Game News Torment Kickstarter Update #8: George Ziets Video, Pat Rothfuss Stretch Goal, and much more

[Balor]

Yea, when it comes to great, complex and utterly believable characters - Martin (and Abercrombie) are the best in contemporary fantasy.
Kvothe is actually quite believable. And not entirely cardboard, not at all. But damn, he's so annoying sometimes.

 

[Balor]

By the way, talking about REALLY good books, Red Country is perhaps the best of Abercrombie. Dark, cynical, ultra violent as usual - but surprisingly uplifting as well, which is a real surprise because of his 'Dark Gray vs a bit Darker Gray' morality framework.

 

[Vault Dweller]

http://cboye.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/kvothe-a-mary-sue-case-study/

^ An excellent summary of the main character (courtesy of Gareth).

 

[hiver]

Bunch of crap.

he makes serious and blatant mistakes in his logic right at the start:

The Narcissist

Kvothe loves to talk about himself. I won’t repeat the quote from last time, but here’s some more:

“Very well, for simplicity’s sake, let us assume I am the center of creation. In doing this, let us pass over innumerable boring stories: the rise and fall of empires, sagas of heroism, ballads of tragic love. Let us hurry forward to the only tale of any real importance.” His smile broadened. ”Mine.” (53)​

Wtf? Thats sarcasm for fuck sake. Self centered sarcasm, even disdain.

Simplicity’s sake, my [body part of your choice]. He really does think he’s the center of creation.

No shit?

Look at his attitude towards Chronicler when the latter suggests coming back in a few days to hear the story:

Kote gave Chronicler a look of profound disdain. ”What gives you the slightest impression that I would be here when you came back?” he asked incredulously. ”For that matter, what makes you think you’re free to simply walk out of here, knowing what you know?”​

Chronicler went very still. ”Are–” He swallowed and started again. ”Are you saying that–”​

“The story will take three days,” Kote interrupted. “Starting tomorrow. That is what I am saying.” (48)​

Note the death threat; we’ll see it again.

There are very good reasons for the death threat there.
And there is no reason for Kvothe, being who he is and considering what effects he had, what role he played in the big world concerns and matters, - to treat some random stranger in any other way.

What was he supposed to do? kiss the guys ass?

W.T.F ?

Kvothe believes he’s so important that anyone in the universe would do anything he says in order to hear him talk about how great he is–and, unfortunately, the narrative agrees, since Chronicler meekly transcribes statements like this:

I was brilliant. Not just your run-of-the-mill brilliance either. I was extraordinarily brilliant. (335)​

Thats a bitter cold assessment of ones own HUBRIS, FOR FUCK SAKE.​

Nor is his hyperbolic self-praise limited to him telling his story. He talks to everyone this way:

“In that case, Master Kilvin, I am better. I learn faster. I work harder. My hands are more nimble. My mind is more curious. However, I also expect you know this for yourself without my telling you.” (434)​

Hubris. YES.


Which is the point of the whole Kvothe story.

Fred Clark of Slacktivist wrote a perfect response in a different context:
From a purely technical point of view, this appears to be a simple mechanical problem and something that might be easily fixed. We could posit a simple rule — something like, “Don’t have characters praise themselves exuberantly

It depends on the fucking context.


- ive read the rest of it, - same completely wrong logic, based on completely wrong personal interpretations of all key points.

BESIDES - Kvothe is "only human" after all, so he is very much allowed to exhibit stupidity, arrogance, wrong assumptions, and other character flaws - especially if thats the whole point of the whole f`ing story.

THAT makes him human and relatable - instead of some wankery of authors contrived "intellect".
He is even allowed to behave as "mary sue" - if that serves a purpose.

 

[Kosmonaut]

Please leave my favorite writer/character alone!

 

[Vault Dweller]

BESIDES - Kvothe is "only human" after all, so he is very much allowed to exhibit stupidity, arrogance, wrong assumptions, and other character flaws - especially if thats the whole point of the whole f`ing story.

Stupidity, arrogance, and such should fit the character, not be slapped on to balance his amazing awesomeness.

If you remove the rose-colored glasses and look at the actual character, you'll realize that he has the depth of a cardboard cutout, thoroughly infused with the power of awesome. Every setback, every failure is a leap forward. Even when Kvothe fails, he still wins. Failing and losing is for losers and Kvothe is no loser. If Kvothe fails at something it's because he didn't try to succeed. If someone doesn't like Kvothe, it's because they suck. Everyone else falls in love with him and instantly realizes how awesome Kvothe is. Because he is.

He's a fucking joke. Like Jack Bauer jokes.

 

[Jasede]

$4,000,000 stretch goal: Rothfuss will not work on T:ToN. (Titty-on?)

 

[hiver]

BESIDES - Kvothe is "only human" after all, so he is very much allowed to exhibit stupidity, arrogance, wrong assumptions, and other character flaws - especially if thats the whole point of the whole f`ing story.

Stupidity, arrogance, and such should fit the character, not be slapped on to balance his amazing awesomeness.

If you remove the rose-colored glasses and look at the actual character, you'll realize that he has the depth of a cardboard cutout, thoroughly infused with the power of awesome. Every setback, every failure is a leap forward. Even when Kvothe fails, he still wins. Failing and losing is for losers and Kvothe is no loser. If Kvothe fails at something it's because he didn't try to succeed. If someone doesn't like Kvothe, it's because they suck. Everyone else falls in love with him and instantly realizes how awesome Kvothe is. Because he is.

He's a fucking joke. Like Jack Bauer jokes.

oh really? now my actual arguments are not real because i have "rose tinted glasses"?
Is that the scope of your or gareth logic?
Despite all i have said about Kvothe and the first book and not even reading the second one because of those overblown tropes?

Garteh is simply wrong, his basic assumptions are wrong, shallow, superficial - he fails to see even the very basic setup of the plot and premises he makes are contradictory to what the story is about.
I dont need any rose tinted glasses for that.
Its simple.
Is it not true that Kvothe is at present a fucked up man? Is it not true that he is completely removed himself from the world? Hugely depressed, bitter, angry - mostly at himself and some heavily hinted huge failure, very probably including the loss of personal nature?
Is it not true - literally true that the whole premise is that he just royally fucked up and lost a lot because of it?

The real problem lies in the fact that we dont know, that we havent seen what this failure and loss is.
In the two books we only see his beginnings whose description shifts from older bitter Kvothe to the younger one, full of idealism and actual rose tinted glasses.

Yes he is way too talented and capable, but it sticks out like a sore thumb because we dont know the rest of the story.
And yes the particular specific events can be criticized because of their specific execution.
And yes we can criticize the plot we have available.

That doesnt make the whole plot and premise into what it looks like now.

Ill have to read the second one now, but... that scene with the sex goddess? How the hell do we know Kvothe wasnt simply played for a fool there?
How the hell would he know if a goddess is lying to him and leading him to believe whatever the hell she likes?
Isnt the fact that he can drive other women wild with his "sexual proves" suspicious at all? Could it not be an effect of goddesses magic he doesnt notice?

Not that im claiming it is so, but i wouldnt be surprised by that at all. If it turns out to be the real truth.

It can turn out that the opposite is true - but to assume that means we have to assume Patrick is an enormousness dumbass.
And i dont detect a trace of it in anything ive seen about or read from him.

 

[~RAGING BONER~]

FFS since this game is gonna be "modular in design" you guys just need to find out what modules and characters are written by what authors and hate on that part of the game accordingly.

I suppose only then will we find the answer to the question: "what does one author matter?"

 

[Kirtai]

I suppose only then will we find the answer to the question: "what does one author matter?"

Behind every great author is an unappreciated editor.

Speaking of the editor, any information on him? Ray Vallese I think it was.

 

[hiver]

While many, including me, may object to specifics of that particular story - there is no denying thats a very talented writer with a unique and rare style and ability.

Seeing that ability in a Torment setting of Numenera, should bring excellent results that will be very different then his Kvothe books.
Different setting, different NPC characters, different themes.

 

[SCO]

http://cboye.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/kvothe-a-mary-sue-case-study/

^ An excellent summary of the main character (courtesy of Gareth).

Another, more snarky and 'librul' one (heavy spoilers - this is a great review site btw, reading their other book reviews/retrospectives is recommended).
http://www.pornokitsch.com/2011/06/new-releases-the-wise-mans-fear-by-patrick-rothfuss.html

Oh, and i'm not one to complain about long books, but for a 'unappreciated editor' that guy sure did a disservice to the readers by not expunging with prejudice long pointless digressions from the final bricks. Don't get me wrong; there are good parts of even the second book, right after or during the felurian chapter (spoiler: it's a eldritch abomination sentient tree), but these are looong books.

 

[OSK]

Reading is dumb.