Total War: Three Kingdoms - the next major historical Total War title set in ancient China

[Lone Wolf]

The series is about the Romance, which is definitely fantastical. The game has two modes: Romance (same as the series) and historical, which is based on the actual historiographical records of the period, from an 8th century writer. Though, it's highly likely that much of the historical record is embellished, also. Within the scope of the game the big difference between the two modes is whether the characters act as Warhammer style heroes (powerful, able to take on entire units by themselves) or as single entities in a general-style unit from earlier Total Wars.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I know, I was following the news from the beginning when I had some hope it would be somewhat historical.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Well, you're right, 'historical' is a stretch.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Chen Gongtai was a great character in the 2010 series. Honourable, straight talking and morally courageous. In this clip, he is brought before Cao Cao, with whom he became a rebel against Dong Zhuo's regime. However, soon after they began travelling together, Cao Cao thought he was being ambushed at his uncle's villa, and killed his uncle's entire household there, by mistake. Upon learning the truth, he and Gongtai ran, only to encounter Lu Boshe, Cao's uncle, on the road. Cao Cao killed him to cover up the earlier crime. Chen Gongtai was aghast, but couldn't bring himself to kill Cao in his sleep.

Instead, he left and eventually partnered up with the legendary warrior Lu Bu. Years later, they're brought to heel by Cao Cao, and the scene in the clip ensues. The dynamic is interesting. Gongtai knows he will die, but Cao is genuinely affected by the situation; he always considered Gongtai a friend, despite their falling out. He offers him several 'outs', so that Gongtai may live, but all are rebuffed. He then takes Gongtai (not seen in the clip) to a place familiar to both of them and ends his life as mercifully as he can.

 

[LESS T_T]

Join us as we delve into the heart of Total War: THREE KINGDOMS, the expansive characters system.
See how legendary heroes earn their title, equip themselves for battle and interact with eachother throughout ancient China in the most rich and complex Total War title to date.

 

[tabacila]

Apparently an embargo has ended and 'influencers' got to post some gameplay. This reddit thread has it all combined.
Campaign features look kinda cool, but I guess that's needed since the battles look dull and popamole as fuck (although they mention the build they had was unbalanced for 'fun'). I'm not well versed at all in the romance, but I'm guessing there weren't that many female characters that were actual warriors/generals and this is just more inclusiveness crap from CA, right? They just had to make all hero types be available to all genders. Could have just made the women be better at scheming and shit.

Also love how much care they took with the animations and combat:

 

[Raghar]

He's sidestepping these spears like a champ. The only question is why are these archers rushing these spears?

 

[Tigranes]

Ed, you should watch some Three Kingdoms (2010). The whole thing's up on YTube. Great series - immersed me in the setting, big-time. I know purists prefer the early 90s version, but purists aren't always a great barometer for general enjoyment.

Speaking of that series, I'm going to try out Cao Cao first, because he's the only smart ruler in the whole saga. Liu Bei, Sun Quan, Cao Cao et al had smart advisers, but only Cao Cao was on that same intellectual level. Brutal, subtle, world-weary, cunning, intelligent and ambitious. Liked the character a lot, even if he was ultimately portrayed as a villain (as he usually is, in ROTK media).

Good scene, showing his style: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dftx28aZ46c

Arguably, Cao Cao appears to us as the only smart leader because his managerial principles are most closely aligned with modern day, rationalistic, 'see your followers as resources' paradigm. And in addition his particular talents - such as in writing and military strategical thinking - are again recognisable to us. But you don't get to rise up from dozens of warlords to the top 3 or even 5 in this kind of era without being extremely talented in your own way.

In some treatments, Liu Bei is shown to be a gullible, soft-hearted 'but Han dynasty legitimacy wahhhh' that somehow gets lucky with super-loyal and super-capable advisors. But the very fact that you could achieve unconditional loyalty from some of the most gifted generals and strategists of the era this way, tells you something about what was effective in that era. Cao Cao was no stranger to this either, and in his own way put in a lot of special praise and other relationship building with his 'big four' advisors and such. It's notable that even though Cao Cao relied heavily on his kinsmen for much of his rise to power, there are no serious signs of any of them defecting, disagreeing, or backstabbing him. There's plenty of reason to suggest that many of thsoe who followed Cao Cao saw him as a benevolent, just and loyal ruler in the way followers of Liu Bei saw their own boss, though obviously there were clear differences in cruelty and ruthlessness.

To be sure, Cao Cao was certainly the smartest of them all, and history is written by the winners, and in his lifetime he was certainly proved that his willingness to be cruel and dishonest sometimes paid off. But I think the 'traditional' popular interpretation of goody-good Liu Bei and utterly bland Sun Quan sells them short.

Also am ignoring the TW game because obiviously it will suck shit and just make me play KOEI ROTK again

 

[Lone Wolf]

But I think the 'traditional' popular interpretation of goody-good Liu Bei and utterly bland Sun Quan sells them short.

I agree. My view is based purely on the popular culture depiction of the trio, with full knowledge that any historical treatise would depict them in a different light.

 

[fantadomat]

I do prefer the older type of combat and not the modern duel type. Better to fight the air and people dying to a number damage than the clunky duel shit.

 

[Rahdulan]

To be sure, Cao Cao was certainly the smartest of them all, and history is written by the winners, and in his lifetime he was certainly proved that his willingness to be cruel and dishonest sometimes paid off. But I think the 'traditional' popular interpretation of goody-good Liu Bei and utterly bland Sun Quan sells them short.

I think their portrayal is one of those eternally debated points that has to be observed as filtered through Han propaganda and nostalgia, not to mention other regime changes and favoritism. Didn't it take until relatively recently, as in decades, for historians to give Cao Cao a fair shake?

 

[Lone Wolf]

There's a trickle of YTube campaign let's plays coming through, now. A 25 min official one, as well as campaign gameplay from number of popular TW YTubers.

Official TW Video



Party Elite



Invictus



milkandcookiestw

 

[Tigranes]

To be sure, Cao Cao was certainly the smartest of them all, and history is written by the winners, and in his lifetime he was certainly proved that his willingness to be cruel and dishonest sometimes paid off. But I think the 'traditional' popular interpretation of goody-good Liu Bei and utterly bland Sun Quan sells them short.

I think their portrayal is one of those eternally debated points that has to be observed as filtered through Han propaganda and nostalgia, not to mention other regime changes and favoritism. Didn't it take until relatively recently, as in decades, for historians to give Cao Cao a fair shake?

Yes. At least beyond some specialist scholars, Luo Guanzhong's version was so dominant that it coloured everything. It's telling that some of the most amazing and memorable stories were most likely invented ones that made their way into Guanzhong, like Zhuge Liang's tactic to kill thousands of southern rebels, wearing their oiled leather armour particularly effective against arrow fire, by leading them into a valley and setting them all on fire. Whether true or not, stories emphasising Zhuge Liang's anime-level genius made it in by the dozens, while Cao Cao's brilliance is often bookended by clever betrayals and ruthless executions.

Recent decades have seen some key stories given revisionist theories or at least a range of possibilities debated. If you look at Cao Cao's famous failed southern invasion in 208 - the Red Cliffs - some argue that Cao Cao was fully aware of the dangers of chaining his boats together, and very careful about the threat of fire, taking various precautions; that the attack only succeeded because Sun Quan & Liu Bei's advisors were keenly aware of seasonal weather variations from experience (in the Romance, Zhuge Liang prays for 7 days and 'changes' the wind); and that the losses, while significant in terms of absolute numbers, was not a calamitous one for Cao Cao in terms of relative strength. It's telling that following his defeat of Yuan Shao, Cao Cao basically never faced a truly serious setback or threat to his rulership, and only continued to grow, and at worst, consolidate his position as the prominent warlord. (The exception is argubaly Ma Chao & Han Sui in the 210s, but I personally think that even if they had military success, they didn't have the political nous or logistics to sustain their push.)

 

[Lone Wolf]

It's telling that some of the most amazing and memorable stories were most likely invented ones

Well, as you know, there are still people who take the 800,000 Wei soldiers at the Red Cliffs as a serious figure.

 

[tabacila]

Recruitment is tied to characters and you can't swap units between armies or even between characters in the same army. Fire a dude and his units go away with him. This means that no matter how much of China you conquer your faction leader will lead at maximum 6 units, everything else is tied to your characters.
Also better units are unlocked by upgrading your characters, which means if a high level dude dies and you replace him with a noob you can only recruit militia.

More stellar battle performance:

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Whoah, what happens there at the end? That guy just catapults sideways from his horse and actually explodes against the wall?

 

[Fedora Master]

Sounds like CA took a risk and experimented and it failed.
e: And of course they are massively pushing the Warrior Women angle. Fuck CA.

 

[Lone Wolf]

To be fair, there are some Warrior Women in ROTK.

For example, Lady Sun and her all-female bodyguard.

 

[fantadomat]

Whoah, what happens there at the end? That guy just catapults sideways from his horse and actually explodes against the wall?

He was hit by a catapulted stone.

 

[Agame]

Recruitment is tied to characters and you can't swap units between armies or even between characters in the same army. Fire a dude and his units go away with him. This means that no matter how much of China you conquer your faction leader will lead at maximum 6 units, everything else is tied to your characters.
Also better units are unlocked by upgrading your characters, which means if a high level dude dies and you replace him with a noob you can only recruit militia.

This sounds completely retarded. Its taken them years to figure out locking units into armies was necessary to stop the AI dribbling their units all over the map. But this is pushing that system way over the top.

The old one step forward two steps back I guess...

 

[A horse of course]

Yeah this gets less and less interesting. Graphics look like absolute garbage (CA are now claiming there "wasn't enough bloom" in these pre-release builds ), the character classes come across like some unholy mashup of TW: Arena and MOBA games, no naval battles, no new mechanics in battles aside from duels, hordes of spearmanni and swordmanni with useless unit cards, janky battle AI and no waifus.

The only stuff that looks like it could shake up the game in a positive manner is the character rivalries, betrayals and spying combined with features that already existed like confederations and inheriting lands from friendly factions. But that's not enough to make me buy the game in the first place. Hopefully it works out well in 3K and is integrated into future titles. Fuck the Chinese market. Luckily Chinese players are notoriously prickly and prone to review bombing, so hopefully the ugly female character models will tank the game.

edit: MilkandCuckiesTW has done a prety fair pro/con video on what he played from the campaign video someone posted earlier:

 

[Raghar]

Is this total war arena like graphics and unit system?

 

[Rahdulan]

Of all the complaints graphics one is the least important to me. No one actually plays zoomed in like that anyway after the first hour when the wonder wears off. If anything I'm more worried about combat being even faster paced than Shogun 2's combat. So, units basically get wiped out in five seconds?

 

[Raghar]

I played Shogun 2 at release, when pause was on spacebar, and units morale was quite important. There was not wipe out in few seconds, when you didn't manage to get katana samurai into yari ashigaru back, especially when they were engaged with different unit. Cavalry charges were difficult because nearly everyone and his dog had Yari, or firearms.

They did remove these interesting chain routs, when they released Rome II.

 

[A horse of course]