

Women do not have to be slaves to be breeding machines. They have been breeding machines without being slaves for thousands of years. Caesar is a well-read guy, he must have known.

 

[fantadomat]

reused idea from Icewind Dale II)

Which part was that? My memory is hazy on it.

 

[fantadomat]

They're conscripts. Fighting slaves.

Caesar admits his society isn't Roman and is only using the trappings of it because it's so alien compared to every other identity in the wasteland. He also has no problem with women. Using women as breeding machines is simply a means to getting as many fighting men as fast as possible (and also a fetish of Josh Sawyer's since it's a reused idea from Icewind Dale II).

Do you really not see the difference? At the very least, men are given the option to believe in the cause. The Legion characters we meet are enjoying themselves. And then, the strategy changes for women completely.

I do not remember Caesar's admittance that they are not really roman-like, but I have no reason to doubt it. It sounds like the writer was trying to excuse all the inexcusable decisions by the narrative designers there.

Women do not have to be slaves to be breeding machines. They have been breeding machines without being slaves for thousands of years. Caesar is a well-read guy, he must have known.

He also saw how the liberal society ended the world,so decide not to risk it again with muh equality . The only bad thing was that they didn't finish the legion and just left it as the muh bad goys.

 

[S.torch]

Do you really not see the difference? At the very least, men are given the option to believe in the cause.

What about the courier? Even if she is a woman, Caesar praise her achievements anyways, and nobody else in the legion downplay them.

 

[Roguey]

At the very least, men are given the option to believe in the cause. The Legion characters we meet are enjoying themselves. And then, the strategy changes for women completely.

Their choices are fight or die. They're enjoying themselves because any dissenters are dead.

Women do not have to be slaves to be breeding machines. They have been breeding machines without being slaves for thousands of years. Caesar is a well-read guy, he must have known.

They do when you want them having as many kids as it's humanly possibly to have within their fertile period. Caesar's trying to build the biggest army he possibly can, he has no time for feelings.

Which part was that? My memory is hazy on it.

The Legion of the Chimera rape prisoners of the war regularly and systematically to make more hybrids so they can have more hybrid creatures for their hybrid society and wage war/defend themselves agains the normies.

 

[aweigh]

men are given the option to believe in the cause.

women believe it too, they are proud to give birth to new soldiers. it is called doing their duty. Hail ceasar ^_^

 

[Trashos]

aweigh, that's the way it should have been. But in the game it is not.

fantadomat, I am not saying that women should have been equal to men in Caesar's society. I am saying that they should not have been slaves.

Roguey, so your argument is that women were slaves because that's more efficient for producing soldiers? I will keep this in mind for next time humanity is in need for kids. I do not know if what you are saying is true, but no such argument is given or in any way supported within the game.

 

[Roguey]

Roguey, so your argument is that women were slaves because that's more efficient for producing soldiers? I will keep this in mind for next time humanity is in need for kids. I do not know if what you are saying is true, but no such argument is given or in any way supported within the game.

Until now, every tribe I've conquered has been so backwards and stunted, enslavement has been a gift bestowed upon them.

There will be no failure this time, no retreat, no years of gathering slaves and resources for another assault.