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Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

Discussion in 'inXile Entertainment' started by Florian Gheorghe, Feb 28, 2017.

  1. MRY Prestigious Gentleman Wormwood Studios Developer

    MRY
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    Who is hating Planescape?

    I have long loved Beavis & Butt-Head Do America. Stupid isn't always bad. This whole thread began by noting that the problem with Numenera (and TTON) was the lack of the goofy/stupid quality of Planescape, and its replacement with overwrought seriousness.
     
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  2. Mr. Hiver Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

    Mr. Hiver
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    Thats even worse then i thought.
    Until now i considered it a giant failure because of trying to force every thing and everything and EVERYTHING (and magic and science and sci fi and fanatasy and - ad infinitum) into its content which only results in incoherent mess, but insisting nothing can be connected to well known terms, concepts and ideas is actually intentionally insisting on everything being incoherent and divested from anything familiar and logically connected.

    Its the dumb paradox of postmodernism, if nothing is considered a base foundation that is true, then nothing - including that very idea is true.


    Its not the stupid that was the glue that held it all together but concepts that were specific and known, recognizable and already established as specific ideas.

    Besides, the quality of PST came from not blindly adhering to the setting but instead abusing it and subverting it for its own purposes - to talk about even more fundamental and basically true issues and questions.
    PST story was an archetypal myth of Joseph Campbell and Tolkien kind - in its own original form and twist - and that resonates with every human.
    It did its own thing with a lot of tongue in cheek aimed at the whole DnD and Planescape setting base stupidity.
    Brothel of intellectual lusts being just one more obvious example.

    The fact we never even saw Mount Celestia and the case of the fallen Deva seem to point out how stupid that part of the setting was. As well as basing the game inside Sigil - where Gods cannot enter.
    It was something to rebel against.

    And its gameplay was constructed in a way that supports that archetypal hero myth foundation - by making the player work for it.
    On top of that it provided additional considerations about higher concepts as questions about belief and human - one own nature. But those were based on the foundations they arose of and connected back to them.
    In other words it had woven a meaningful interconnected structure.

    In which some silliness - which was also based around familiar and real concepts - was welcome.
    It wasnt dour and oppressing. If anything it figured out how to occasionally use comedy to talk about more serious issues - which is art in itself.
     
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  3. Efe Learned

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    MRY would you put this game on your resume?
     
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  4. MRY Prestigious Gentleman Wormwood Studios Developer

    MRY
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    Of course. That said, I don't have a resume with game names on it -- my real job is as a lawyer, and I don't apply for game jobs any more; I just work on my own and help folks out when they ask. But I do have the box reasonably prominently displayed in my office at work, behind a statue a fan made of Horatio Nullbuilt and my signed box of Kohan II.

    Frankly, of games I worked on, it is much more prestigious than Kohan II: Kings of War, Heroes of Newerth, etc. I'm proud of my work on TTON, and, while I can't judge the game for a variety of reasons (even if I had played it, I'd be too biased), I'm proud of having worked alongside Kevin, Colin, George, and the rest of the gang. I think they all are passionate about making great RPGs, poured a lot of effort into the game, etc. Also, ultimately, this is a game where many people have had favorable reactions to it (to judge from Steam reviews). I take an additive view of these things -- for all people may have been disappointed with TTON, I don't think it made their lives worse,[*] and for those who liked it, I think it made their lives better. TO the extent I've criticized the game, it's only because I found aspects frustrating/challenging for myself and because I'm trying to understand how a game with so much effort by such great people behind it could disappoint a lot of players.

    Ultimately, I can't imagine it's the best RPG that Kevin and George have made (given that they made MOTB, one of my all-time favorites) or the best that Colin and Chris made (given that they made PS:T, my absolute favorite), but it could well be the best RPG I ever do significant writing on. Who knows how bad Fallen Gods will be (if it even qualifies as an RPG), and I doubt I'll do another RPG after that one. If anything, they should be embarrassed about being associated with me, not vice versa.

    [EDIT: * Let me caveat that, actually. Some people gave quite a bit of money to fund the game's development on Kickstarter. To the extent they didn't get what they wanted/expected, their lives probably were made worse. One reason I don't like Kickstarter from the developer side -- I've done a lot of backing from the consumer side -- is that it creates moral dangers like that. I don't really know enough who would be "to blame," as it were, for such disappointment, but on some level everyone is. Just as I try to apologize to everyone who buys Primordia and doesn't like it, I would apologize for whatever responsibility I had on TTON for those who backed it and didn't get what they wanted.]
     
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  5. zapotec Learned

    zapotec
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    ohhh i understand what you mean now and i agree too, thank you!

    In fact i think Planescape can reminds of Rift where there are vampires, along with aliens, japanese style mega robot, horsemen of the apocalypse, atlantis and so on
     
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  6. Mr. Hiver Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

    Mr. Hiver
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    Speaking of people who were hurt, anyone knows what happened with Monty after that thread and those events?

    Did he managed to get better after all?
     
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  7. StaticSpine Arcane Patron

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  8. Strange Fellow Magister Patron

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    I don't have any strong opinions on this debate, but it's very clear to me that a setting with Hollyphants is superior to a setting without them. Maybe that's where Numenera went wrong.
     
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  9. Bohr Arcane

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    Monty's fine, he just usually posts with his mfkndggrfll account these days
     
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  10. Kalin Arcane Zionist Agent

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    And there it is:

    :lol:
     
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  11. Sacred82 Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

    Sacred82
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    lolwut

    the Numanuma setting is way more retarded and goofy than Planescape ever was.

    1 gazillion trillion boobillion years into the future… mankind no longer treads on dirt… but on drit

    Numanuma's sloppy writing can only ever get a pass because of how silly the setting is to begin with.
     
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  12. Luckmann Arcane Zionist Agent

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    That's a very small part of everything, though. I wouldn't call it the problem. But it's certainly there.
    No. Planescape is a setting which has depth and a serious nature, but it does not take itself seriously. Numenera, on the other hand, is a completely retarded setting with no consistency whatsoever, but that still insists on taking itself seriously.
     
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  13. Sacred82 Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

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    Do retards taking themselves seriously seem retarded and goofy?

    :philosoraptor:

    My point was that the ridiculous timeframe/ chronologies in Numanuma, among other things, make it way more fucked up than "some place between the Planes". You add the numenera to that and the whole thing is so over the top silly it never actually occured to me it could be taking itself very seriously.
     
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  14. Ulukai Literate

    Ulukai
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    I loved the Lore and the writing of Tides Of Numenera despite its objective flaws. I wonder where the creators borrowed the Bloom concept


    This reminded me of a Heinlein novel where a spaceship drifts endlessly or the Italian comics Druuna where the biomechanical architecture of spaceship endowed with a conscience is constantly changing.


    Is this giant creature that crosses dimensions is originally from the books of Monte Cook?

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  15. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Rare question on George Ziets Tumblr:

     
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  16. SausageInYourFace Codexian Sausage Patron

    SausageInYourFace
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    Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    "Disconnect between remote leads and onsite team. (...) I think things would have worked better if the leads - esp. the primary visionaries - were onsite with the team."

    Pretty much what Monty also said.
     
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  17. Mikeal Savant

    Mikeal
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    After all this years I still don't know one thing. Why George Ziets looks like Basshunter?
     
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  18. Bohr Arcane

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    A bit of a lulzy twosome, just hope it doesn't hurt Goat Simulator's prospects
     
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  19. MRY Prestigious Gentleman Wormwood Studios Developer

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    Goat and GOAT, obviously.
     
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  20. Blaine Cis-Het Oppressor Patron

    Blaine
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    What about Torment, though?
     
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  21. vortex Fabulous Optimist

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    MRY if Larian gets the licence for Planescape 2, would you consider to join as writer?
     
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  22. MRY Prestigious Gentleman Wormwood Studios Developer

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    No.
     
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  23. agris Arcane Patron

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    Smart man.
     
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  24. hexer Arcane

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    Planescape inspires you to make Primordia, but you wouldn't want to write for an actual Planescape game...

    :|
     
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  25. MRY Prestigious Gentleman Wormwood Studios Developer

    MRY
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    (1) Planescape: Torment was a major inspiration for Primordia. The Planescape setting was not.
    (2) On TTON, the team I joined included all of the PS:T writers (albeit with Avellone in a very reduced role, it turned out) and the lead designer and creative lead from MOTB. To sit alongside them (albeit only a couple of times, since almost all of my work was remote) was a great privilege and learning experience. But the consensus is that TTON is not PS:T or MOTB. Why would I expect the result with Larian to be closer to PS:T?
    (3) As I've said many times before, I don't want to repeat the experience of pouring all of my writing time into a project for 14 months only to have my contribution to the game be an effectively irrelevant/invisible <5% of its writing. Nor do I want to work as an implementer of other people's themes and concepts. For me to overcome those aversions would require something really special. For instance, if Paul and Fred asked me to work on their Star Control game (never gonna happen), I would have a hard time saying no, both because that kind of game is still on my bucket list and because I owe so many happy childhood moments to them. If Moriarty asked me to work on a Loom sequel, or if I had the chance to work on a Sacrifice or Legacy of Kain game, that might also be appealing. But the Torment / branching-dialogue-RPG itch has been scratched.
    (4) I need to spend what game-writing time I have on Fallen Gods and Strangeland. (The money is now entirely irrelevant. My total pay for 14 months on TTON comes out to something like three days' salary at my current job. But the same job that gives me more money takes more of my time; so even as time is scarcer and more valuable, compensation is abundant and less valuable.)
    (5) If I had enough game-writing time that I could work on the project without it cutting into other things, I would instead use that time providing additional help to VD on CSG.
     
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