Game News Tyranny Dev Diary #3: Being a Fatebinder

[MRY]

 

[Vault Dweller]

I've never expected tactical combat, but I did hope to get that "story that is both personal and far-reaching, with believable characters and factions that create compelling dilemmas for players" and not "because it's Obsidian!" but because it's always been Black Isle/Obsidian's strength: lore, worldbuilding, dialogues. Considering the writing talent, I think it's fair to say that Obsidian did drop the ball there and few people could see it coming.

I could argue with you about those things (including the idea that Obsidian, a company that made their name working with other people's IPs, are supposed to be "strong in worldbuilding")...

Just because one's working with an established IP doesn't mean that worldbuilding isn't necessary. See KOTOR 2 - a game that filled the Star Wars universe with more depth than the last 4 movies combined.

 

[Infinitron]

I've never expected tactical combat, but I did hope to get that "story that is both personal and far-reaching, with believable characters and factions that create compelling dilemmas for players" and not "because it's Obsidian!" but because it's always been Black Isle/Obsidian's strength: lore, worldbuilding, dialogues. Considering the writing talent, I think it's fair to say that Obsidian did drop the ball there and few people could see it coming.

I could argue with you about those things (including the idea that Obsidian, a company that made their name working with other people's IPs, are supposed to be "strong in worldbuilding")...

Just because one's working with an established IP doesn't mean that worldbuilding isn't necessary. See KOTOR 2 - a game that filled the Star Wars universe with more depth than the last 4 movies combined.

Eh. Your problem is that you took these games, KOTOR 2 and MoTB, and used them to construct this mythology of Obsidian as "best writers in the industry". KOTOR 2, the last full-sized Avellone game, basically him running on the last creative fumes he had from Black Isle before settling into his weird decade of idleness. And MotB, a 10 hour expansion to a shitty game, that barely anybody really remembers outside this forum, which you've elevated to the status of a foundational Great Work.

Me, I liked MotB, but I was never that impressed by it. When I arrived on the Codex and saw it as being regarded as this godlike RPG that single-handedly saved the late 2000s from being a total loss for the genre, I didn't really get it. I mean, it was just an expansion FFS, it was over before you blinked. How is that the foundation for anything, how could you form your opinion of a company based on it?

I think for most people, Obsidian were basically just guys who made Bioware/Bethesda-style RPGs for a more mature audience, let's say 5 years older than their competitors. Which is great, but not synonymous with unparalleled artistic merit. Good enough for me, though.

 

[MRY]

And MotB, a 10 hour expansion to a shitty game, that barely anybody really remembers outside this forum, which you've elevated to the status of a foundational Great Work.

Me, I liked MotB, but I was never that impressed by it. When I arrived on the Codex and saw it as being regarded as this godlike RPG that single-handedly saved the late 2000s from being a total loss for the genre, I didn't really get it. I mean, it was just an expansion FFS, it was over before you blinked. How is that the foundation for anything, how could you form your opinion of a company based on it?

Well, it's not just VD: the Codex placed MotB #12 on its list of greatest RPGs ever. Also, not sure where the 10-hour playtime comes from (HowLongToBeat.com gives it 17.5 for main story, 24.5 "combined" -- accounting for extras, etc.; by contrast, Fallout is 18/21.5). Much about the game is terrible (e.g., the NWN2 engine, the combat, the looting), but for writing/narrative/reactivity, I'm not sure what more you could hope for. KOTOR2 and MOTB are both in the very top tier of RPG writing. Maybe that doesn't say much for them, given the competition, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to have high hopes for future games based upon them.

 

[Trashos]

This sounds like a cartoonish type of Evil? I had predicted that Evil would be subtle in-game, but I am starting to think that I was wrong.

On the bright side, maybe there will be cameos by Coyote and Beep Beep.

The difference between tyrrany and a free society is not whether or not there are laws but how they are applied. A tyrant will ignore his own laws whenever he feels like it, make up new laws on the spot and apply them retroactively, etc.

Laws are applied retroactively all the fucking time in the democracies of Southern Europe.

 

[Roguey]

See Vault Dweller's post. There is no chance whatsoever that your avatar doesn't evolve into a demigod who can do whatever he wants by the last 1/3 of the game. I'll be shocked if the C&C amounts to anything more than different ending slides, a la New Vegas.

This makes it a worse concept and pitch than Dungeon Siege, Fable, Oblivion, Dragon Age, Kingdoms of Amalur, etc how?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Eh. Your problem is that you took these games, KOTOR 2 and MoTB, and used them to construct this mythology of Obsidian as "best writers in the industry". KOTOR 2, the last full-sized Avellone game, basically him running on the last creative fumes he had from Black Isle before settling into his weird decade of idleness. And MotB, a 10 hour expansion to a shitty game, that barely anybody really remembers outside this forum, which you've elevated to the status of a foundational Great Work.

First of all, if not Obsidian then who else? Second, like it or not but the best written games, including PST, did come from people working for Obsidian. They did have the top talent before Avellone's departure and they still do.

Me, I liked MotB, but I was never that impressed by it. When I arrived on the Codex and saw it as being regarded as this godlike RPG that single-handedly saved the late 2000s from being a total loss for the genre, I didn't really get it. I mean, it was just an expansion FFS, it was over before you blinked.

And your point being what? That expansions don't count, no matter how brilliant? Or that short games don't count?

 

[Alex]

The idea of having to cope with obscure and contradictory orders reminds me of Paranoia.

You know, I just realized the guy is being beset by two of his own clones.

 

[Zanzoken]

This makes it a worse concept and pitch than Dungeon Siege, Fable, Oblivion, Dragon Age, Kingdoms of Amalur, etc how?

It doesn't in and of itself. You and the posters before you were the ones who equated criticizing Tyranny to being a fan of popamole RPGs like Skyrim. Because apparently the only reason a person wouldn't be excited about this project is because you don't get to LARP a dragonslaying Chosen One.

My point was merely that Tyranny doesn't look like it's going to be much different. You're still starting out as someone powerful and important, and the obviously brewing conflict with Tunon the legendary badass has "ancient evil" written all over it. And that's not really a problem, it's fine -- except for some reason everyone is pretending that because we've been designated as Evil(tm) ourselves then it's all new and interesting.

So no, it's not a bad pitch because of the power fantasy aspects. It's a bad pitch because everything they have revealed so far looks like shit. I went into detail on that earlier in the thread.

 

[Zanzoken]

No matter how strong you are, unless you can be everywhere at once to personally tell everyone what to do all the time, you're going to need laws and rules and some kind of command hierarchy to regulate society and put your orders into action. The difference between tyrrany and a free society is not whether or not there are laws but how they are applied. A tyrant will ignore his own laws whenever he feels like it, make up new laws on the spot and apply them retroactively, etc.

You are exactly right -- tyrants don't really give a shit about the law, justice, or fairness. They only care about power. For tyrants in real life, a.k.a. politicians, the law is the source of their power (at least in the developed world). They twist it, make it complex and esoteric, yet also vague and malleable -- all so they can more easily get it to do what they want. Control of the law means control over people.

But Kyros shouldn't have to worry about manipulating the law, because he has power directly. His world is "might makes right" and he is the mightiest -- why bother with an intricate legal system and a team of highly educated judges? An evil dictator has no reason to care about the law in such a strict interpretive/academic sense and yet apparently Kyros does.

It doesn't really make sense.

 

[l3loodAngel]

and now these silly laws. I'm pretty sure an evil overlord only needs one law -- do what I say or I'll fuck you up.

This just proves that you don't get this. What you described is cartoon villans doing evil stuff. If we take a more realistic approach, an evil overlord will know that to rule a land, the land needs rules and laws.

Should I be surprised that as Obsi gets more retarded so does its fans? On the topic of tranny:

 

[J_C]

But Kyros shouldn't have to worry about manipulating the law, because he has power directly. His world is "might makes right" and he is the mightiest -- why bother with an intricate legal system and a team of highly educated judges? An evil dictator has no reason to care about the law in such a strict interpretive/academic sense and yet apparently Kyros does.

It doesn't really make sense.

That way Kyros' empire would slowly destroy itself from the indside, there would be constant infighting when Kyros is not around. In a few decades or even years, Kyros wouldn't have anything to rule. What you say makes sense if Kyros would just invade a country to plunder it from all its resources and leave. But you can't seriously think that when someone wants to rule a country for decades, or even centuries, there shouldn't be any laws. How will the servents of Kyros pay the taxes to their lord, how will the conscription work for his military, who will regulate the mages so they won't blow up Kyros' favourite golf club.

I'm pretty sure an evil overlord only needs one law -- do what I say or I'll fuck you up.

Never try to rule a land mate. So he will go to each and every person in his empire and say what to do? I think there needs to be a system where his underlings help him to carry out his will aka his laws.

 

[Naveen]

Wasn't this supposed to be the game where "Sauron won"?

 

[Infinitron]

The Lawful Evil tyrant is a fantasy tradition that goes all the way back to Lord frigging Blackthorn. It's cool that we're getting a game that's exploring that. Zanzoken is being obtuse about this IMO.

And your point being what? That expansions don't count, no matter how brilliant? Or that short games don't count?

That they shouldn't be assigned too much importance when assessing a company's potential - the sort of games they're likely to produce on a regular basis. You're probably aware of the phenomenon of game developers that make DLC that's much tighter and better designed than the base game it's for. Doesn't mean they can replicate that when making their next full-sized game.

So to get back on topic, let's look at Tyranny. Is it a good idea to expect it to be the next MotB ("GOD-TIER WRITING")? Probably not. Expecting it to be the next Alpha Protocol (cool concept, tons of C&C, but no great work of art), on the other hand? That makes more sense to me.

 

[Kev Inkline]

"The Archon of the Black Vale and the Archoness of New Ranosia are embroiled in a deep dispute over riparian rights related to River Naxus. Complicating matters are a two-centuries-old settlement vesting the Syndic Tion -- as successor in interest to the Syndic Petrus -- with certain effluvial easements upstream on the Naxus. While that settlement is arguably abrogated by Kyros' conquest, a persuasive but non-binding decision of the Fatebinder Smaell suggests that it may continue to have force. A slight drought and a reduced flow of the Naxus due to sediment buildup has resulted in insufficient water to fully irrigate the Ranosian kale fields, and the Archoness is concerned what this will due to the export-import balance of her territory. Fatebinder, we have assigned you two law clerks to assist in your research. Go forth!"

So this is where the excess verbiage from TTON ended up in.

 

[Trotsky]

I've never expected tactical combat, but I did hope to get that "story that is both personal and far-reaching, with believable characters and factions that create compelling dilemmas for players" and not "because it's Obsidian!" but because it's always been Black Isle/Obsidian's strength: lore, worldbuilding, dialogues. Considering the writing talent, I think it's fair to say that Obsidian did drop the ball there and few people could see it coming.

I could argue with you about those things (including the idea that Obsidian, a company that made their name working with other people's IPs, are supposed to be "strong in worldbuilding")...

Just because one's working with an established IP doesn't mean that worldbuilding isn't necessary. See KOTOR 2 - a game that filled the Star Wars universe with more depth than the last 4 movies combined.

What's great about KoToR II exactly? It's the same characters/universe established in KoToR (which you hate) but darker. In other words a sequel that improved on the original.

 

[Kalin]

It's a piece of shit.

 

[Corporate_Jew_Master]

First of all, I think if you don't think FO:NV has pretty good C&C, your standards might already be too high. But this seems like it'll have more.

 

[Roguey]

You and the posters before you were the ones who equated criticizing Tyranny to being a fan of popamole RPGs like Skyrim.

I said no such thing.

Because apparently the only reason a person wouldn't be excited about this project is because you don't get to LARP a dragonslaying Chosen One.

No, but "worst concept/pitch ever" leads me to believe that you hate it because it's trying to be different and you haven't said anything to convince me otherwise.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I've never expected tactical combat, but I did hope to get that "story that is both personal and far-reaching, with believable characters and factions that create compelling dilemmas for players" and not "because it's Obsidian!" but because it's always been Black Isle/Obsidian's strength: lore, worldbuilding, dialogues. Considering the writing talent, I think it's fair to say that Obsidian did drop the ball there and few people could see it coming.

I could argue with you about those things (including the idea that Obsidian, a company that made their name working with other people's IPs, are supposed to be "strong in worldbuilding")...

Just because one's working with an established IP doesn't mean that worldbuilding isn't necessary. See KOTOR 2 - a game that filled the Star Wars universe with more depth than the last 4 movies combined.

What's great about KoToR II exactly?

Everything that falls under 'writing', from characters like Kreia to the overall themes. Combat was shit but it was Bio's 'hand-me-down'. Same goes for all the other mechanics.

It's the same characters/universe established in KoToR (which you hate) but darker. In other words a sequel that improved on the original.

It's like asking about the difference between the original trilogy and the new one. After all, the characters and the universe are the same (but a shade lighter because we have Jar-Jar), right?

 

[Neanderthal]

Sith Lords is only time i've found Star Wars interestin since first en came out back in 79 were it, allright movie, followed by a good un an rest were shit. Like few o themes in TSL, specially that only by severin someone from force do they gain perspective on it, otherwise Sith or Jedi (makes no difference really) is just spoiled, stunted children actin by rote like slaves.

 

[Trotsky]

It's a piece of shit.

It was a buggy and unfinished mess that's for sure.

Everything that falls under 'writing', from characters like Kreia to the overall themes. Combat was shit but it was Bio's 'hand-me-down'. Same goes for all the other mechanics....It's like asking about the difference between the original trilogy and the new one. After all, the characters and the universe are the same (but a shade lighter because we have Jar-Jar), right?

So KoToR II had more darkside companions and the darkside ending to the first game was the unofficial canon. I like the sequel for that too but it's not groundbreaking stuff. The first game took far more risks by creating a new and untested Star Wars setting which you seem to attribute to Obsidian. It was also going to introduce clones as central to the plot until LucasArts axed the idea for obvious reasons. This strong contempt for the first game but fawning admiration for the second is one of the most bizarre things I've seen.

 

[Athelas]

So KoToR II had more darkside companions and the darkside ending to the first game was the unofficial canon. I like the sequel for that too but it's not groundbreaking stuff. The first game took far more risks by creating a new and untested Star Wars setting which you seem to attribute to Obsidian.

Kotor's setting is literally a point-for-point rehash of the setting of the OT, which is idiotic, because Kotor is set 4000 years in the past.

It's Obsidian who brought in setting-appropriate things like the beastriders and the Miraluka, but the damage was already done at that point.

I have no real knowledge of the Star Wars universe outside the movies, but from what I understand Bioware ignored a ton of material which explored that setting and it was completely different from what's depicted in the Kotor games (it was much more primitive, obviously). The art direction in those comics certainly looked a lot more interesting.

 

[Trotsky]

The first game was generic in some ways and original in others but otherwise they're similar and KoToR II simply expanded on a solid foundation like a proper sequel should.

 

[Infinitron]

The first game took risks... Star Wars

If you want to take about taking risks, I'd say KOTOR 1's most notable achievement was in successfully exporting a formerly PC-exclusive style of RPG to consoles.