Top 10 role-playing games

[Delirious Nomad]

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody has them, all stink.

 

[Limorkil]

1. Fallout
2. Planescape: Torment
3. Fallout 2
4. Arcanum
5. Baldur’s Gate 2: Shadows of Amn
6. Deus Ex
7. Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines
8. Ultima 7: The Black Gate // Baldur’s Gate
9. System Shock 2 // Gothic 2
10. Elder Scrolls 2: Daggerfall</blockquote>

Very interesting. I have played almost nothing except RPGs since 1984, yet your top ten features only 5 games that I have played and only 1 that I have completed. I really want to play Fallout and PS:T, but I have had no luck obtaining them. Admittedly I could try harder.

The only comments I can make on your top 10 are:

- I find BG2 very over-rated. It is fun, and I have a game going that I eventually intend to complete, but I really prefer the first BG. Although not exactly original, the main quest in the first one makes sense from the point of view of wandering around doing side quests and levelling up. In BG2 the whole "Your friend Imoen has been kidnapped, so off you go wandering the countryside fighting dragons for no real reason" irked me and then beyond that chapter it really just becomes a dungeon crawl. I mean, it is better than many games but people seem to think it is better than it really is.

- Daggerfall is one of those games that people hark back to, yet when played it is not really all that interesting. It is on my "to be completed" list but every time I load up my saved game I do one dungeon quest and get very bored.

- Ultima 7 would be top of the list for me, although I expect it might appear dated if I played it now. I never finished it because, at the time - and I mean when it first came out - my game crashed at a certain point and I could never get beyond it. That is another one I need to go find a copy of because I lost my disks a long time ago.

I hate trying to rate stuff myself. There are actually very few games that I have finished because I lose interest in most of them. Most of them I aim to finish just because I feel I ought to. I mean, for example, I am currently playing through the NWN OC even though I absolutely hate it, simply because I want to see how bad it can actually get by the end.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Very interesting. I have played almost nothing except RPGs since 1984, yet your top ten features only 5 games that I have played and only 1 that I have completed.

It's not *my* list, it's the result of the collective ... wisdom, which explains why Deus Ex, BG, and Bloodlines are on the list. Well, it could have been worse, as many people voted for Morrowind, KOTOR, and IWD.

Anyway, my top 10 list is:

Fallout
Darklands
Daggerfall
Arcanum
Prelude to Darkness
Ultima 7
Ultima Underworld
Planescape: Torment
Realms of Arkania: Star Trail
System Shock 2

I really want to play Fallout and PS:T, but I have had no luck obtaining them. Admittedly I could try harder.

I strongly recommend that (trying harder). I doubt you'll get a chance to play a better game any time soon.

I find BG2 very over-rated.

Agree. It's a very decent adventure game, but hardly a top 10 *rpg*.

Daggerfall is one of those games that people hark back to, yet when played it is not really all that interesting. It is on my "to be completed" list but every time I load up my saved game I do one dungeon quest and get very bored.

It's a different kind of game, much like Nethack is, that couldn't be compared to games like Fallout or even Torment in an apple-to-apple manner. The game was revolutionary when it was released and offered way more than MW & OB combined.

 

[LlamaGod]

Fucking nostalgia twists everything. Me head hurts.

Try actually playing Ultima 4.

Also: I never played Ultima 4 until last year. That's some pretty badass nostalgia influencing me right there.

I grow weary of you attacking anyone who doesn't think like you do. You behave like a spoiled boy. Is this the only outlet you have to assert yourself?

He dismissed one of the best RPGs just because it's boring to him. If he actually tried playing it, he'd figure out awesome it is.

Nobody can call themselves an RPG gamer until they've become the Avatar.

 

[elander_]

He dismissed one of the best RPGs just because it's boring to him. If he actually tried playing it, he'd figure out awesome it is.

Or maybe not. Not everyone enjoys the same games for the same reasons. And when they start playing that old game they may already played another more recent game that had all the fun of the older game and more.

Nobody can call themselves an RPG gamer until they've become the Avatar.

I supose that one of the reasons Ultima 7 is not so much talked about is because there are other games that provide the type of fun you find in Ultima 7 and expand on it. See Fallout for example. All the strong points of character interaction that are in Ultima 7 are in Fallout and much better done. Plus Fallout offers hardcore role-plaing and a great character and chargen system which hasn't been matched yet in user distributed xp systems. So it makes sense to talk more about Fallout than Ultima 7.

 

[Old Scratch]

Nobody can call themselves an RPG gamer until they've become the Avatar.

Was Ultima 7 the quest to become the avatar? Where you had to learn humility from the beggar and all that stuff? I just realized that was one of the ones I had played on the NES and greatly enjoyed it. It was definitely a good game for its time.

 

[Zomg]

The NES Ultimas are stripped down versions of III (Exodus) and IV (Quest of the Avatar, the one you're talking about). I think that from Ultima IV up you're actually playing the story of a single guy, the Avatar, which is what Llama means.

 

[bryce777]

He dismissed one of the best RPGs just because it's boring to him. If he actually tried playing it, he'd figure out awesome it is.

Or maybe not. Not everyone enjoys the same games for the same reasons. And when they start playing that old game they may already played another more recent game that had all the fun of the older game and more.

Nobody can call themselves an RPG gamer until they've become the Avatar.

I supose that one of the reasons Ultima 7 is not so much talked about is because there are other games that provide the type of fun you find in Ultima 7 and expand on it. See Fallout for example. All the strong points of character interaction that are in Ultima 7 are in Fallout and much better done. Plus Fallout offers hardcore role-plaing and a great character and chargen system which hasn't been matched yet in user distributed xp systems. So it makes sense to talk more about Fallout than Ultima 7.

I don't thinkt hey are very similar games at all. Ultima 7 is a huge world where youc an get lost for weeks. Fallout has more dialog paths and victory paths but there is much less to explore and do.

 

[LlamaGod]

Ultima 4 you start off as just an adventurer from our world (its suppost to be you yourself, each Ultima game is like a 'portal' into Britannia, each later game being a different time point, with 4 being your first entry (1-3 where in a different world, sort of)).

In it, British is giving a task to all adventurers to become the Avatar. In 4 you try that task and eventually succeed and become the Avatar, you come back to the world with the other games as the Avatar and with your previous history with you.

People who start with Ultima 7 need to be kicked in the nads. You cannot fully enjoy Ultima 7 without playing the ones before it.

 

[Old Scratch]

The NES Ultimas are stripped down versions of III (Exodus) and IV (Quest of the Avatar, the one you're talking about). I think that from Ultima IV up you're actually playing the story of a single guy, the Avatar, which is what Llama means.

Played both of the NES versions of those. Any idea how they were stripped down?

Ultima 4 you start off as just an adventurer from our world (its suppost to be you yourself, each Ultima game is like a 'portal' into Britannia, each later game being a different time point, with 4 being your first entry (1-3 where in a different world, sort of)).

In it, British is giving a task to all adventurers to become the Avatar. In 4 you try that task and eventually succeed and become the Avatar, you come back to the world with the other games as the Avatar and with your previous history with you.

People who start with Ultima 7 need to be kicked in the nads. You cannot fully enjoy Ultima 7 without playing the ones before it.

Ok, that jogs my memory. IV is the one I was referring to then. I also played VII(The Black Gate?) on the SNES though and remember it as being exceptional, especially the dialogue, but the combat got old real fast. Apparently it was a grotesquely stream-lined port for anyone who had played the original PC version though:

http://www.mobygames.com/game/snes/ultima-vii-the-black-gate/reviews/reviewerId,6226/

I don't know how they did it; but they did it. "Ultima VII" is no more. Instead of an engrossing, immersive adventure-RPG we have here a kiddie hack-and-slash game. They threw out everything. The dialogues are so simplified you can't recognize them any more. The NPCs are mumbling drones who stand there just to give you information. There is no Britannia any more: instead of wonderfully crafted, living locations you have generic towns that look all the same. Ninety percent of the game world was removed: you wander around through empty screens and tiny towns with two-three buildings each. Where is the fantastic interactivity of the original? You can't interact with anything, except clicking on something and taking or consuming it. The houses are disastrously hollow and lifeless, as are the characters. You don't have a party, you have to wander around alone, slashing enemies by repeatedly clicking on them. You can't decide anything in the game: you travel from town to town, periodically buying or finding weapons and armor, doing only what you are supposed to do. The story, told the way it was told in this port, is boring and unoriginal. Where is the magnificent style of the original, its unique language, its humor, its unforgettable characters, Britannia with its history, tradition, culture?! How could they throw it all out of the window? What was the point of making this port?!

Damn, I got the watered-down Ultima experience yet it still seemed good. I think that guy was over-doing it though, as I recall several of those elements he claims weren't present in the console version.

 

[LlamaGod]

Played both of the NES versions of those. Any idea how they were stripped down?

They turned them into Final Fantasy-esque 'go find this 1 thing' linear games.

In PC/SMS U4, you have a bunch of things you gota do to become Avatar and you do it completely how you want. You just have to reach your goals.

They throw you into the world and say 'get movin' and you can go about your goals ANY way.

 

[Oarfish]

• 
  
  Fallout
  Ultima7
  Fallout 2
  Ultima Underworld 2, portal was a cheap trick, but I liked it
  Ultima Underworld
  Planescape: Torment
  System Shock 2
  Baldurs Gate
  Gothic 2
  Arcanum - hated, hated the combat
  

It's far too hard to find 10, without sequels. Or including final fantasy 7.

 

[Twinfalls]

You behave like a spoiled boy. Is this the only outlet you have to assert yourself?

If he actually tried playing it, he'd figure out awesome it is.

LlamaBoy = this forum's Frankie

 

[Hazelnut]

You behave like a spoiled boy. Is this the only outlet you have to assert yourself?

If he actually tried playing it, he'd figure out awesome it is.

LlamaBoy = this forum's Frankie

Ouch, that's fucking harsh! :twisted:

Keep your language clean now Twinnie, fuckwit/fucktard/dipshit etc etc are okay, but I think we all have to agree that you stepped over the mark with this kinda language.

 

[sheek]

OK I'll try Ultima V: Lazarus if I can find a torrent of DS2.

 

[Jora]

OK I'll try Ultima V: Lazarus if I can find a torrent of DS2.

Not DS2, you need the first one (the expansion pack too, IIRC). Lazarus took years to make.

 

[FrancoTAU]

You only need DS1 fully patched OR DS1+Expansion to run Lazarus.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

How can anyone not like Ultima?

 

[Volourn]

Easy. Pay attention to one of the Codex's prime mottos.

P.S. I like the Ultima series, personally. They're one of the few 'old school RPGs' thata re *actually* rpgs.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

So why aren't Deus Ex and SS2 RPGs, as opposed to games with light RPG elements?

Because they have little to no NPC interaction which is for me one of the core elements of an RPG. That means dialogue. Simply having lots of choices is not enough, Tetris and Minesweeper force choices on you all the time.

Doesn't SS2 succeed as a RPG despite the total lack of NPC interaction? I think it makes great use of the 'Drums in the Deep' type of story device (which has been attempted in a lot of games and never pulled off as well as SS2). It does after all take place on a post-catastrophic deserted ship so by design there are no NPCs.

 

[Dogsoup]

Try actually playing Ultima 4.

Also: I never played Ultima 4 until last year. That's some pretty badass nostalgia influencing me right there.

I played and finished Ultima IV when it came out on C64. That was my first real introduction to CRPGs. I then completed Ultima II, III & V and they were all great (IV being my favourite).
A few years later I got VII with all expansions and didn't get into it. I did buy all the other Ultimas at the same time. I only got into Underworld and to a certain extent Ultima IX (yeah I know, it has nothing to do with Ultima but strangely, I found it a rather enjoyable action-adventure game).

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

'Drums in the Deep'

What?

 

[aboyd]

Isn't "drums in the deep" supposed to imply that scary looming potential interaction that may or may not materialize? It's the sort of "interacting with the environment" rather than "interacting with the NPCs" thing.

I could be wrong.

-Tony

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

You probably articulated it better than I did. Worst case, it's a gimicky facade to throw onto what is a FPS at it's core. But personally I've always been impressed with the heights that Looking Glass could take the FPSs to. I think it gives it enough depth for SS2 to warrant a place on this list (that and a very tight character system) despite the fact that there is virtually no NPC interaction.

And not to ascribe this all to Drums in the Deep, it's just the oldest example I can think of. I think there's even more parallels - wading through the aftermath of a catastrophe, peicing together the details of what happened through the words of the deceased, leading up to the discovery of and confrontation with the cause of the catastrophe.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

And not to ascribe this all to Drums in the Deep, it's just the oldest example I can think of. I think there's even more parallels - wading through the aftermath of a catastrophe, peicing together the details of what happened through the words of the deceased, leading up to the discovery of and confrontation with the cause of the catastrophe.

If you told me how old I could figure out what year and then maybe guess what the hell you're talking about!