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Underrail'n'incline

epeli

Arcane
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
719
In the end the only reason to get crafting is to minmax your equipment stats. If you don't care about the difference between 52 and 59 quality you might as well save yourself the frustration, just get all your gear from vendor and enjoy the free skill points and feats you have to put on things that can actually make your character more fun and versatile.

Crafting is for minmaxing equipment stats? That's just not true.
You don't really care whether your crafted energy shield has X or X*1.1 capacity when the closest equivalent from shops might have half of that and wrong modulator(s). You don't really care whether your weapon has one point of extra damage (excluding OCD cases), as long as it's the correct type and has all the upgrades you want. You can't even buy all craftable weapon types. And so forth.

Another major use of crafting is keeping supplied on the field with relative ease, but that applies only to some builds. Mainly special crossbow bolts, throwing knives and traps, but also grenades. Of course, most characters don't need any of that and can work just fine without crafting and get plenty of extra stat and/or skillpoints by skipping it.

Try playing a character without any crafting and compare that to similar character who has small investment in all crafting skills; just enough to recycle junk loot, make repair kits, process some plant and animal matter. You might find the latter more fun and versatile thanks to the extra loot management options and better self-sustainability, before even considering the equipment and consumable crafting.

You didn't respond because a "ZING" one-liner is the best you'll ever hope to accomplish. Backing up your convictions with actual arguments requires an attention span you simply don't have. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
More like I've already had some discussions so many times over the years I've been here, I feel like it's not worth going the enxtra length to convince another two or three people they are wrong on some specific subject they know little about. I even already replied to Aenra about alternative systems on the other thread.

I've been carefully following the entire cooldown discussion from the sidelines, waiting for someone to come up with something good. I had to assume you're just trolling since you started the whole thing and so far all you've done is throw those "lol no ur wrong" oneliners to provoke easy reactions.

Seriously, if you think you've got something good, please share. I'll be lurking in Underrail threads for feedback and so are the devs. I know coming up with improvements or alternatives for an entire core system is a daunting task, especially for someone who's not intimately familiar with the game and its design philosophy, but your bloated ego seems up to the challenge.

tl;dr: Put up or shut up.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

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I've been carefully following the entire cooldown discussion from the sidelines, waiting for someone to come up with something good. I had to assume you're just trolling since you started the whole thing and so far all you've done is throw those "lol no ur wrong" oneliners to provoke easy reactions.

Seriously, if you think you've got something good, please share. I'll be lurking in Underrail threads for feedback and so are the devs. I know coming up with improvements or alternatives for an entire core system is a daunting task, especially for someone who's not intimately familiar with the game and its design philosophy, but your bloated ego seems up to the challenge.

tl;dr: Put up or shut up.
I've already posted about alternatives when talking over how psi is fucking banal for fuck's sake. The very fact one even needs to present alternatives to some new recent videogame trend invading RPGs is absurd, because it should be fairly obvious if you ever played RPGs in your life.

The way every decent system does is with availability and risk vs reward. The main problem with this game is that the mechanics simply are stupid and not designed like an RPG. You have feat-locked cooldown-based abilities where there could be simply tactical use based on accuracy modifiers, locational damage and effects.

"OMG GRENADES WOULD BE OP WITHOUT COOLDOWNS"

The only limiting factor of grenades is cooldown so no wonder. You carry 10 grenades of 10 different types without any risk of them going off, they are extremely reliable and industry standard even though you made them with your bare hands, exploding the moment they hit the ground instead of bouncing around and only going off after two turns or so (or not at all).

It hurts reading
 
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Excidium II

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Thankfully laptop guy has no stats so we can be forever satisfied with shit combat systems being default for CRPGs.
 

Eyestabber

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More like I've already had some discussions so many times over the years I've been here, I feel like it's not worth going the enxtra length to convince another two or three people they are wrong on some specific subject they know little about. I even already replied to Aenra about alternative systems on the other thread.

"Lololol, other games did it differently". OBVIOUSLY. You keep arguing a point NOBODY is contesting. What you fail to understand is that the cooldowns are at the very CORE of the game's system. Replacing them without tearing the whole system down and starting it again from scratch is not really doable, as I've shown in that thread.

It's very easy to criticize a game with "cooldowns are shit plebeian design. Replace them with a proper :obviously: system, please" while giving ZERO thought as to how such system would replace the previous one without bringing the entire combat system down. How would Last Stand fare on your new system? Locus of Control? Premeditation? As epeli pointed out, coming up with alternatives for an entire core system is a very daunting task. And while you fail to man up to such task, throwing lame one-liners left and right, well...

respectcartman.jpg


There. That's all there is to your criticism, sadly.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

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"Lololol, other games did it differently". OBVIOUSLY. You keep arguing a point NOBODY is contesting. What you fail to understand is that the cooldowns are at the very CORE of the game's system. Replacing them without tearing the whole system down and starting it again from scratch is not really doable, as I've shown in that thread.

It's very easy to criticize a game with "cooldowns are shit plebeian design. Replace them with a proper :obviously: system, please" while giving ZERO thought as to how such system would replace the previous one without bringing the entire combat system down. How would Last Stand fare on your new system? Locus of Control? Premeditation? As epeli pointed out, coming up with alternatives for an entire core system is a very daunting task. And while you fail to man up to such task, throwing lame one-liners left and right, well...
Did I actually ever request for it to be replaced? I only remember saying it's shit. I'm not stupid, I realize how much work it would be for design and implementation. This is something that needs to be done right from the start. is this how you try to salvage your position?
 

Eyestabber

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"Lololol, other games did it differently". OBVIOUSLY. You keep arguing a point NOBODY is contesting. What you fail to understand is that the cooldowns are at the very CORE of the game's system. Replacing them without tearing the whole system down and starting it again from scratch is not really doable, as I've shown in that thread.

It's very easy to criticize a game with "cooldowns are shit plebeian design. Replace them with a proper :obviously: system, please" while giving ZERO thought as to how such system would replace the previous one without bringing the entire combat system down. How would Last Stand fare on your new system? Locus of Control? Premeditation? As epeli pointed out, coming up with alternatives for an entire core system is a very daunting task. And while you fail to man up to such task, throwing lame one-liners left and right, well...
Did I actually ever request for it to be replaced? I only remember saying it's shit. I'm not stupid, I realize how much work it would be for design and implementation. This is something that needs to be done right from the start. is this how you try to salvage your position?

I'm not gonna bother digging old posts. I quoted several "suggestions" in that thread. As for your preference for systems that aren't designed around CDs, no arguments here. My favorite cRPGs don't use this system and neither does my 2015 GOTY (AoD). What makes zero sense is how you can go on playing a game (and asking a shiton of system related question) when said game is built upon a foundation you consider to be utter shite. You're either a masochist or you don't feel THAT strongly about said mechanics.
 

Catfish

Learned
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May 8, 2015
Messages
222
In the end the only reason to get crafting is to minmax your equipment stats. If you don't care about the difference between 52 and 59 quality you might as well save yourself the frustration, just get all your gear from vendor and enjoy the free skill points and feats you have to put on things that can actually make your character more fun and versatile.

I'm playing a crossbow + throwing + traps build, and crafting helps a lot with supplying said utilities.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

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Wrong in the case of xbow and traps since they depend on special consumables with limited availability.

I'm not gonna bother digging old posts. I quoted several "suggestions" in that thread. As for your preference for systems that aren't designed around CDs, no arguments here. My favorite cRPGs don't use this system and neither does my 2015 GOTY (AoD). What makes zero sense is how you can go on playing a game (and asking a shiton of system related question) when said game is built upon a foundation you consider to be utter shite. You're either a masochist or you don't feel THAT strongly about said mechanics.
My three favourite things in RPGs are systems, setting, and how they draw from each other. I find Underrail's setting interesting enough ~so far~ to tolerate the bad systems.
 

Commissar Draco

Codexia Comrade Colonel Commissar
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Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
Thankfully laptop guy has no stats so we can be forever satisfied with shit combat systems being default for CRPGs.

Funny thing but the Laptop guy/gal has plenty of stats if you decide to take the internet test aptitude test; and crafting is the must with Diablo loot and randomness of it... Could never found decent medium shield with high capacity for example... or good SMG; besides you need at least some crafting to brake down the loot and convert it into repair kits.
 

Catfish

Learned
Joined
May 8, 2015
Messages
222
Wrong in the case of xbow and traps since they depend on special consumables with limited availability.

I don't know, I always seem to have more than enough crafting components for the stuff I use. Bolts, mines, grenades, the lot. Really handy to be able to build like a mark iii grenade that would be most useful in a given encounter. And carrying around ingredients for a mine, a bag of caltrops, a grenade and a special bolt is more optimal than hauling lots of utilities. Since my build involves low constitution strength and I really don't want to get pack rathound, this turned out to work best.

EDIT: strength, not constitution.
 

Ellef

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Also in crafted armour, weapons.
Doesn't make that much difference if you don't minmax, can still find them all the time on vendors, just with shittier stats.

But they're not just lower stats of the same variety. The enhancements make a big difference and good luck finding the right combination in a store. SMG with barrel compensator and muzzle brake is not just store bought version with slightly better stats. Anyway epeli's post summed it up.
 

veevoir

Klytus, I'm bored
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong BattleTech
Thankfully laptop guy has no stats so we can be forever satisfied with shit combat systems being default for CRPGs.

Funny thing but the Laptop guy/gal has plenty of stats if you decide to take the internet test aptitude test; and crafting is the must with Diablo loot and randomness of it... Could never found decent medium shield with high capacity for example... or good SMG; besides you need at least some crafting to brake down the loot and convert it into repair kits.

Speaking of which - anyone tried disassemble feat? Is it a trap or actually works?

Not having to run around finding components sounds like a win.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

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Thankfully laptop guy has no stats so we can be forever satisfied with shit combat systems being default for CRPGs.

Funny thing but the Laptop guy/gal has plenty of stats if you decide to take the internet test aptitude test; and crafting is the must with Diablo loot and randomness of it... Could never found decent medium shield with high capacity for example... or good SMG; besides you need at least some crafting to brake down the loot and convert it into repair kits.

Speaking of which - anyone tried disassemble feat? Is it a trap or actually works?

Not having to run around finding components sounds like a win.
It's good if you can salvage parts that don't have quality/have 7 int anyway.
 

AW8

Arcane
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1,852
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North of Poland
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
It's very easy to criticize a game with "cooldowns are shit plebeian design. Replace them with a proper :obviously: system, please" while giving ZERO thought as to how such system would replace the previous one without bringing the entire combat system down. How would Last Stand fare on your new system? Locus of Control? Premeditation?.
Perhaps a mix of cooldown abilities and risk vs. reward abilities could work?

Stuff like Last Stand locked behind cooldowns, while stuff like Aimed/Kneecap Shot is different from a normal attack in AP cost, range, damage and effects instead of simply better (the decreased range of Kneecap Shot is already a good start).
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
Speaking of which - anyone tried disassemble feat? Is it a trap or actually works?

Not having to run around finding components sounds like a win.

Imo it can be useful when you are hunting for that one component and no vendor seems to be selling it or just can't be bothered checking them.
Of course with some ingredients you lose some quality, but often that doesn't degrade the end product that much.
 

Eyestabber

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It's very easy to criticize a game with "cooldowns are shit plebeian design. Replace them with a proper :obviously: system, please" while giving ZERO thought as to how such system would replace the previous one without bringing the entire combat system down. How would Last Stand fare on your new system? Locus of Control? Premeditation?.
Perhaps a mix of cooldown abilities and risk vs. reward abilities could work?

Stuff like Last Stand locked behind cooldowns, while stuff like Kneecap Shot is different from a normal attack in range, damage and effects instead of simply better.

Yeah, tbh I don't dig the replacement of aimed shots with CD controlled feats. A JA2 like system of body part targetting with superpowers in the form of CD controlled feats might have been more to my liking. But then again, I ain't gonna start with the "this game doesn't hold a candle to this other game that only exists in my head" argument.

Imo it can be useful when you are hunting for that one component and no vendor seems to be selling it or just can't be bothered checking them.
Of course with some ingredients you lose some quality, but often that doesn't degrade the end product that much.

And some components have no quality (bipods, scopes et al). It's a decent feat if you can spare a feat point.
 

bati

Scholar
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
Messages
142
Thankfully laptop guy has no stats so we can be forever satisfied with shit combat systems being default for CRPGs.

Funny thing but the Laptop guy/gal has plenty of stats if you decide to take the internet test aptitude test; and crafting is the must with Diablo loot and randomness of it... Could never found decent medium shield with high capacity for example... or good SMG; besides you need at least some crafting to brake down the loot and convert it into repair kits.

Speaking of which - anyone tried disassemble feat? Is it a trap or actually works?

Not having to run around finding components sounds like a win.

It's ok on a feat rich character but otherwise a waste. Even the rare components without quality (looking at you, Rapid Reloaders) are not rare enough to justify this feat. It might just be me though, I like to go full OCD and make a merchant tour every two hours to sell the loot and buy all the components that I might need at some point. My stash is currently stocked with 7 rapid reloaders, 12 100q+ different smg frames, 4 100+ quality Smart modules, 9 110+ quality shield modulators, 5 115+q plasma cores, etc, 3 110q+ Seeker panels, 2 110q+ smart panels, etc. You know, the usual. I uh, also have about 35 stacks of cashmoney and enough bullets to kill everyone in the game three times over. Even the respawning fuckers.

I might have overdone it a little.
 

Ziem

Arbiter
Joined
May 17, 2014
Messages
324
Speaking of which - anyone tried disassemble feat? Is it a trap or actually works?

Not having to run around finding components sounds like a win.
finished the game with it because i picked it early when i didnt know shit about the game and it seemed interesting
i thought that i'll have an opportunity to use it in some cool way but it turned out to be basically a moneymaking/moneysaving feat
it would be okay if disassembling didnt reduce item quality (as it would allow you to tweak your equipment more often - so essentially a qol perk) but as it is currently i think its a waste
 

Baron Dupek

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Jul 23, 2013
Messages
1,870,765
There is a feat that keep the 90% qualito of disassembled items parts.
If you can (if you like crafting in general and not affraid to play hard for a bit longer or not worry to break the game) of course.
 

Lord Andre

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Gypsystan
Disclaimer: feel free to skip this TLDR post, I wouldn't read it either.

IMO the problem with Excidium's anti-cooldown argument is that he is bringing up pen and paper concepts as alternatives. The issue here is that CRPGs play much much faster than P&P. The amount of combat encounters grows exponentially in CRPGs while the narrative remains roughly the same or maybe doubles or triples in length depending on side-quests and fluff. Thus combat related tools that are balanced around risk are unsuited for CRPGs. Everyone would simply huddle around the most consistent build. Having your grenades blow up in your backpack is fun in PnP where you have one encounter per session and it constitutes a "funny" story. Having it happening 6 times in 20 minutes will have the player reaching for the re-roll or uninstall button. Apply the exact same analogy for a grenade that explodes 2 turns too late. Imagine it happening in 6 fights in 20 minutes. Trap build ? Masochist build ?

Second, availability. Same problem. The length of CRPGs. What happens if you simply run out of bullets with no way to restock midway through an 80 hours game. There is no DM to throw you a bone and adjust availability on the fly. Start over ? If yes, how many times ?

Balancing non-infinite abilities/spells/tools has always been the bane of crpgs. Vancian, mana/stamina, per encounters, cooldowns, availability, risk, whatever the fuck ever, it all breaks down by mid-level or mid-game because there is no DM and you can't make the game simply hard dead-end you mid-way through. True there are some games that soft dead-end you and they are awesome but for every one of those games there is a legion of Rogueys crying "trapbuild".

Back to cooldowns. They suck because in most games that use them you end up cycling through them from the most powerful to the least until the enemy dies or you die. Every battle.
In Underrail you don't get to cycle through. You have 1 or 2 turns (in serious fights) before your wiped. And you have maybe 8 options available to you (on cooldowns). You have to choose witch 2-3 maybe 4 out of those eight will get you alive through those 1-2 turns without dieing and prefferably killing the enemy. That's why the system works. Would another system automatically achieve a better result. IMO no. Because this is about as good as CRPG combat gets. Would another system achieve the same quality. Of course. Would it necessarily surpass it. Not really.

The holy grail of perfect tactical combat in CRPGs is just that - an unattainable goal. Also, in before JA2: JA2 combat is really good but it gets repetitive and boring midway through the game. There, I said it.

In my opinion the only thing wrong with Underrail is the lack of a few (just a few) quality of life options. As for the story and C&C they are not that relevant since it's not that kind of game.

For me, Underrail and AoD cover most of the bases between them to satisfy all my inner %fags and that makes this kind of gaming year pretty rare.
 

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