Game News Tyranny Dev Diary #3: Being a Fatebinder

[Roguey]

Because it's not a standard hero's journey like ~95% of other fantasy RPGs.

 

[Irxy]

The Oldwalls are Forbidden: What are the Oldwalls, you ask? Wouldn’t you like to know…

Very informative.

I get some kafkaesque vibes from this - a law which forbids something obscure, somethings nobody even remembers. Can be used in some cool quests/events.
Of course, I'm probably overthinking it and the designer simply hid some lore spoilers with that phrase.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I love the butthurt Obsidian is producing these days just by existing.

 

[Zanzoken]

Lol @ the butthurt fanboys. What is it exactly that makes this concept such a special snowflake? Because "what if evil won" and you are supposedly a villain now?

You may be labeled as such but I doubt it will matter... your choices will inevitably boil down to being a softy and using your position to help people, or being a jerkass who strangles puppies for fun. A.k.a. the basic "good" and "evil" paths in every triple-A RPG ever.

Why?

The gameplay update they released looks like PoE-lite, a.k.a. a boring system made even more streamlined and popamole.

We already know Obsidian has no idea how to do encounter design because it was horrible in PoE.

The lore so far ranges from generic, to cringeworthy, to downright nonsensical. The usual overabundance of high fantasy fluff, the lame fanfic short story, and now these silly laws. I'm pretty sure an evil overlord only needs one law -- do what I say or I'll fuck you up. They are trying to manufacture complexity in order to compensate for the overall weakness of the concept.

The art looks really uninspired, both concept and in-game.

Because it's not a standard hero's journey like ~95% of other fantasy RPGs.

See Vault Dweller's post. There is no chance whatsoever that your avatar doesn't evolve into a demigod who can do whatever he wants by the last 1/3 of the game. I'll be shocked if the C&C amounts to anything more than different ending slides, a la New Vegas.

 

[Infinitron]

Relevant questions from our Feargus interview:

MR: Tyranny is said to be, relatively to other RPGs, short and heavy on choices. Do you think this is a direction RPGs should go? Or is it just a specific design choice fit for Tyranny?

FU: I think it's an absolutely just choice for Tyranny. So let's say I have a hundred points of resources. Right, so let's say something like Tyranny can cost two billion to make. So then I have like a hundred points of resources. So I can spend those resources to have a fair number of sort of choices, right? But then I have a much longer game.

Or I can spend those resources widely and provide all these super crazy different options, but that of course limits how long I can make the game. That's really what it is. So with Tyranny what we said is we wanna make this game where you truly have an incredible number of choices and when you choose a path in the game. And that path is very different and it feels very different and the game reacts like all over the place to that difference, more so than even our previous games. So it's realy making that choice of do we go wide with choice and short with length? Or do we go shallower with choice and longer with length.

JMR: How does Obsidian plan to organize the writing on such a choice-heavy game?

FU: So on Tyranny there are currently four full-time writers, I think. It's Paul, Megan, Matt, Robert, and then...[Go go, Duraframe!] So basically there's four full-time writers, and then there's some other people that are helping out, which actually is quite a lot for us. We usually don't have that many writers on a project all at once.

Or I should say, we usually don’t have people that are only writing. We do have a lot of writing in our games, but that's done by people that were both doing area design and writing at the same time. There's often a couple of other writers that were more full time, but not with like four full-time writers for Tyranny. That's a lot for us.

So how do we organize it? A lot of it is just separating it all out. It's giving each of the writers their own thing to be in charge of. For example, let’s take Caesar's Legion in New Vegas. For that we would want a writer to kinda do all the Caesar's Legion stuff, so that they had the voice for that. We try to have a sole writer create the content for a companion, instead of multiple writers write a companion.

When creating the C&C portion, that’s when the writers and the level designers are working in tandem. Normally, the level designers are often writing and creating the content for most of the quests. When it comes down to critical story quests, because we have specific requirements in terms of re-activity and skill checks, the writers and designers need to work out how each story point is affected by each choice in that specific quest. So in that case it’s a just a lot of coordination and planning on both ends.

I'll be shocked if the C&C amounts to anything more than different ending slides, a la New Vegas.

First of all, I think if you don't think FO:NV has pretty good C&C, your standards might already be too high. But this seems like it'll have more.

 

[resilient sphere]

JMR: Can you tell me what time it is?

FU: So basically it's 11 am, or I should say... it's a little past eleven.

 

[Flou]

Lol @ the butthurt fanboys. What is it exactly that makes this concept such a special snowflake? Because "what if evil won" and you are supposedly a villain now?

You may be labeled as such but I doubt it will matter... your choices will inevitably boil down to being a softy and using your position to help people, or being a jerkass who strangles puppies for fun. A.k.a. the basic "good" and "evil" paths in every triple-A RPG ever.

While you are in the future why don't you give us the lottery numbers for few weeks and the Codex can fund their dream projects and get some cheap whores with those winnings

 

[J_C]

and now these silly laws. I'm pretty sure an evil overlord only needs one law -- do what I say or I'll fuck you up.

This just proves that you don't get this. What you described is cartoon villans doing evil stuff. If we take a more realistic approach, an evil overlord will know that to rule a land, the land needs rules and laws.

 

[Wise Emperor]

This feels like "Russia: The Game", with Putin smirking on the cover.

It definitely sounds better than last Obsidian project.

 

[Zanzoken]

First of all, I think if you don't think FO:NV has pretty good C&C, your standards might already be too high. But this seems like it'll have more.

New Vegas wasn't bad but C&C really need to impact the gameworld in order to be meaningful. You dictate the end of the game, sure, but content on the crit path is pretty similar no matter who you side with.

 

[Zanzoken]

As for things that Feargus or Sawyer or whoever says, I will take it with a grain of salt. I have nothing against the company but we all saw what they promised on PoE versus the end result. So I don't put much stock in their words.

What I do look at is the content itself and the hard assets. And everything they have released for Tyranny so far looks like shit to me.

 

[MRY]

To me, Tyranny sounds like it would be a nice launching point for a King of Dragon Pass style game focused on community-level impact of various decisions. It is harder for me to see how it will work as an ARPG. Ultimately, the conceit of ARPGs is hard to square with a semi-serious depiction of the inner workings of an evil empire. The game's mechanics present various ideas (e.g., that killing is trivial, that enemies lack concrete identities, that macro problems can be solved with micro actions, that all losses can be undone by spamming potions) that undermine a narrative about how society copes with an evil overlord. Vault Dweller used the shorthand of a procurator running around with the spread-fire power-up, and that's certainly part of it, too -- part of the issue is the disconnect between the gameplay verbset and the narrative verbset. But I think the problem is not just that the gameplay doesn't seem to fit being a Fatebinder, it's that the gameplay doesn't seem to fit a setting premised on "a more realistic approach, an evil overlord will know that to rule a land, the land needs rules and laws."

That said, Obsidian is made up of amazing folks who have made some of my favorite games, so really I'm criticizing a mirage conjured up by incomplete information. I'd like nothing more than for it to be something amazing, and I'm sure there's a fair chance it will be.

 

[Zanzoken]

This just proves that you don't get this. What you described is cartoon villans doing evil stuff. If we take a more realistic approach, an evil overlord will know that to rule a land, the land needs rules and laws.

The necessity of laws depends on the goals and structure of power in society.

Since this is fantasy I am guessing Kyros himself is really fucking powerful -- there has been no indication that he is a Littlefinger type villain who is physically weak but gains power through cunning and manipulation. Also, the Archons are described as "beings of immense power" and they work for Kyros. I don't think the Archons would work for someone weaker than themselves -- remember, we're supposed to be evil, and they established in the released short story that soldiers will kill their leaders if they think they are weak.

So considering that by all indications Kyros has overwhelming force on his side -- and as an evil overlord shouldn't be too worried about being fair to people -- then no, it doesn't make sense that he would need a byzantine legal structure to govern his domain. He and his dudes are stronger than everyone, so what they say goes.

That is how evil people work IRL too, but they must use legal structures and deception to control people because they lack the means to do so directly.

 

[J_C]

This just proves that you don't get this. What you described is cartoon villans doing evil stuff. If we take a more realistic approach, an evil overlord will know that to rule a land, the land needs rules and laws.

The necessity of laws depends on the goals and structure of power in society.

Since this is fantasy I am guessing Kyros himself is really fucking powerful -- there has been no indication that he is a Littlefinger type villain who is physically weak but gains power through cunning and manipulation. Also, the Archons are described as "beings of immense power" and they work for Kyros. I don't think the Archons would work for someone weaker than themselves -- remember, we're supposed to be evil, and they established in the released short story that soldiers will kill their leaders if they think they are weak.

So considering that by all indications Kyros has overwhelming force on his side -- and as an evil overlord shouldn't be too worried about being fair to people -- then no, it doesn't make sense that he would need a byzantine legal structure to govern his domain. He and his dudes are stronger than everyone, so what they say goes.

That is how evil people work IRL too, but they must use legal structures and deception to control people because they lack the means to do so directly.

Disagree. It doesn't matter how powerful the guy is. Unless he is a god being able to be everywhere at once, and he wants to rule a big empire instead of going around killing people because why the fuck not, he needs to work out the legal structure of his empire. There are no exception from this and never were in history.

 

[Kalin]

That said, Obsidian is made up of amazing folks who have made some of my favorite games

But not while working at Obsidian, rite?

 

[MRY]

That said, Obsidian is made up of amazing folks who have made some of my favorite games

But not while working at Obsidian, rite?

There are lots of guys still around who worked on MOTB.

 

[KevinV12000]

Okay, interesting game and all, but IS THERE ANYWAY I CAN VOTE FOR TUNON IN NOVEMBER?

 

[Infinitron]

As for things that Feargus or Sawyer or whoever says, I will take it with a grain of salt. I have nothing against the company but we all saw what they promised on PoE versus the end result. So I don't put much stock in their words.

My impression is that high profile Kickstarters and similar RPGs generally deliver exactly what they promised...and not one bit more. People get disappointed when they assume that they're really going to deliver more than what they promised. See: Vault Dweller's assumption that PoE was actually going to be fantasy Fallout or MotB 2 or whatever "because it's Obsidian!", and not the souped up Baldur's Gate they always said they were going to make.

In other words, when a developer tells you "X will be more than Y" you can usually believe that. What you shouldn't do is go on and assume that both X and Y will be off the charts, best game ever.

 

[Fargus]

As for things that Feargus or Sawyer or whoever says, I will take it with a grain of salt. I have nothing against the company but we all saw what they promised on PoE versus the end result. So I don't put much stock in their words.

My impression is that high profile Kickstarters and similar RPGs generally deliver exactly what they promised...and not one bit more. People get disappointed when they assume that they're really going to deliver more than what they promised. See: Vault Dweller's assumption that PoE was actually going to be fantasy Fallout or MotB 2 or whatever "because it's Obsidian!", and not the souped up Baldur's Gate they always said they were going to make.

In other words, when a developer tells you "X will be more than Y" you can usually believe that. What you shouldn't do is go on and assume that both X and Y will be off the charts, best game ever.

Makes sense. Especially in PoE case. I expected for it to be much better than just an ok game. Because Obsidian.

 

[Visbhume]

The idea of having to cope with obscure and contradictory orders reminds me of Paranoia.

 

[Vault Dweller]

As for things that Feargus or Sawyer or whoever says, I will take it with a grain of salt. I have nothing against the company but we all saw what they promised on PoE versus the end result. So I don't put much stock in their words.

My impression is that high profile Kickstarters and similar RPGs generally deliver exactly what they promised...and not one bit more. People get disappointed when they assume that they're really going to deliver more than what they promised. See: Vault Dweller's assumption that PoE was actually going to be fantasy Fallout or MotB 2 or whatever "because it's Obsidian!", and not the souped up Baldur's Gate they always said they were going to make.

In other words, when a developer tells you "X will be more than Y" you can usually believe that. What you shouldn't do is go on and assume that both X and Y will be off the charts, best game ever.

For the record, I've never expected fantasy Fallout (lolwut?) but I did expect more than "souped up" BG and a for a good reason:

"Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment."

"Project Eternity's team is focusing on three core ideas that will capture the Infinity Engine experiences players loved so much:

• Unique, beautiful, dynamic environments that encourage and reward exploration.
• A story that is both personal and far-reaching, with believable characters and factions that create compelling dilemmas for players.
• Fun and challenging tactical combat that can escalate in difficulty through the use of optional game modes."

I've never expected tactical combat, but I did hope to get that "story that is both personal and far-reaching, with believable characters and factions that create compelling dilemmas for players" and not "because it's Obsidian!" but because it's always been Black Isle/Obsidian's strength: lore, worldbuilding, dialogues. Considering the writing talent, I think it's fair to say that Obsidian did drop the ball there and few people could see it coming.

 

[Spectacle]

This just proves that you don't get this. What you described is cartoon villans doing evil stuff. If we take a more realistic approach, an evil overlord will know that to rule a land, the land needs rules and laws.

The necessity of laws depends on the goals and structure of power in society.

Since this is fantasy I am guessing Kyros himself is really fucking powerful -- there has been no indication that he is a Littlefinger type villain who is physically weak but gains power through cunning and manipulation. Also, the Archons are described as "beings of immense power" and they work for Kyros. I don't think the Archons would work for someone weaker than themselves -- remember, we're supposed to be evil, and they established in the released short story that soldiers will kill their leaders if they think they are weak.

So considering that by all indications Kyros has overwhelming force on his side -- and as an evil overlord shouldn't be too worried about being fair to people -- then no, it doesn't make sense that he would need a byzantine legal structure to govern his domain. He and his dudes are stronger than everyone, so what they say goes.

That is how evil people work IRL too, but they must use legal structures and deception to control people because they lack the means to do so directly.

No matter how strong you are, unless you can be everywhere at once to personally tell everyone what to do all the time, you're going to need laws and rules and some kind of command hierarchy to regulate society and put your orders into action. The difference between tyrrany and a free society is not whether or not there are laws but how they are applied. A tyrant will ignore his own laws whenever he feels like it, make up new laws on the spot and apply them retroactively, etc.

 

[Infinitron]

I've never expected tactical combat, but I did hope to get that "story that is both personal and far-reaching, with believable characters and factions that create compelling dilemmas for players" and not "because it's Obsidian!" but because it's always been Black Isle/Obsidian's strength: lore, worldbuilding, dialogues. Considering the writing talent, I think it's fair to say that Obsidian did drop the ball there and few people could see it coming.

I could argue with you about those things (including the idea that Obsidian, a company that made their name working with other people's IPs, are supposed to be "strong in worldbuilding"), but I'm not really thinking about Kickstarter buzzwords here. I'm talking about the things developers say when the game is already a concrete thing in development. We have a talk by Chris Avellone saying "This game is primarily modelled after Baldur's Gate". Don't feel too bad though, even Roguey didn't believe him then.

 

[MRY]

I've never expected tactical combat, but I did hope to get that "story that is both personal and far-reaching, with believable characters and factions that create compelling dilemmas for players" and not "because it's Obsidian!" but because it's always been Black Isle/Obsidian's strength: lore, worldbuilding, dialogues. Considering the writing talent, I think it's fair to say that Obsidian did drop the ball there and few people could see it coming.

I could argue with you about those things (including the idea that Obsidian, a company that made their name working with other people's IPs, are supposed to be "strong in worldbuilding"), but I'm not really thinking about Kickstarter buzzwords here. I'm talking about the things developers say when the game is already a concrete thing in development. We have a talk by Chris Avellone saying "This game is primarily modelled after Baldur's Gate". Don't feel too bad though, even Roguey didn't believe him then.

You do realize that outside the Codex, the world thinks that Baldur's Gate had a "story that is both personal and far-reaching, with believable characters and factions that create compelling dilemmas for players." Thus, I don't think when Avellone said it would be "primarily modeled after Baldur's Gate," he was disavowing prior statements re: the quality of the story-telling. I assumed he just meant the balance of exploration/combat/narrative, the high-fantasy setting, etc.

 

[Infinitron]

You do realize that outside the Codex, the world thinks that Baldur's Gate had a "story that is both personal and far-reaching, with believable characters and factions that create compelling dilemmas for players." Thus, I don't think when Avellone said it would be "primarily modeled after Baldur's Gate," he was disavowing prior statements re: the quality of the story-telling.

Actually, considering Avellone's eventual fate, he very well may have been.