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I was one of the first, if not the first, to post post-Deep Caverns impressions on the codex before all the nerfs. I've reached the place at lvl 17 and I could not kill Tchort because my build was fucked up and the Mutagen puzzle was broken ... but please tell me more about your ePenis.
I was one of the first, if not the first, to post post-Deep Caverns impressions on the codex before all the nerfs. I've reached the place at lvl 17 and I could not kill Tchort because my build was fucked up and the Mutagen puzzle was broken ... but please tell me more about your ePenis.
Nothing to do with epenis. I consider rerolling or restarting a char a normal way in a true RPG, especially if you totally fuck your character. Its also a common sense, given how RPGs play, to expect that you go all in in one of the attributes, like in standard RPGs going for warrior you dump your points in strength/hp/melee etc. not adding some points in intelligence/mana/intellect etc. Its a common fucking sense if you played RPGs for 20 years. Hybrid builds are usually for people who know the game well and want to experiment. In UR if you read the feat page beforehand, you would see that hybrid builds are not really a UR cup of tea. I always spend at least a few minutes, to even an hour when starting any RPG, getting accustomed with skill tree, perks etc.
Finally found the drill parts. So far, it's been a really fun game. I can't imagine before it was nerfed, I honestly am unsure if I'd have been able to make it through that. The game is pretty difficult even on Normal still, although it has gotten easier since I picked up an assault rifle and raised my Guns, Traps and Throwing skills.
Because what I asked is why you can't just not do something if you don't like it and your reply was a bunch of stuff about how I'm a cheater who just wants to feel OK about cheating. Asking you why you can't just ignore a feature that you don't like is not assigning you a position.
Because it's a slippery slope. Because it's not much different than putting IDDQD as a toggle in the options menu in DOOM.
Because this is how all shit, newfag features have become standard and are now "quality of life". This is what leads to cover shooters with health-regen.
Because if you want to cheat you can cheat without calling it "respecting muh time" or "quality of life"
Slippery slope how? We're talking about a feature that really only makes sense in difficult games with unbalanced build choices. Most RPGs are so piss easy respeccing would be just a waste of time. It is really only a consideration in a game that is hard enough to make you notice that you've gimped your character.
If you're playing a game that is actually challenging enough to make respeccing relevant, why the fuck would you care that someone else uses the feature where you would decide to start over? And if story mode rpg-lite cover shooter has repeccing, is respeccing anywhere near the biggest problem with the game?
Lol UR is perfectly doable on normal with suboptimal build. Domination is pretty much undoable, unless you theorycraft special build. But normal, come on, you will have 100 spare hypos at the end of the game.
I have heard in discord, that Domination is doable even with tourist - I called it like that - build, that have ZERO combat feats, just by utilizing SMG, having 10 in Per, Int, and Con....
You can play dumb builds even on Dominating. I got through a run with no combat/movement feats at all, just every crafting feat plus Salesman, and no gas grenade abuse. Just max Guns every level, no special abilities but Burst. Didn't even stat for fighting, just went with 10 Per and 10 Int and 10 Con. Only had to reload a few times, but certainly didn't make it in an Ironman fashion.
ITT, fanboys writing essays, defending restarting the whole game to change one stat over having a respec option in-game to do the same for a fee or XP cost.
Also, fanboys who refuse to acknowledge shit UI, awful trading, no zoom levels for higher resolutions and no fucking Steam cloud saves.
I know you all have trouble seeing these things with that Underrail cock smacking your face, but try to understand, all of us are not the same dribbling cocktards. Also, if I wanted to play something with shit UI in __Current Year__ I'd have loaded up a Infinity Engine game. Just cause the developer thinks something is "undermining the foundations of RPG", doesn't mean it's true.
ITT, fanboys writing essays, defending restarting the whole game to change one stat over having a respec option in-game to do the same for a fee or XP cost.
Also, fanboys who refuse to acknowledge shit UI, awful trading, no zoom levels for higher resolutions and no fucking Steam cloud saves.
I know you all have trouble seeing these things with that Underrail cock smacking your face, but try to understand, all of us are not the same dribbling cocktards. Also, if I wanted to play something with shit UI in __Current Year__ I'd have loaded up a Infinity Engine game. Just cause the developer thinks something is "undermining the foundations of RPG", doesn't mean it's true.
ITT, fanboys writing essays, defending restarting the whole game to change one stat over having a respec option in-game to do the same for a fee or XP cost.
You're right in that there's no need for an essay, but only because you can sum things up in just a sentence. Respec can't work in Underrail because it'd make crafting skills/feats pointless since you could just take them, make your equipment, then respec them to something else. Can't happen. Even if Styg liked the idea, it can't work. The end.
Making respecs cost XP could almost work since there's a finite amount of XP in the game so at least you'd have to pay a price (because let's face it, paying money doesn't matter), but that just means people would complain about how unfair it is to permanently lose some. Or they'd just play classic mode, but classic is stupid so the less people playing it the better.
Yea, I have a suboptimal build too, my stats weren't as applicable as I thought to melee, and I've wasted quite a bit of skill points (Dodge, Evasion, which my heavy armour nullifies). And I'm still doing alright. I have had to cheese some fights by leaving the area, healing, and re-entering, but where I am now, I don't need to do that as much. It actually seems fairly easy at this point.
Edit: the real funny part is, I have 11 Movement Points in combat. My character is slow as fk!
That feeling of desolation though. Entering Hollow Earth for the first time. Atmospherefag galore. The game also has great art direction, overall desaturated with bright highlights. All without being grimdark.
I wrote a working solver in little over 100 lines of Python. Granted it's fast only on pypy but it can solve stuff with up to 7 steps in seconds. Solving up to 5-6 takes less than a second. Tygrende thanks for the sample mutagen set.
Really? It was fun for me and I don't like crafting in RPGs. Or in general.
But it extends to all game aspects I guess. People love aspect X of a given game, then comes a person Y and says it sucks. The majority is dumbstruck. Maybe I myself shouldn't white-knight Underrail too hard either. That exchanges calling each other retards 'cause they liked or didn't like a feature/the game are just meh.
Allow the player to experiment with any available feat until level up. Then on level up freeze his feat selection.
Example: I'm level 5 and on level up I can choose between 6+ feats. My idea is to let the player play with these available feats (but only one of them and any given time) until level up and then ask the player to choose a final feat from that set.
It's actually an interesting idea. Better yet, allow the player to choose a provisional feat and allow a final change on the next level (that has no feat to choose, it goes every two levels).
But in reality, just read the wiki. It has caveats and more involved descriptions. If there are missing caveats then they should be added to the wiki.
The descriptions there are useless - look at Mental Subversion and Neural Overload and try to decide whether the former is a worthwhile pickup. None of the underlying mechanics are exposed to the player.
I don't feel strong about these ideas but I will repeat what I already said:
1) Allow the player to experiment with any available feat until level up. Then on level up freeze his feat selection.
Example: I'm level 5 and on level up I can choose between 6+ feats. My idea is to let the player play with these available feats (but only one of them and any given time) until level up and then ask the player to choose a final feat from that set.
2) Allow 1 or more feat respec wildcards per run cause changing 1 or 2 feats will not fundamentally change you build.
Example: You made one wrong decision long time ago. Spend one wildcard to choose another feat and move on.
3) Unlock limited respec options on New Game++. As I said before, I'm against complete respec, I don't encourage it and I don't do it.
1) What about if players simply take crafting feats, use it to craft items, and then switch it upon asked to choose final feat? Will you propose having that items just gone like they never existed in the first place? And so, I have a better idea: make a save before you open your character sheet when you leveled up, pick a feat you want to experiment with, and go to town experimenting with it. If you feel good taking that feat, proceed. If not, reload the save, and take another feat, repeat the process until you're truly satisfied with your decision. I'm sure that while, at most, an hour of your time will be spent trying to decide whether or not that feat is worth taking *now* or *at all*, not even close to 30-minutes of game's progression will be lost if you ever decided to reload.
2) This is also, like above, one of those methods that can be abused in such a way that players could simply take a crafting feat very early in the game, and when they exhausted that feat's usefulness (example: taking Armor Sloping to craft the best lighter metal armor) they could use your proposed wildcard to switch it with a feat more useful for their build archetype (like Commando for AR builds). Without any solution to this problem, I can assure you not even Styg will bat an eye at such suggestion.
3) And once again, Underrail was never made with New Game+ in mind. Especially, as you can see, Styg and co had their hands full with balancing the game around not only one, but four (4!) difficulty modes. The only games I've played which has New Game+ were the Soulsborne series and those games, despite of having fixed difficulty, had so many problems of their own when it comes to New Game+ and beyond. Only Dark Souls 2 did anything meaningful with its New Game+ mechanic, and by itself it already has shitton of problems to deal with.
I never heard of these self-proclaimed advanced players begging Styg for respec mechanic until now. Mostly only new players who don't want to restart 2-hours worth of progress simply to correct a mere 15 skill points wasted into wrong skill.
There are many reasons it won't be implemented. Respeccing undermines the very foundation of the RPG. Mistakes and imperfections are part of the experience.
If you ever see people discussing dedicated builds, behind the posts describing super-optimal Assault Rifle, Crossbow, Unarmed build etc etc, you name it. Behind those builds are people who experienced beforehand, with blood, sweat, and tears, the rise and fall of those character builds. What Styg really meant with "mistakes and imperfections", or as I interpret it, is that there are many unique moments waiting to be experienced by players who sought to complete a build. The way Underrail structure its character progression through 3 layers of depths (increasing skills every level, taking a new feat every 2 levels, and increase one of your main stats every 4 levels) means that the experience of playing a level 1 character will be very different to the experience of playing a level 5 character, and so does when playing a level 10, 15, and so on, and so on. Could be that your character makes more mistakes at level 1-5, but past level 10 your character begin to get a hang of each and every situation.
While limited respec maybe easier to deal with (as I suggested in my previous post, a respec mechanic inspired by Tales of Maj'Eyal's), a complete respec simply, as Styg himself said, undermines the very foundation of the RPG, because the experience of playing a low level character and developing that character in any direction will be missing completely. Like I said in my other post, a veteran player could experience a certain build, complete the game with it, and post that full build + its progression. But your average joe will have VERY different experience when they tried to play with that build. Hell, not even your average joe, even other veteran players might have completely different experience trying to play with a build posted by fellow veteran players. And then there's a hypothetical question: "What if a dedicated build posted by someone can be done in a different way, and come out much better?"
With complete respec, those experiences unique to individual average joe and fellow veteran players will be non-existent.
With complete respec, the question above will never be answered.
Seriously, aren't you fuckers were among those people who crave the experience of coming back to starting areas and mow down low level enemies like the murder hobos you are? After previously, in early game, those motherfuckers gave you real hard time and surprise buttrape? I doubt complete respec will satisfy that craving which only lurks within the bottom of the hearts of hardcore RPG players.
And until this point, none of you fuckers answered my challenge:
Alright, folks, I think it's time for someone to bring this up. Can anybody here mention, by name and how, any RPG worth their salt that gives their players an option to respec, at all? Or at least, a method of respec in other games that will probably fit like a glove for an RPG like Underrail.
Tales of Maj'Eyal has a respec mechanic of some sort. Basically, the game allows you to revert (iirc) 2 or 3 levels worth of character progression, but ONLY in towns. The thing is, Tales of Maj'Eyal is a completely different game than Underrail, and it's a roguelike too. Each leveling up in ToME give 3 attribute points, 1 class talent point, and 1 generic talent point. It's why the respeccing method for ToME works since there's not much numerical points involved, and I can slightly see this method work for Underrail. You can ONLY revert 1 leveling up, and you gotta go to towns to do that, or to thematically fit the whole game, just one town at that. Thing is, would you people gonna be able to handle all the backtracking should you do mistakes time and time again?
1) What about if players simply take crafting feats, use it to craft items, and then switch it upon asked to choose final feat? Will you propose having that items just gone like they never existed in the first place? And so, I have a better idea: make a save before you open your character sheet when you leveled up, pick a feat you want to experiment with, and go to town experimenting with it. If you feel good taking that feat, proceed. If not, reload the save, and take another feat, repeat the process until you're truly satisfied with your decision. I'm sure that while, at most, an hour of your time will be spent trying to decide whether or not that feat is worth taking *now* or *at all*, not even close to 30-minutes of game's progression will be lost if you ever decided to reload.
Alright, folks, I think it's time for someone to bring this up. Can anybody here mention, by name and how, any RPG worth their salt that gives their players an option to respec, at all?
Like I said, not even close to 30-minutes worth of game's progression would be lost doing this, so it's better than good. No matter if you lost 2, 3, 4 hours, or even your whole day trying out what feat you want to take when progressing to the next level, at the end of it all I think I can safely assume it wouldn't take more than 30 minutes to get your previous, current position in-game.
I mean, come on, good cRPGs can make you lost hours upon hours of you daily life staring at the character creation screen, and then some upon leveling up deciding what skills to level up and what feat to take next. Why spending an hour per level testing whether feats do what they allegedly do AND if they're worth it to take *now* or *at all* is somehow a bad thing?
How do they do it? Limited or complete respecs? At what point in the game did they allow you to respec? What about the problems I described above, like players taking crafting feats to craft gears and then switching it with other feats upon respec?
How do they do it? Limited or complete respecs? At what point in the game did they allow you to respec? What about the problems I described above, like players taking crafting feats to craft gears and then switching it with other feats upon respec?
PoE caters to that shit Something Awful crowd while attempting to ape the old infinity engine mechanics and feel, failing miserably.
D: OS caters to the MMO crowd with the dual play option. It is actually quite good and does its job.
But don't mention them in the same sentence as Underrail unless you want to say not as good as Underrail.
Well, mate, I think at this point we can safely assume that Styg does care about policing players.
Anyway, you mentioned "PoEs" and "D:OS" by name. I don't how much are they worth their salt in terms of being an RPG, but I'm going to mention RPGs worth their salt that has no respeccing mechanics whatsoever: the original Fallouts, Arcanum, and Age of Decadence. And these are the RPGs closer to Underrail than the PoEs (dunno how close D:OS is to Underrail, aside from both are turn-based).
If you ever see people discussing dedicated builds, behind the posts describing super-optimal Assault Rifle, Crossbow, Unarmed build etc etc, you name it. Behind those builds are people who experienced beforehand, with blood, sweat, and tears, the rise and fall of those character builds. What Styg really meant with "mistakes and imperfections", or as I interpret it, is that there are many unique moments waiting to be experienced by players who sought to complete a build. The way Underrail structure its character progression through 3 layers of depths (increasing skills every level, taking a new feat every 2 levels, and increase one of your main stats every 4 levels) means that the experience of playing a level 1 character will be very different to the experience of playing a level 5 character, and so does when playing a level 10, 15, and so on, and so on. Could be that your character makes more mistakes at level 1-5, but past level 10 your character begin to get a hang of each and every situation.
While limited respec maybe easier to deal with (as I suggested in my previous post, a respec mechanic inspired by Tales of Maj'Eyal's), a complete respec simply, as Styg himself said, undermines the very foundation of the RPG, because the experience of playing a low level character and developing that character in any direction will be missing completely. Like I said in my other post, a veteran player could experience a certain build, complete the game with it, and post that full build + its progression. But your average joe will have VERY different experience when they tried to play with that build. Hell, not even your average joe, even other veteran players might have completely different experience trying to play with a build posted by fellow veteran players. And then there's a hypothetical question: "What if a dedicated build posted by someone can be done in a different way, and come out much better?"
With complete respec, those experiences unique to individual average joe and fellow veteran players will be non-existent.
With complete respec, the question above will never be answered.
It doesn't matter what difficulty we're talking about.
Also, if you're going to argue that people shouldn't even care about other people respeccing to abuse crafting feats, once again, Styg does care about this. Do you have any counter-argument to Styg's notion that "respeccing undermines the very foundation of the RPG"?
