You'd probably sing a different tune if you did a xbow only build on release or something similar.
I don't see how that would relate to the present time. I've already said that I made an objectively garbage build that tried to do everything, and it took a lot of effort and creativity to pass the wall that was in front of me. I can only imagine xbow build made by players on release or close to that face a lot of crappy situation but not as much and/or dire as that garbage build I made. They might felt like they're playing a build not truly optimized for the game (either partially or as a whole), but if they had fun with it, then they can replay the game with completely different build. And if they want to revisit xbow build (and also some players new to it want to try), xbow now have easier* time thanks to all the changes like special bolts new stackings and the new feats.
*before you begin to argue based on Hard/DOMINATING difficulty, I'm mostly talking from a perspective of a wimp who have no confidence in starting even Hard and have been playing on Normal mostly.
I don't want UR to add a respec, but I can understand people not wanting to waste time replaying the game to make minor edits to their builds.
You know, your arguments don't really adds up at all. First, in context of the discussion we're having at hand, ortucis is a player new to Underrail, and since he's complaining about the game being linear I'd assume he's not get past Junkyard at this point. The whole stretch from SGS -> Junkyard aren't that long, and if he restart at any point along this stretch each restart should get him faster to the current point of previous character, so I don't see how those are waste of time, *unless* the game's truly not for him, of which upon that realization he should've uninstalled the game instead of coming here complaining how the game's 'start' can't be skipped (whatever 'start' he meant, anyway). So, if he's actually been restarting the game (otherwise, why would he be complaining about being unable to skip the 'start' of the game?) then he's truly a fucking retard to keep on putting skillpoints into skills he's not going to use. If he's actually haven't restarted the game at all.... well, why don't he just man up and accept the happy little accidents that he brought upon himself and start focusing on what he really wants to do with the build?
Okay, back to your argument not adding up. Based on what I said above, ortucis's problem is rather minor, like you also just said. But then, in your previous post, you gotta bring up not being able to use a level 25 char to try another build, AND xbow build made on release getting the short end of the stick. I'm pretty sure "being unable to use a level 25 char to try another build" and "dedicated xbow build on release being crappy" are completely different problem to "minor mistakes of wasting *some* skillpoints into skills you're not going to use much".
Now, suppose we have an option to respec a level 25 character into a completely different build. Then, what? What are you going to play? What content are you going to tackle after you respec your level 25 character into a different character? To get to level 25 in the first place, you need to tackle quests and clear areas, and especially if you're playing Oddity then you *absolutely* need to complete quests. What's left for your respecced character? Okay, say you're playing classic XP mode, then you can just autistically grind random areas where creatures are respawning, all the way to level 25, and you finally managed to get there. Fuck the time and effort spent to get to level 25 before even beginning to tackle quests, you finally get to respec your level 25 character to try a completely different build. The questions now is the difficulty of the content you're going experience. They were never designed to challenge a (respecced) level 25 character in the first place. Respeccing a level 25 character and have it restart from the beginning of the game is out of question, UNLESS it's New Game+. EXCEPT, New Game+ was never considered by Styg in the first place. I can only imagine all the adjustment, balancing, and design changes that the indie team has to do to accommodate Underrail New Game+ experience.
Look, first time players needs not worry about happy little accidents they've made in their build. At most, if they REALLY care about playing a build that's comfortable for them, then they should be restarting the game before even getting the quest to go to Junkyard, and I absolutely don't see how is that waste of time for people who's having fun. I was a newcomer to the whole fucking genre back then, and I man up to swallow the happy little accidents I've made with my first build. ortucis, registered to this forum in 2009 and presumably a veteran of the genre, should be able to do more than what I've accomplished.
I think there is some expectation of balance for a single player game as well. It's a bit lazy for the developer to leave one or two build paths extremely strong relative to the others (looking at you Bethesda stealth).
I'd say this isn't much of a problem for Underrail, considering all the nerfs to certain builds.
And no, it can't be included in game, because desing should take into considerations existance of respec.
No. The game design is not impacted by allowing re-specialization or not: you are not inventing new builds
Yes, they do. The most common theoretical problem that I see people brought up against respeccing in Underrail is that one can abuse respeccing by making a dedicated crafting character to craft all the good stuff very early, and when they respec they can just zero their crafting skills and maximize other skills of the archetype they want to play. To prevent that, what part of the game you need to change?
If you have no time for a game - then just don't play.
This a stupid platitude.
It's actually a more sound argument than "if you don't like respec, then don't use it!". If, for some people, having to restart the game to correct "minor" mistakes, or especially if they think restarting at most 2-hours worth of progress in an RPG like Underrail is waste of time, then they shouldn't be playing in the first place.
Fenix I agree, respec is unnecessary. If you make a gimp build, it's likely because you didnt understand the system.
How could you
really understand the system without at least one complete playthrough!? In most cases you cannot.
If it's your first playthrough, then you shouldn't be concerned with respeccing to get SUPAH build.
If the mistakes are minor, like couple of skillpoints put into skills not relevant to the archetype, then just man up and start focusing on what matters.
If the mistakes are major like taking the wrong feat, then the player should reflect if he's managed to actually complete quests and winning encounters at all. If he did, and he had fun, proceed. If he doesn't, restart, or uninstall the game. In case of hitting a wall, then getting creative is the way to go; use items you've never before, or try explore someplace else instead of banging your head against that wall over and over again hoping for an entirely different results.
My 2 cents:
Complete respec is cancer because the causal chain is broken: you can have the optimal build for any situation or obstacle. There is no challenge and the game experience is basically meaningless (*except for bragging on the internet).
On the other hand, limited respec is actually desirable when the build is not fundamentally changed.
For example: At level 10 I've discovered that I've chosen one wrong, low synergy and ineffectual feat at level 5.
My options were:
1) Find a save before level 5. Spend several hours doing the exact same quests.
2) Abandon the run and restart the game. Spend even more hours to reach the same point in the game.
3) Use CE and modify that one singular feat.
Now, the choice is obvious, I did not like it but I did respec that one feat and I could carry on with my playthrough with minimal impact. I did not do it for bragging rights on the internet, I did it for me because my time is also important.
In the end, I think I'm just trying to say that respec is non-issue: there are no valid or invalid ways to play a single player game which already allows levels of difficulty.
20 years ago I was raging against all cheaters but then I realized that it doesn't matter. You can hold yourself to a higher moral standard but it's a waste of time to expect the same thing from others.
Thing is, in case of Underrail, more advanced feats have sufficiently and relevantly high requirements relative to the build archetypes. Which means you wouldn't be taking feats 'irrelevant' to your build, since you wouldn't even have access to feats with completely different requirement than the archetype you've created (say, you wouldn't have access to feats like Survival Instinct in the first place if you're making a 3 CON, 10 AGI character who specialized in Dodge and Evasion). Meanwhile, the feats that have zero requirements in Underrail that you can take from since character creation are relatively universal and always have its uses for any kind of build, except maybe Recklessness, which have zero synergy with PSI-build. I've heard its description was pretty vague in previous versions, but it's clearer now. Also, Recklessness a level 1, zero requirement feat so restarting the game IS the way to go if you happen to get this problem.
Also, level 5 is pretty low level, at least in Underrail that has level 25 as maximum level. So, instead of doing all the 3 options you have above, the most plausible option you SHOULD be doing is to carry on and start to develop your character in such a way that the 'wrong' feat you took will be much more effective and have high synergy at latter levels.
Alright, folks, I think it's time for someone to bring this up. Can anybody here mention, by name and how, any RPG worth their salt that gives their players an option to respec, at all? Or at least, a method of respec in other games that will probably fit like a glove for an RPG like Underrail.
I think I can answer the latter question: Tales of Maj'Eyal has a respec mechanic of some sort. Basically, the game allows you to revert (iirc) 2 or 3 levels worth of character progression, but ONLY in towns. The thing is, Tales of Maj'Eyal is a completely different game than Underrail, and it's a roguelike too. Each leveling up in ToME give 3 attribute points, 1 class talent point, and 1 generic talent point. It's why the respeccing method for ToME works since there's not much numerical points involved, and I can slightly see this method work for Underrail. You can ONLY revert 1 leveling up, and you gotta go to towns to do that, or to thematically fit the whole game, just one town at that. Thing is, would you people gonna be able to handle all the backtracking should you do mistakes time and time again?
