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Top 10 role-playing games

Gwendo

Augur
Joined
Aug 22, 2004
Messages
989
There are games in that list that wouldn't be in my top100.

For me, a RPG must make you forget that you're playing a game, that that NPC is just a scripted entity with dialogue text attached. Avernum/Geneforge series, with their due merit, are just too bland, artificial and repetitive, for example.
 

elander_

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Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
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Surlent said:
How exactly were PST, Arcanum and BL mainstream ? BL strived to be, but releasing it on the same week as Half Life 2 can cut some sales, does it not ?
edit: perhaps you meant them as commercial projects, yes ?

Actualy i meant that games like Starflight and Daggerfall are more hard than necessary and were obviously made for a specific target in mind. Daggerfall was made for dungeon crawlers and people who played pnps and Starflight expanded on Elite but added dialog role-playing a dynamic world that changes by itself and multiple ways to solve problems with trading, diplomacy combat. There was even a chain of plots to follow and the history of your race to discover. I think it was the first game to do this at a grand scale. However for todays players patience these games are hard and frustrating to play. Just imagine spending 20 minutes collecting minerals on the surface of a planet on a screen that is almost like the old spectrum games or spending 2 days in a Daggerfall dungeon without geting to see the exit.

The games i mentioned as being mainstreamed are more accessible to a wider population. They seamed to me they lost a bit of their crpg features by doing that. They become a tad more linear or action oriented or too much focused on the main quest.

Lumpy said:
I agree that Civ games are somewhat RPGs, since you can play different types of nation leaders. You can win the game through diplomacy, science, war, etc.

The world is certainly fit for a crpg but Civ lacks chargen crpg gameplay. You can't develop you leader background, birthplace, skills, attributes, etc...

A good example would be that leaders of other nations could use a biography trait (for example your leader doesn't have noble blood) to damage your reputation. Your overall charisma high and whatever you do it is harder to get your rep damaged. Or with an high inteligence research would cost twice less than to the other leaders. Stuff like that.
 

HiddenX

The Elder Spy
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Divinity: Original Sin Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Some time ago over at rpgdot Michael C, I and some others developed a rating system for rpgs - it's not finished or perfect, but it is good to think about:


Note: A game with a score of 4 is not "better" than a game with a score of 2, it only means that it has more rpg elements.


VERSION 0.6

To determine if a game should apply to a certain level, all the mentioned demands must be fulfilled in that level and the levels below.

CRPG Categories: Story, Characters, NPC’s, Game-world, Manipulation, Combat.

Other interesting categories: Graphics, Sound, Game length, Difficulty, Perspective and Play-style.

Each category is divided into 6 frames from "none" to "Heavy" CRGP-elements giving a score from 0 to 5 points.

A games points from each category will be added together and then divided with 6 and will classify it's CRPG-score to the following list:

RPG-Elements Score 0 - < 1 point => "No CRPG"
RPG-Elements Score 1 - < 2 points => "CRPG ultra light"
RPG-Elements Score 2- < 3 points => “CRPG light
RPG-Elements Score 3 - < 4 points => "CRPG"
RPG-Elements Score 4 - 5 Points => "CRPG Heavy"

The RPG-element categories and their 6 scores/frames.

STORY:

No: 0 Points:
-The story is told in the beginning, and finished in the end, AND is not changeable during the game.

Ultra light: 1 point:
-A Few ”events” (NPC’s, happenings (Disasters, divine influences etc), Full movies interludes etc.) evolves the story, but still in a given path.

Light: 2 points:
-The story is developing through chapters or milestones, which still have an almost fixed path.
-A very few side stories/quests, OR noticeably different paths you can take to advance the same story, are available.

Medium: 3 points:
-The story develops as the game proceeds, meaning new information’s/events contribute for developing of the story on a frequent basis.
-Events (See above) impact on the story are considerable,
-The gamers actions have considerable impact on the development of the story.
-More than one path is possible in the ”main” story. Not necessarily more endings, just the possibility to choose between different “story” path’s of the “main story”. (Side quests not directly related to main story don’t count).
-A few side stories/quests besides the “main story” must be available.

More: 4 points:
-A few different endings is possible
-More than 2 ways to go through the story
-Lots of side stories/quests are required.
-Quests or tasks got often more than one solution!

Heavy: 5 points:
-Very open ended, with very high replay value regarding the story alone.
-Many events will contribute to many side / main story topics and respond to many different approaches from the player.
-Lots of books or other materials can give additional information’s about world for the interested player.

CHARACTERS:

No: 0 Points:
-No development other than a better weapon, armour and a few pre-distributed skill points after each chapter / milestone.

Ultra light: 1 point:
-Max 2 points to distribute on the character(s) abilities (Attributes /spells / treats / skills) each time they develop levels and a maximum of 10 upgrades(Levels) of the character(s). Learning by doing covering the same amount of development is acceptable too.

Light: 2 points:
-Max 5 points to distribute on the character(s) at least 5+ different abilities (Attributes /spells / treats / skills) each time they develop levels and at least 10+ upgrades(Levels) of the character(s). Learning by doing covering the same amount of development is acceptable too.
-A minimum of social development / regards in the game-world societies is necessary) (Wiping out a society/guild is not counting)

Medium: 3 points:
-More than 5+ points to distribute on the character(s) at least 10+ different abilities (Attributes /spells / treats / skills) each time they develop levels and at least 15+ upgrades(Levels) of the character(s). Learning by doing covering the same amount of development is acceptable too.
-The characters can have considerable social impact on more than one society / guild. (Wiping out a society/guild is not counting)

More : 4 points:
-Now a party of at least 3 fully controlled characters should be possible,
-The choice from different professions / races should give a combination of at least 10 possible different characters (Note: Different mug-shots don’t count).
-Considerable social impact on more than 2 societies / guilds is possible. (Wiping out a society/guild is not counting)

Heavy: 5 points:
-More than 10+ points to distribute on the character(s) at least 15+abilities (Attributes /spells / treats / skills) each time they develop levels and at least 20+ upgrades(Levels) of the character(s). Learning by doing covering the same amount of development is acceptable too.
-+15 different races/ professions to choose from.
-Plenty of societies/guilds which the characters have a social impact on. (Wiping out a society/guild is not counting)

NPC's:

No: 0 points:
-Few NPC's most only merchants.
-Pre-determined dialogues.

Ultra light: 1 point:
-The dialogues now have a few options, but it still contribute to the same story, AND each choice is reversible in consequence.

Light: 2 points:
-NPC's are presented in small societies, AND some of them can make a difference in further development of the game.

Medium: 3 points:
-NPC's acts truly as a part of a bigger community.
-NPC's in each society are much aware about social status also toward your characters.
-More than one society with NPC's are present in the world.

More: 4 points:
-There are fleshed out dialogue trees,
-Choices is most final and irreversible.
-NPC’s have considerable impact on the amount of Main / side- stories.

Heavy: 5 points:
-NPC's are aware of the continuously developing situation in the game-world, AND react clearly to the gamers actions and deeds.
-More than 2 bigger societies of NPC's must be available.
-Reputation, skills, alignment, attitude etc. have considerable impact on the NPC reaction.

GAMEWORLD:

No: 0 points:
-The task to get from A to B has no or few options to go away from a fixed physical path.
-The game-world only inhabits monsters and a few merchants.
-The world is without (none monster) societies.

Ultra light: 1 point:
-Still a strict physical path, but with a few small societies on your way.

Light: 2 points:
-A few areas are optional on your path each chapter / milestone.
-Societies will give some quest / story material.

Medium: 3 points:
-There are at least several physical path's to choose between, AND more will open up as the game proceeds.
-Societies must give the feeling of a live community, with their own daily business, AND not just a few NPC's waiting for the hero's to come along and pass on a few quests.
-The size of the game-world must be considerable.

More: 4 points:
-Societies must be very different and have strong relation to the game-world and each other.
-We are no longer talking about a few path's when exploring the world.
-The appearance of monsters and societies must make common sense.

Heavy: 5 points:
-The world is totally open for extreme freedom to explore, AND it's your own task to decide if your character(s) are good enough to take on the different part of the world.
-The diversity of the game-world environment must be significant.
-Day & night cycles, and different weather conditions and /or different seasons.

MANIPULTION:

No: 0 points:
-Almost no action possible besides walk/run and combat, except maybe a very few items.
-Game-world itself is very static.

Ultra light: 1 points:
-Very few limited interactions besides walking and combat.
- A few chest barrels is scattered through the game.

Light: 2 points:
-There are a few weapons, armours, items in the game.
-Traps, levers, keys and alike is available in it's simple presence.

Medium: 3 points:
-The game-world have a considerable amount of weapons, armours, items, skills, spells in significant variations.
-The things to do will quickly fill up more than one page in your journal, AND keep it that way for most of the game.
-Custom items must be available. (Custom items are items that can’t directly be found in the game-world, the player needs to either combine more items or process an item with (Fire, acid, poison, magic, tool-masters etc (repairing items don’t count)). It’s not limited to weapons and armour only)

More: 4 points:
-You can see /influence changes in the environment, OR use it either to create/ manipulate things or get strategic possibilities in combat. (Summarised: Game-world environment itself offers several interactivity possibilities: (Chopping trees, make fire, diving in water, hide behind objects, move/destroy/manipulate objects, etc.)
– A few different ways of making custom items must be available. (See above).

Heavy: 5 points:
- Many different ways of making custom items must be available. (See above).
-Alchemist, spell-casters, smiths, herbalist and other item collectors are in heaven due to the tons of items for manipulation.
-Game-world environment itself offers many interactivity possibilities: (Chopping trees, make fire, diving in water, hide behind objects, move/destroy/manipulate objects, etc.)

COMBAT:

No: 0 points:
-You put your character(s) into position and they solve combat on their own, or the combat result is only affected by your skills on the keyboard.

Ultra light: 1 point:
-Real-time combat only without any pause options.
-Options are limited to the choice of the opponent to attack.

Light: 2 points:
-Character skills and/or players strategic abilities have a noticeable more impact on the outcome of the battles too.

Medium: 3 points:
-Players can more decide the pace of the battle,
-Strategic positions of the party is more vital, and the options for each character is more plentiful.
-At this point it's also important that monsters offers some diversity not only in numbers, but also in strategies necessary to win.
-Monsters AI are more than attacking the closest enemy!
- There must be more issues for your characters during combat, than loosing or giving hit-points. Ex. Poisoning, paralyse, curse etc.

More: 4 points:
-Their must be alternatives to swing your sword and cast a spell during combat Ex. Skills, traps, spells, treats, or items to use in battles.
-Different strategies are necessary for survival.

Heavy: 5 points:
-Each characters can be controlled individual down to the smallest detail and in any pace wanted.
-The monsters must offer a lot of difference both in numbers, abilities, battle environment, which must offer quite a diversity in battle approaches.
- Monsters AI are considerable.

OTHER NON-RPG RELATED INTERESTING CATEGORIES:

GRAPHICS:

An “Year” of evaluation should follow the graphics score!
We try not to express how beautiful the graphics is (It's difficult to separate entirely), just how many specific graphic technology elements it contains (Like shadows, lightning etc), and it's standard compared to others at the time of the review!

0 points: Text only.
1 point: Static pictures, and/ or low 2D resolution in relation to other games in the year of evaluation.
2 points: Higher 2D resolution in relation to other games in the year of evaluation.
3 points: Mediocre 3D or 2D with up to date standard compared to others in relation to other games in the year of evaluation.
4 points: Fully 3D with up to date standard compared to others in relation to other games in the year of evaluation.
5 points: Fully 3D. Absolute among the best in it's category, with a few ground breaking content compared to others at the time it is reviewed.

SOUND:

This determines the amount and the degree of acoustic technologies in the sound, not directly the quality or realism of the sound, and not how many different sound boards it covers.

0 Points: No sound.
1 point: Mono sound.
2 points: Very sparse and basic Stereo sound
3 points: Plentiful Stereo sound
4 points: Support of more than 2 speakers, and considerable environmental sounds.
5 points: Fully real surround sound support (At least 5.1), with ultra real 3D feeling

LENGTH:

An average length is used for calculation, a second score in “( )” for maximum hours searching under every stone and solving every quest could be mentioned if it brings the game into another score-area.

0 points: Under 8 hours.
1 point: 8 - 20 hours.
2 points: 20- 50 hours.
3 points: 50- 80 hours.
4 points: 80 - 150 hours.
5 points: over 150 hours.

DIFFICULTY:

0 points: No brain teasers at all, only walk /run and hack 'n slash
1 point: Easy brain teasers that don't slow the game pace down considerable.
2 points: Some problems (Riddles, events, combat, NPC's etc) can make you stop for a short while until you find the relative easy solution!
3 points: Not all problems are obvious in solution, but there are more possibilities to get help. The amount of problems must also be considerable.
4 points: Some problems can't be solved without help/things from other places or without some in vain tries first!
5 points: The game is loaded with more or less hard problems, and many problems can only be solved by extensive brain use!

PERSPECTIVE:

A Non-score category:

TXT: No perspective (e.g. no graphics), text games.
FIX: Fixed viewpoint (Not changeable).
FLEX: Flexible distance/orientation . The viewpoint distance can be changed and/or the screen can be rotated.
ISO: Isometric view ( Any angle between vertical top-down and 1.st person view, but still seen from above the party/ characters.
SHOULDER: The close overhead / shoulder view, where the gamers viewpoint follow the character(s) heading, with a look just above the head/shoulders of your character(s), and the character(s) can be seen in the button of the picture.
FP: The 1.st person view where gamers viewpoint is the same as looking out of the eyes of the character(s)
BIRD: From the sky the players has a vertical down view point on the game-world.
SIDE: View points like Platform games or the elder Kings/Space quest games

EX:
Might & Magic VII: Perspective: FP
Diablo 2: Perspective: ISO-FIX
Summoner: Perspective: SHOULDER/ISO-FLEX

PLAYSTYLE:

A non-score category.

SP: Single player
MP: Multiplayer
OP: Online play possible
MMO: Massive multiplayer online!
Co: Co-operative multiplayer possibility
PvP: Player versus player mode in multiplayer mode.
P: Parties possible.
S: Single character game

EX:
Might & Magic VII: Style: SP-P
Diablo 2: Perspective: Style:SP-S, MP-Co/PvP, OP-Co/PvP
Summoner: Perspective: Style:SP-P,MP?

A conclusion on a game could look like this:

Might & Magic VII
RPG Factors: Story: 3, Character: 5, NPC:3, World: 5, Manipulation:4, Combat: 4.
RPG Score:= 4.0 => "RPG heavy"
Other Factors: Graphics:2 (1998?), Sound:3, Length:3(4), Difficulty:4, Perspective: FP, Style:SP-P.
 

Linedog

Novice
Joined
Jun 1, 2003
Messages
63
Location
San Francisco, CA
Greatatlantic said:
Great comments and all, but you do realize you bumbed a 6 month old thread? Oh well. Fallout FTW.

Time. What is time? Besides, look at all the productive posting which has ensued.[/quote]
 

Linedog

Novice
Joined
Jun 1, 2003
Messages
63
Location
San Francisco, CA
Surlent said:
Grave fucking deluxe. Can we get special name tags for people who raise topics from the dead ?

Nothing really dies, it just changes form. And by the by, I have a very special name tag for you, but it's up your mamma's ass. I'm sure you are quite familiar with how to retrieve it.
 

elander_

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Messages
2,015
HiddenX said:

It's allways good to have exaustive criteriums to evaluate crpg. If people who revise games would be more prophesional and followed something like that we could trust more waht we see in review sites.

That rating system is a bit outdated. I mean it doesn't take into acount forms of gameplay that can be used for role-playing like trading, social status and diplomatic relations, dialog and persuasion. Later games like planescape and bloodlines have changed our perception of crpg gameplay a bit. This stuff doesn't exactly come from nowhere. Pnps have allways been and continue to be where most innovation starts.

There are other aspects of that rating scheme that can be contested. A game needs to show stats and attributes to be a crpg and the more stats it has the bigger rating it gets. Stats don't make a crpg and they can be hiden from the player. It's how the world and npcs react to the player and the consequences the player actions have in his status and the world he intercats with that counts. Some recent pnps and a few games like Call of Cthulu (which aren't crpgs by the way) tried to go a little further with this.

PS: However if someone decides to follow the usual way of showing stats to the player i think it's perfectly ok to use that rating scheme.
 

HiddenX

The Elder Spy
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Divinity: Original Sin Shadorwun: Hong Kong
To make a crpg-rating in Michael C's system easier, I am asking myself the following questions for the categories:

GAMEWORLD:
- are you free to go everywhere, anytime you want ?
- How many different societies are in the game ?
- How many different landscapes (forests, wastelands, mountains,...) are in the game ?
- Does a day/night cycle exist ?
- Does a calendar (summer, winter, ...) exist, maybe with a weather system ?

COMBAT:
- how many tactics, strategies, spells/counterspells you have to use to survive in combat ?
(remark: this has nothing to do with real time vs. turn based combat. example: Rage of Mages: Real time and very tactical)
- Are there many different monsters, enemies ...
- how good is the enemy KI

- Is it critical for combat to have a good equipment management ?
- Do you need resistances against poison, fire, ... to survive ?
- how complex is the enemy artificial intelligence ?

STORY:
- How many quests, side quests, puzzles, riddles are in the game ?
- How great is the non-linearity of the game - can the quests be solved in more than one way ?
- How many side-stories, legends in books or from NPC's are told ?
- Are there different game-endings ?

NPC-INTERACTION:
- How many dialogues are in the game ?
- How many dialogue options do you have ?
- Are these options depending on your skills, alignment or deeds ?
- Have your answers an influence on the game ?
- Have the NPC's a life of their own ?
- Is trading available / is it balanced ?

GAMEWORLD MANIPULATION:
- Can you manipulate the gameworld ? (levers, buttons, secret doors,...)
- Can the gameworld manipulate your character(s) ? (traps, teleports, ...)
- Can you pick up items, herbs, raw materials and then mix new potions, make new weapons,... ?

CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT:
- How many different characters can you play ? (race, gender, profession, ...)
- How many different skills can be choosen for your character(s) ?
- How many different traits can be choosen for your character(s) ?
- How many levels can be reached ?
- How much can the character(s) be changed at each level ?
- How many guilds, groups can be joined ?
- How many different ranks in these guilds can be achieved ?
- Can you get a reputation ?
 

elander_

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It's hard to find an objective rating for crpgs if not impossible that doesn't restrict the genre. Someones good criteria have to be a little ambiguous.

Heres my take on it:

GAMEWORLD:

The game world simulates part of a world big enough to have one or more societies in conflit in their day to day life in the most credible and immersive way possible. The physical laws that govern the habitants of this world apply to every one including the player in the same way.

Notice you can have a futuristic crpg and in that landscape and day/night cycles may not apply. In the same way a weather may not apply either. Even the idea of being free to go anywhere is tricky because crpgs even good ones restrict the player from going to certain places but in a "natural" way.

An important criteria has to do with the world non-linearity of events. How many things can happen at the same time. A dynamic world where events happen without the player intervation is a world that breeds life of it's own and simulates the complexity and deep of a mature crpg much better.

I think that if you divide the crpg world in world types you can then use more objective criteria.

COMBAT:

Combat is too much abused in crpgs realy. This is only one of the many possibilities of gameplay a crpg can offer to solve problems and interact with the world. I think the important thing here is how skills are respected no mater the way the player chooses to solve a problem. Skills impose an upper limit to how well the player can do a certain action. And the more granular and specific skills are the easier it is to balance the game and to create more beliavable and complex characters.

I don't think that spells, tactics and strategies are essential for crpgs. They are essential for combat to be fun but some worlds may not have spells for example. Also what is a monster? It's a type of npc that allways attacks the player. This breaks the criteria that social interaction must be as realistic and mature as possible. Even animals must have a more inteligent behavior than that. AI is allways a good think in particular for the game manager AI that controls the game and enforces the game rules.

STORY:

In a good crpg stories are told from the mouth of crpgs or from books where the story of things passed are described.

I don't know how many stories and quests must be made. It all depends on how much are necessary to provide enough role-palying experiences for each character to experience the world from his shoes. It also depends on how much of the world the game designer wants to show to the player.

About different game-endings i would say better yet not have a game ending or a main quest. A different criteria would be asking does the game has a ending or a main quest and if the main quest is just another quest or all quests turn around this main quest.

NPC-INTERACTION:

Npc interaction is very important. It's how the player percieves the social side of the world and how he changes the world. The most interesting side of crpgs come not from combat but from dialog.

Most important in crpgs is that different social types should solve problems in different ways. If a crpg only provides a minimal amount of ways to solve problems (like only combat most of the cases) it's very hard to create a deep crpg this way.

Trading is something that may exist or not in the world but is also good gameplay and one that is proved to work in many games. If it is present it should work naturaly and in a beliavable way with the rest of the world.

GAMEWORLD MANIPULATION:

I wouldn't say this is essential but the more ways to manipulate a game world the more beliavable the world is and the easier it is to create interesting quests and suprising events. More material to work with. I don't consider this however mandatory to rate a good crpg. Being able to pickup herbs and potions depends on the type of world.

CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT:

Character representation is the easier part. I think an hardcore game should provide at least a complexity that is comparable to Fallout or Gurps light. This could be name, gender, race, physical customization, background, startup inventory, class, perks, quirks, attributes, skills, affiliations per faction, reputation per faction.

An average crpg could get away only with the basic name/gender/customization plus atributes and skills and a basic system of reputations and affiliations.

Joining a faction or a guild and if a guild provides status (ranks) or not again depends on the world. There may be other ways to do afiliations.

Development is the path you make with a certain character in the game world. As the player explores the world with that character and interacts with the world in ways that are adequate for him he will increase his skills, build a certain reputation and social links (afiliations) with npcs. The player builds his story and it's important that the rules are believable, the world is believable, reactions are believable, interaction is believable, dialogs are well writen, characters are interesting for this to be a good story.

This is a point of view biased towards pnps but i think it gives a good idea of what an hardcore crpg represents.
 

HiddenX

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some good points elander_

maybe Michael and I were to fixated on combat and stats.

-> we both like strategic turn based fighting like Wizardry 8 and Jagged Alliance.

But I would really like to see a combat free crpg - something like the "The Longest Journey" with character development. Maybe some people would call it an adventure then.

It's hard to find an objective rating for crpgs if not impossible that doesn't restrict the genre

True - all reviews/ratings are subjective - we only want to be fair and don't want to miss something. In the end we need a system to categorize a crpg for other players to answer the question:

"Is this a game for me or not ?"
 

TheGreatGodPan

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A Tale in the Desert is a combat-free MMORPG. I believe there are quite a few combat-free p&p RPGs.
 

sheek

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Vault Dweller said:
<blockquote>1. Fallout
2. Planescape: Torment
3. Fallout 2
4. Arcanum
5. Baldur’s Gate 2: Shadows of Amn
6. Deus Ex
7. Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines
8. Ultima 7: The Black Gate // Baldur’s Gate
9. System Shock 2 // Gothic 2
10. Elder Scrolls 2: Daggerfall</blockquote>

-I would take Planescape, Ultima, Gothic and Daggerfall out of the list. They're not really that great.

-I haven't played BG2 or Vampire.

-System Shock 2 and Deus Ex aren't RPGs (and Deus Ex is not a good game).

-I would bump Arcanum above Fallout and add Arkania and Darklands to the list

1/ Arcanum
2/ Fallout
3/ Arkania
4/ Darklands

A 'second-tier' list would include:

Fallout 2
Planescape
Arx Fatalis
Gothic
Albion
 

Zomg

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Didn't you just play through Arcanum for the first time this week, sheek?

So why aren't Deus Ex and SS2 RPGs, as opposed to games with light RPG elements? I think character design, which both of them have, is at least a fringe RPG gameplay element (although obviously not exclusively, since genres from sports to racing to giant robots do it also). It's also possible to assert a little bit of personality for JC Denton in Deus Ex, at least in the early and very late going, since you are given plenty of (apparently) consequential variable-approach options with a moral or affective element, plus a sprinkle of dialogue. Those apparent consequences are usually smoke and mirrors, but at least they put on a show instead of just unapologetically omitting them as in ES games. SS2, not so much, I suppose. To me, DX at least qualifies for partial RPG status.
 

sheek

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Zomg said:
Didn't you just play through Arcanum for the first time this week, sheek?

Yeah.

So why aren't Deus Ex and SS2 RPGs, as opposed to games with light RPG elements?

Because they have little to no NPC interaction which is for me one of the core elements of an RPG. That means dialogue. Simply having lots of choices is not enough, Tetris and Minesweeper force choices on you all the time.

I you really insist you could call it a hybrid of some kind with a very lite amount of RPG added in. They're RPGs in the same way Mount&Blade currently is but less RPG than action/semi-RPGs like Morrowind, Gothic or Arx.

As for the Ultimas, sure they're RPGs and they're historically important but they bore me.
 

Zomg

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
6,984
I think dialogue is usually sufficient, but not strictly necessary. For example, here's a really simple, minimalistic RPG element: A helpless beggar asks you for something. By giving or not giving help, you are asserting the nature and affect of your character, namely, whether he's the kind of guy who gives handouts. Deus Ex even made that a consequential decision, since helping a beggar out in one or two of the missions gets some minor information from them. If you layer together enough of those kind of interactions you can define a character pretty well. That's why I qualified choices with, "with a moral or affective element."

Darklands does the same thing without any real dialogue or character individuality, although in that game only one alignment (Inquisitor-Saint) is really a good idea from a gameplay point of view.
 

LlamaGod

Cipher
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
3,095
Location
Yes
As for the Ultimas, sure they're RPGs and they're historically important but they bore me.

Hi, you fucking suck.

Ultima 4-6 are great RPGs that havent been topped yet. They arn't praised just because they are 'historically important', they're praised because they are fucking good and unique.

Not even Fallout managed to have a cooler plot than 4 or 6.
 

Pegultagol

Erudite
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
1,183
Location
General Gaming
Is there any way to play Ultima series games on a computer with WinXP?

BTW, that is a nice list of RPGs. I believe they are all good RPGs by their different aspects. I absolutely agree with Fallout and Arcanum being included there, and I can recall Deus Ex being one of the lengthy RPGs (for me at least, I take more time than usual in FPS games) with great immersiveness.

It will be nicer if the list was compiled into different categories in terms of the review criteria just mentioned. I wonder what RPG was selected on the list particularly on the merit of its plot?
 

LlamaGod

Cipher
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
3,095
Location
Yes
Is there any way to play Ultima series games on a computer with WinXP?

5 and 6 with DOSBox, and download the Sega Master System ROM version of Ultima 4 and play it on an SMS emulator
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
My dick... err... list is all that matters so fuck you all.
 

aboyd

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
Messages
843
Location
USA
LlamaGod said:
As for the Ultimas, sure they're RPGs and they're historically important but they bore me.

Hi, you fucking suck.
I grow weary of you attacking anyone who doesn't think like you do. You behave like a spoiled boy. Is this the only outlet you have to assert yourself?

-T
 

Jora

Arcane
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Messages
1,115
Location
Finland
Pegultagol said:
Is there any way to play Ultima series games on a computer with WinXP?
You could buy Dungeon Siege and download Ultima: Lazarus which is a remake of U5 that uses the Dungeon Siege engine.
 

Dogsoup

Scholar
Joined
Mar 31, 2006
Messages
106
Wasteland, Ultima IV and Dragon Wars didn't make it. They were astounding. But then, if Fallout had been issued in the eighties, even with graphic standards from the era, I guess it would have blown all concurrence to smithereens.
Fucking nostalgia twists everything. Me head hurts. The best movie ever is Bambi. I like the rabbit, he's cool.
 

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